8 incomplete evolution line in Boundaries Crossed

[Tash]

Is this really what it comes down to? *****ing about some extra commons and uncommons added to a set?
This is a large set. You didn't lose any cards. You just got extra cards.
If these cards weren't in the set, you'd get an extra few other commons and uncommons.
That's it.
This is worth complaining about?

Well, for one thing, the more uncommons there are in a set, the less likely you are to pull a particular one. Most of the sought-after Trainer Cards are uncommon.

 

[FSULugia]

Most of the time I just skip to see what the rare is and proceed to throw the rest of the cards in my common box. So they have different faces on them, a majority of them are useless anyway. Why does it matter what they are called? Its not like they were really preventing me from getting anything I really need. Sure the commons could be more playable but they are commons, their expectations are low to start with.

 

[Skitty]

Simple =/= bad, nor does complex =/= good. For that matter, Pokémon cards come in more varieties than just "good" (that is, reliably winning tournaments) and "bad" (a challenge to make a functional fun deck with).

Hitmonchan (Base Set 7/102) is a simple card, but was probably the overall strongest Pokémon in the Base Set. It was diminished by later releases, but wasn't completely out of the Unlimited (not that it was even known as that) competitive scene until the release of Neo Genesis, which included the only two cards so potent as to have been banned from a Modified Format: Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) and Sneasel (Neo Genesis 25/111).

It is a definite "turn off" to picking up a game to find out what you started the game with is pretty bad, whether you're a little kid who finds out his favorite card can't compete at all, or an older player finding out he just wasted money getting the cards meant to help teach him the game. "Vanilla" cards that lack complex mechanics. I would even question putting Evolutions in such a deck at all; while an important mechanic for Pokémon, it can wait.

To summarize, amongst the cards that don't see play, you'll find both the simple and complex; claiming the National Beginning Set must be made with cards no even remotely competitive is simply untrue. Making the cards simple is a good idea, but simple has been very successful in this game and others.

Think of the Begining Set like the Trainer Kits we have here, Take a look at the Pokemon in that link. There's a Starly without any of its higher evolutions and a Totodole without any of its other evolutions either. And even the holo "good" cards (like Manaphy and Lucario) in the Trainer Kits aren't that good either. The Begining Set is the same. But people don't complain about the Trainer Kits not being "good". Why? I'm assuming it's because the "good players" just figure that they don't have to buy it so it doesn't matter. But it's the same as this situation. The only thing they did different this time was throw the Trainer Kit of random "bad" legendaries (like that Manaphy) and unevolved basics (like that Starly) into the actual set.
Whether selling decks made just for teaching players how to play is a good idea or not isn't my decision. But apparently the Japanese Pokemon Company thinks it's a good idea, and they have been doing it for years.

 

[Maverick Nate]

Something that you have to remember is that there may be a lot more to play than just releasing cards Japan has gotten. With the release of the next Generation happening at the same time worldwide, the Trading Card Game has a bit of an issue being multiple months behind in sets. This may cause the releases of English sets more rushed than we would like, and less time being spent on how the specific Pokémon lines released interact with the Pokémon lines of sets yet to come. TPCi was probably more concerned with where a rotation needs to happen in the future than whether or not the Taillow in this set can evolve or not.

As for having the incomplete evolutionary lines in the sets, this is a bit more of a trickier situation to fix. It would need a considerable amount of foresight in order to rectify early enough

Each Japanese deck, mini set, promotional, and gift set release is designed the same way. They are designed to span the course of about three or four sets when they are released. Let's look at the evolutionary lines that were incomplete in Boundaries Crossed, and where they come from

ikachu: Japan gets Pikachu all the time. It's a really hard Pokémon to complete the evolutionary line for when they are released in English. Japan currently has 8 Pikachu in the BW on format (and this does not include the Jumbo Pikachu). They also only have 2 Raichu in the BW on format. Having a 4-1 line of any Pokémon is extremely ridiculous. Sometimes a lone Pikachu needs to happen.

:Chinchou: Chinchou was designed to go forward 3 main expansions, with the Chinchou/Lanturn released in the Japanese Spiral Force. When Boundaries Crossed was released, we didn't know these two cards existed. You also have to allow time for set printing and distributing, and you have an extremely large time span and necessary foresight in order to get this 2-1 line together in a set

:Gothita: Gothita and Gothorita were designed to go with the Everyone's Exciting Battle pack Gothitelle OR the Dragons Exalted Gothitelle. The English creators of sets would have either needed considerable time and foresight to prepare for the National Beginning Set's 1-1-0 line and translate them earlier for Dragons Exalted, or, they would have needed a lot more insight to put it with the Exciting Battle Pack line.

:Makuhita: Same exact situation as Chinchou, but the Makuhita/Hariyama pair of cards was released in Thunder Knuckle instead of Spiral Force. 3 sets worth of preparation would have been necessary, which would be difficult to ask since they probably aren't provided by Japan with that amount of information that far in advance.

:Klink: Designed to go with Plasma Storm's Klinklang. Only 3 months of foresight would have been necessary here, but TPCi was probably more worried about the fact that they need to release about 650 cards in 4 sets before a Generation 6 set needs to coincide with the release of the games in October 2013. Having a Pokémon that can't evolve is not the end of the world.

:Meowth: A similar situation to Pikachu but less extreme. There are 4 Meowth in format and only 1 Persian. Even 3-1 lines of a Pokémon are considered ridiculous. 4-1 is out of the question.

:Togepi: Needed to wait only 1 set, but it didn't. Mistakes happen. Lone Togepi doesn't end the world.

:Taillow: It's a lone Basic in the Japanese format. There is not a Swellow released in BW in any language. There probably will be a Taillow Swellow line in Japan's March set Megalo Cannon, but we wil just have to wait and see.

There are a few more honorable mentions from the national beginning set that I feel should just get a word.

:Croagunk: Correctly placed with the Freeze Bolt/Cold Flare Croagunk/Toxicroak

:Mienfoo: Correctly placed with the Freeze Bolt/Cold Flare Mienfoo/Mienshao

:Voltorb/Electrode: A full evolutionary line that could have worked anywhere, but probably should have been saved for the Electrode that has Magnetic Draw released in Thunder Knuckle. It would have provided a fuller evolutionary lines for drafts and prereleases and would have enhanced these events.

Keep in mind that they also needed Pokémon for a half lightning theme deck. 5 of this set's 8 Lightning Pokémon were available in the IceShock theme deck. When you remove too may of the Basics from any type, suddenly the Theme deck will not be as good, and that is not the direction we want those to go. The Theme Decks have been made considerably better as of late, and I don't want that to be ruined because someone thought it necessary to complain about something different without considering the side effects.

Additionally, 8 incomplete lines is not the worst it has ever been. One set that comes to mind is Neo Revelation. That set had a Skiploom/Jumpluff no Hoppip, Quagsire no Wooper, Kingdra no Horsea/Seadra, Raichu no Pikachu, Flaaffy/Ampharos no Mareep, Geodude/Graveler no Golem, Aerodactyl no Fossil, Houndoom no Houndour, Magneton no Magnemite, Snubbull no Granbull, Porygon2 no Porygon, Blissey no Chansey. This set had 12 incomplete lines. and this set was out of 64. 8 out of a 149 set is a much smaller ratio than 12 out of a 64 set. Additionally, at least every incomplete line from Boundaries Crossed could be played due to them all being basics and stage 1's. Jumpluff, Skiploom, Quagsire, Kingdra, Raichu, Ampharos, Flaaffy, Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Magneton, Porygon2, and Blissey were all evolutions that couldn't be played at all without cards from other sets.

Also, consider the only set during Black & White that has 100% complete evolutionary lines: Emerging Powers. They probably worked hard to bring together so many broken families for that set. The cards from EPO came from the Japanese Beginning Set, Black Collection, White Collection, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion Battle Strength Decks, Psycho Drive, Hail Blizzard, Dark Rush, and the BW-P Promotional cards. That is 10 different sources those cards came from. Most sets only get about 3-5 different origins for their cards. It probably took a lot of preparation, time, and effort to collaborate such a Jamboree of a set. Additionally, remember that Emerging Powers got an extreme amount of complaints because of the cards that were included in the set. Why should TPCi spend so much preparation and time to make a set 100% complete evolutionary lines when the last time they tried to do it, they got so much flack and complaints? It is soooo mind boggling and hypocritical to both complain about a set not being the best when they actually try to fill every evolutionary line, and complaining about broken evolutionary lines.

There's a lot more at play than just the English creators releasing a bunch of "bad cards" in sets. So much more needs to be considered before blindly complaining about such a trivial situation that the PTCG has.

 

[Otaku]

Something that you have to remember is that there may be a lot more to play than just releasing cards Japan has gotten.

So you're saying you aren't reading my posts? :lol: I addressed much more than just "releasing cards Japan has gotten."

I recognize that TPCi has the unfortunate job of shoehorning "extra cards" where they can. While it might make things even worse for a bit, I am hopeful the goal of releasing the next set of video games worldwide at the same time means the TCG sets will be similarly released; the other option is to proceed how they have been, and while not bad it isn't as good as they (Creatures, Inc.) can deliver within reason.

There is likely a narrow margin for release, but even within a two set span, there seems to be some better choices that could have been made. I am not trying to make "the better the enemy of the good", but I also won't invert that; as a consumer on a message board about this very product, as long as I am following the board rules, I get to express myself.* I get to ask "Wouldn't it have been better if..." and when someone says "No", I get to ask for the reason. I may not get a satisfactory answer, but we do get a discussion.

I've also addressed how the National Beginnings Set... doesn't look like that great of a beginning for the TCG. Even if it were, it seems odd that such a product is apparently worth releasing as such in Japan but not here. I recognize that perhaps it truly isn't, but that's the downside of the often necessity of keeping vital information secure; consumers like me have to work with the information we've got.

*Subject to change.

 

[Phazon Elite]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/10/ve5ysyny.jpg

Had to. And yes there were better memes I could have chosen.

 

[ChaosJim]

Pikachu's line
Chinchou 's line
Gothita's line (only Gothitelle is missing)
Makuhita 's line
Klink's line
Meowth 's line
Togepi 's line
Taillow 's line

The problem isn't that these cards got printed how they did. The problem is that the result is probably related to why we didn't get Ether. There are two ways to balance printing competitive cards and giving us Japanese promos without expanding set sizes.

1) Alternate which of those two things are done
2) Try to include a little of both in each set

I also feel like Pikachu seems to be a bomb of a promo card to be released in those single card blisters at major retailers. Ignorant parents won't as readily identify Minncinno or Axew (though I realize Axew is in the TV show) as they would Pikachu, or perhaps even Meowth.

Also, releasing a promo version of Pikachu in one of those blister things doesn't preclude him from being in the set (see: Klinkling, Charizard, etc blisters).

Maverick Nate makes reference to saving evolution lines that are filler for sets where they would improve the draft quality of the set. I really like this! Over the course of a given year, without changing how many different cards are printed, or the size of any given set, the /value/ of a pack can be increased. I really really like this! Someone else please get on this bandwagon with me.

 

[Frost]

I don't think the "filler" cards from National Beginning Set had anything to do with the cut Trainers. They more than likely wanted to save them to be used in Plasma Storm because A) Plasma Gale didn't have enough Trainers, B) some of them, like Hypnotoxic Beam, fit the theme of Plasma Storm better, C) they like to postpone better cards anyway (see Catcher being saved for EP) or D) some combination of any/all of the above.

 

[Otaku]

I don't think the "filler" cards from National Beginning Set had anything to do with the cut Trainers. They more than likely wanted to save them to be used in Plasma Storm because A) Plasma Gale didn't have enough Trainers, B) some of them, like Hypnotoxic Beam, fit the theme of Plasma Storm better, C) they like to postpone better cards anyway (see Catcher being saved for EP) or D) some combination of any/all of the above.

Why not put the National Beginner Set cards in Plasma Storm for point A?

Point B's problem is that you probably meant Virbank City Gym. :wink:

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

I'm placing an awful lot of hopes on the XY series but with the video games getting an international release perhaps they'll change how they release the TCG sets too. I mean, we get stalled sets not just because of translation time but English sets (especially the "base" sets) are held back until the game they tie in with is released, which then stalls the whole series.

There seems to be no harm in taking more tips from MtGs marketing strategies as it continues to be the top selling TCG overall worldwide, they release identical product all over the world. Each set is designed to work as a set and no promo is released that isn't a reprint from a card in a set, so there's never random filler in any particular countries expansions.

I really don't know how much communication happens between TPCi and the Japanese makers but if they all worked more closely together Pokemon could easily take the top spot in TCG sales, the collector base is sorted no matter what they do. They just need to improve things for players rather than doing things like removing important Trainers from sets and replacing them with starter set cards.

 

[Frost]

Why not put the National Beginner Set cards in Plasma Storm for point A?

National Beginning Set only reprinted four Trainers (the fourth was non-FA Cheren which we didn't get), but since Boundaries Crossed reprinted those as well as Great Ball TOO, they probably always planned on reprinting those basic Trainers no matter what.

 

[Otaku]

Frost, I am unsure if I comprehend your point. To be clear, are you stating the Trainers printed in BW: Boundaries Crossed that also happen to be in the National Beginner Set are yet another reprinting... such as with different art or the like and thus we should expect yet another reprint later to catch up? Or at least, never to get the National Beginner Set versions?

 

[Maverick Nate]

There seems to be no harm in taking more tips from MtGs marketing strategies as it continues to be the top selling TCG overall worldwide, they release identical product all over the world. Each set is designed to work as a set and no promo is released that isn't a reprint from a card in a set, so there's never random filler in any particular countries expansions.

What the supporters of this concept forget to realize is the repercussions of releasing the same product everywhere at once.

I will bring one recent example from the BW Series. There was a Japanese release named the "Team Plasma Battle Gift Set" in November. It was the equivalent of about 35 American dollars. It introduced a Brand new powerful Supporter, Ghetsis, whose text is "Look at your opponent's hand. Your opponent shuffles all Item cards there into his or her deck. Then, draw from your deck the amount of cards your opponent shuffled into his or her deck. " The Gift Set came with ONE copy. In order to get a playset of this 1 card, you'd have to pay 140 dollars, and this is one card. This completely turns the game into who has the most money will win. I would hate for this to happen.

Adapting the international release for our audience is by far a better idea in my opinion. I do not want the same releases as Japan. In order to do this, there needs to be preparation time, which would cause a slight delay. Yes, they could be closer, but they should NEVER be the same.

 

[Kooper Koushiro]

To be fair to the gift set, let's not forget what else it came with. You'd also be getting a full playset of Colress, Colress Machine, Hypnotoxic Laser, Plasma Energy, Plasma Frigate, and Team Plasma Badge.
There's also four deck boxes, and a total of 128 sleeves. (Plus the two Full Arts, and some other less useful things.)
Assuming this came out about the same time as its earliest cards (so you wouldn't have already gotten a playset) I'd say it's not a terrible value, especially if some Trainer prices (like Hypnotoxic) were to spike on singles price otherwise. (At the least I don't believe a card like Ghetsis would jump to Catcher range on the singles market. The gift set Ghetsis is also holo, so there would be some potential to 'trade down' later.)

More back on the general topic, and elaborating on what others have said, I'd like it if they released more Trainer Kits, or at least regularized their release. As far as I remember, there have been five of them since 2004 (Two in the ex block, then one each in D/P, HG/SS, and B/W).
If they released a new one every two years (which has been their rough average anyway), they could funnel a fair portion of the perceived "filler" cards meant to be simplistic and teach the game into a product meant to do just that. They could also use Trainer Kits as a way to keep the basic, "eternal" Trainers like Poké Ball, Potion, and Switch in the format without having to reprint them in a set. (Not to get too finicky on rotation, but I could imagine something like Trainer Kit 2013 (released in Fall 2013) rotates out in Fall 2015 when Trainer Kit 2015 is released.)
That's not to say all the "filler" needs to be crammed into Trainer Kits. By the time you have 12 Energy and 4-5 reprinted Trainers in each deck, that's only around 26 spots for Pokémon, and some of those would be duplicate Basics. I think it would provide leeway for things like Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Riolu to get put in sets where they fit, while the obscure ones like Taillow, Spinda, and Makuhita (who as far as I know aren't that popular with kids) could be placed in Trainer Kits. Popular ones like Pikachu, Meowth, and Togepi could go in either product.

Maverick Nate makes reference to saving evolution lines that are filler for sets where they would improve the draft quality of the set. I really like this! Over the course of a given year, without changing how many different cards are printed, or the size of any given set, the /value/ of a pack can be increased. I really really like this! Someone else please get on this bandwagon with me.

This is the benefit I'm most interested in. I'm not whining about the status quo, but if "an extra few other commons and uncommons" go toward helping the formation of evolution lines in limited formats, that gives them at least some use besides collecting. I know I personally would be more inclined to enter drafts, and since a draft is a tournament that sells product, I think it might be worth some consideration to improve draft quality of a set. Getting players more motivated to buy packs from their local game shop as opposed to primarily singles and/or boxes from online retailers is probably a good thing.

-Kooper, who'd like to see international releases delayed slightly, maybe a month, but definitely closer to the Japanese release.

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

What the supporters of this concept forget to realize is the repercussions of releasing the same product everywhere at once.
...
I will bring one recent example from the BW Series. There was a Japanese release named the "Team Plasma Battle Gift Set" in November.

And like I said in my post, MtG gas a policy of not printing cards outside expansion sets that aren't already in sets (the exceptions being a few multi-player cards released for casual sets like Commander, but they're not legal for "Modified" play, just to cover my bases). It's not just about releasing things at the same time all over the world but looking at marketing at the source. I'm sure a steady schedule of worldwide releases like MtG would make things easier for people everywhere. MtG gets 1 "Base set" with the staple, basic cards (things like Pokeball would go here) then 3 themed expansions every year now, like clockwork. Any gift/starter set style products contain only reprints, so whereas they might have rare special treatments (unique art, foils etc.) these products will only ever reduce the secondary market price of a card by introducing more of it rather than create huge demand for a competitive card from a limited print run product.

Japan might have found that the small 5 card packs do well over there to sell to kids with little money but returning to 10 card packs and introducing a regular, worldwide release schedule alongside not putting new cards in gift/starter sets would be better for the game overall I feel, especially for the players. 5 card packs could still be shipped to mass market locations such as chain toy shops and supermarkets to draw in the "pocket money" audience and the regular packs would go to game and hobby shops.

Anyway, that's enough of that... it'll make no difference what my opinion of what would be good >_< I didn't study business or anything so I'd never get the job to make a difference, I'm just theorymoning and theorybusinessing

EDIT:

I know I personally would be more inclined to enter drafts, and since a draft is a tournament that sells product, I think it might be worth some consideration to improve draft quality of a set. Getting players more motivated to buy packs from their local game shop as opposed to primarily singles and/or boxes from online retailers is probably a good thing.

Also this^ Limited right now kinda stinks. Pull an EX, add 39 energies, win = worst limited ever. I'd really like to see sets designed with Limited in mind which would justify some of the "filler" as it'd actually get used by drafters. Draft is a great thing to push if you want to sell cards, what better way to make money than sell players a new deck every week!? :S

 

[Frost]

Frost, I am unsure if I comprehend your point. To be clear, are you stating the Trainers printed in BW: Boundaries Crossed that also happen to be in the National Beginner Set are yet another reprinting... such as with different art or the like and thus we should expect yet another reprint later to catch up? Or at least, never to get the National Beginner Set versions?

NBS reprinted Poke Ball, Switch, Potion and Cheren. They had the same artwork they had in BW1. We got all of those cards (except Cheren) in Boundaries Crossed, but the fact that they also reprinted Great Ball -- which had nothing to do with NBS at all -- seems to me like they were always planning on reprinting some of the basic Trainers in case BW1 rotates this year.

 

[Maverick Nate]

NBS reprinted Poke Ball, Switch, Potion and Cheren. They had the same artwork they had in BW1. We got all of those cards (except Cheren) in Boundaries Crossed, but the fact that they also reprinted Great Ball -- which had nothing to do with NBS at all -- seems to me like they were always planning on reprinting some of the basic Trainers in case BW1 rotates this year.

Great Ball was in the Keldeo Battle Strength Deck, which was a sister product to the National Beginning Set, being released on the same day. It's also the place where the alt artwork normal Rocky Helmet came from. Both the Beginning Set and the Strength Deck should be considered as the New Beginning together for the card game, and the first releases of the B2W2 cards, instead of just the National Beginning Set.

 

[Broken Pokemon EX]

I'm sure most of you know, but these random cards with sugimori art are promos/battle strength deck cards in japan that TPCi just puts in our sets so we can get them. But the dumb part is that some of these pokemon's evolutions appear in the next set or two, so I don't see why TPCi would at least save these to be released along their normal set counterparts.

What's even dumber is that there are other japanese promos/battle strength deck exclusive cards from BCR evolution lines that didn't appear (ex, promo Wartortle and BS deck Squirtle). So why not at least give us these bad promos that at least go with the cards in this set?

No doubt TPCi has done a bad job at handling some of the BW set conversions from their japanese counterparts, but Boundaries Crossed has easily been the worst handling yet.

 

[rivershock]

You can't expect them to manage to include EVERY promo in sets. Besides, I could easily see them doing a box set/blister of some sort to give us the Squirtle and Wartortle alongside a reprinted Blastoise, like they did for things like Lillipup and Lilligant, or they could even be holding them for release alongside the shiny Blastoise presumably in Plasma Gale. ;p

I doubt they necessarily have the resources to plan too far ahead. And they're not going to hold a card like Taillow for potentially multiple sets in hopes of a Swellow showing up at some point. As it stands, I'd rather have these cards here than not at all, and also wouldn't want the swarm of decks/half-decks/promotional items in Japan. It's bad enough tracking down certain blister/box promos here, imagine if we got a bunch of box sets with exclusive cards every month or two.

 

[Otaku]

I doubt they necessarily have the resources to plan too far ahead. And they're not going to hold a card like Taillow for potentially multiple sets in hopes of a Swellow showing up at some point. As it stands, I'd rather have these cards here than not at all, and also wouldn't want the swarm of decks/half-decks/promotional items in Japan. It's bad enough tracking down certain blister/box promos here, imagine if we got a bunch of box sets with exclusive cards every month or two.

I actually would be surprised if the powers-that-be involved with Pokémon aren't aware of what they are doing, at least in general, several sets ahead of schedule, as part of being a competent business (and TCG business in particular). TPCi would know less overall that Creatures, Inc. but I would assume the latter designs sets more or less in "blocks" (even if they lack the true "block" structure of a TCG like Magic: The Gathering) because not doing so would create more work for maintaining game balance.

If you reference vaporeon's post, there are 8 "incomplete" Evolution lines, quite a bit even if vaporeon is proven wrong and this isn't the most we've seen in a single set before. Like vaporeon, I question why the cards that quite easily could have been worked into the next set: the Japanese Plasma Gale set has 79 cards (70 with nine "Secret Rares). There was also store promos that might be added to the main set over here (four more cards), and 11 from the half-deck.

79+4+11=94 cards.

This would have left enough room for the National Beginnings Set.

Our equivalent to Plasma Gale (BW: Plasma Storm) will clock in at 135 cards (before Secret Rares), so obviously stuff is being added to our set anyway. This could completely answer the question as to why all or at least most are cards to BW: Boundaries Crossed couldn't have been postponed until BW: Plasma Storm.

There may be excellent reasons for some of the cards present in the Japanese equivalent releases to BW: Boundaries Crossed cards to have been postponed, but for all that were "missing", it seems less likely. All in all, it just seems like almost bizarre choices for shuffling cards around.

I also question other things, cited in other posts on this thread, that vaporeon did not, but this is a long enough post already.