Abortion

[vanderbilt_grad]

My problem with abortion is that there are all sorts of shades of grey ... but so many folks seem to argue black vs white.

ZAKtheGeek was spot on in that one issue is how do you define life and when a life begins? Do you use science, religion, or something else? How this issue gets decided pretty much sets the terms on the abortion debate but there is little agreement among various groups of people. It's hard to have a rational abortion debate when some folks see any fertilized egg as a living person and others don't.

Pregnancy alters a woman's mind and body ... potentially forever. You can bring the "well she should not have done what she did" argument into things, but even if that's true does her biological "punishment" really fit the "crime?"

So many couples want children yet have trouble having their own. Adoption is very hard and very expensive for most couples like this. What happens after a woman doesn't have an abortion rarely seems to come up, but it's an important thing to consider IMHO.

I don't know what the answer is to this national debate, but I'm not happy with the political posturing on both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Re: Azure Kite

The way it came across to me was that Zak was stating the differences between pre and post fertilisation, not late pregnancy. From what I've read, a baby later in pregnancy can think and feel pain.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

Lemme get this straight. You say a human is only human once it has a human mind? Well what do you consider a human mind? A while before birth, the baby has no human mind, but when the baby comes straight out of the womb, it does have a human mind? Or do you mean a human mind is one that is intelligent, and can make its own descisions? The child won't have a mind like that for quite a while after birth. So until this time, you could still kill the child because its not human, because is has no human mind. Is that what your saying?

No. First of all, Magic_Umbreon has the right idea. I am not saying "the line" is birth. It's before birth. My human embryological neurology being extremely rusty, I don't know when exactly that is. Fortunately, I'm not drafting a bill here, I'm discussing a philosophical issue, so I don't think that detail is super relevant.

Second, what I mean by a human mind is simply a consciousness generated by a human. Obviously you can't remember your early life, but I have no idea how it impacts your eventual mental development, so again, I'm guessing conservatively.

By the way, do you have anything to say about the actual answer I gave to your question, or...?

 

[TheDarkTwins]

It's a woman's choice.

I agree with the above statement, 100%.

Drew

 

[master of puppets]

It's not a choice, it's a child.
If you aren't smart enough with sex and end up pregnant, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Obviously. And yet it still happens.

The only time I see an abortion as an appropriate option is if their is strong evidence of ****.
Otherwise, when the sperm and egg cell come together, you've got yourself a person.

No, an embryo. You've got yourself an embryo.

Honestly, I see people that consider abortion pretty heartless. It definitely shows a lot about ones character if they were to do/ consider doing something like that. I know its different, but someone who would do something like that is probably more likely to kill a man than someone who wouldn't.
But don't anyone turn that into some kind of extreme literal situation on me. lol

Oh, of course. Cus when a woman has her insides scrambled and her baby dies, it just makes her feel great and like she wants to kill some more.

Hey Gir, thanks for making a lot of sense. Not.
Did you not see the last sentence in my post? Don't turn this into any extreme literal situation? You did just that. Good job.
Yes, you do have an embryo, which just so happens to be the beginning of a person.

 

[Gir]

Hey Gir, thanks for making a lot of sense. Not.
Did you not see the last sentence in my post? Don't turn this into any extreme literal situation? You did just that. Good job.

You were the one foolish enough to believe that posting a rather outlandish comment would not result in a similar response, even with the plea that followed it.

Yes, you do have an embryo, which just so happens to be the beginning of a person.

But not a person. Just the beginning of one.

 

[master of puppets]

You were the one foolish enough to believe that posting a rather outlandish comment would not result in a similar response, even with the plea that followed it.



But not a person. Just the beginning of one.

That wasn't a "rather outlandish comment". And I wasn't foolish enough to believe that posting it would not result in a similar response.
Who would you see doing something sick or twisted before the other? The person who was stupid enough to have a child when they weren't ready, then killed it, or the person who was smart about sex and then later had a child when they were able to?
Now I'm not saying that people who consider abortion are sick individuals (although literal Gir here might...), I'm just saying that doing something like that would show a lot about one's character.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

If you aren't smart enough with sex and end up pregnant, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Well, obviously if you're "too stupid" to do something, then you shouldn't be doing it. That's just a tautology. But the question is, what if someone does do that anyway? That's basically the main question of the thread.

 

[master of puppets]

I never called you a sick individual, I just said you were too literal and you prolly think whatever I say is supposed to be taken to the exact literal extent.
I never slandered anyone.
If anything you're the one slandering me by calling me an ***...
So if anything can be taken the wrong way it must be a "ridiculous comment"? Thats one of the most "ridiculous" things I have ever heard.
This whole entire thread could be taken "the wrong way"! I guess its just one big bunch of ridiculous and should not have been posted in the first place?

You're right, Zak.
I think that unless it was ****, or it would hurt the mother in some way, there is no reason for abortion. I know a couple adopted kids and they are just fine.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

Guys, maybe you should calm down? You're arguing over empty comments that really don't impact the discussion. You're just going to get this thread locked.

You're right, Zak.
I think that unless it was ****, or it would hurt the mother in some way, there is no reason for abortion. I know a couple adopted kids and they are just fine.

I'm not sure what I'm right about, but thank you.

What, for you, is a good reason for an abortion? What makes **** a good reason, but not wanting/being in any position to have a baby not a good reason? Is there some specific criteria you're using?

 

[master of puppets]

I think that if a women was ***** (or I guess it could work the other way too...) and had no choice in the matter, then she shouldn't have to have that child. She had no choice at all, so she should have one now. But if she chose to keep it then I would definitely commend her on that.
If you're not in the position to have a baby, then you really shouldn't be doing things that could lead to that, however when that does happen I think that they should have to deliver the child. They shouldn't have control over a life like that because of their stupidity. If they are put in that position then they should give birth, then put the child into foster care.
Because of their dumb decisions they get to destroy something that would one day become a child?

 

[Shadow Zangoose]

I'm not going to get into it, but they may as well leave them as legal. If they were to outlaw abortion again, there'd still be people having it done illegally in private like back in the the early 60s. At least that's when I think it was, I'm not on top of my game today.

 

[Cyrus]

RE Shadow Zangoose: it wasn't just the 60's, but actually for many decades prior. Even Ambrose Bierce, a turn of the (20th) century author, writes of women having abortions performed.

While there's a fine balance between preservation of choice and life, abortion being made illegal in this day and age would lead to widespread horror. Be thankful that abortion doctors are at least trained professionals...

 

[master of puppets]

Very true, Cyrus.
Much rather a doctor who knows what he's doing handle that kind of stuff that some random person in a back ally.

 

[Shadow Zangoose]

RE Shadow Zangoose: it wasn't just the 60's, but actually for many decades prior. Even Ambrose Bierce, a turn of the (20th) century author, writes of women having abortions performed.

While there's a fine balance between preservation of choice and life, abortion being made illegal in this day and age would lead to widespread horror. Be thankful that abortion doctors are at least trained professionals...

I've never really looked up the history of abortion, just heard a lot of the horror stories from back in the 60s in particular. That's why I used it as my example.

And yeah, really. Thank God for that much, there's enough disease and garbage flying around as it is.

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

I bring up the point I made about fathers earlier. Is it really fair to call a woman stupid where a child is conceived in undesirable circumstances. I think that is almost sexist, both the man and woman are stupid, not one or the other. That's a tautology like ZAKtheGeek's comment. If the baby is a problem, it is exactly two people's fault and therefore only fair to consider/blame them equally. Both stupid or neither stupid, not just the woman.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

I think that if a women was ***** (or I guess it could work the other way too...) and had no choice in the matter, then she shouldn't have to have that child. She had no choice at all, so she should have one now. But if she chose to keep it then I would definitely commend her on that.
If you're not in the position to have a baby, then you really shouldn't be doing things that could lead to that, however when that does happen I think that they should have to deliver the child. They shouldn't have control over a life like that because of their stupidity. If they are put in that position then they should give birth, then put the child into foster care.
Because of their dumb decisions they get to destroy something that would one day become a child?

This is the position that really doesn't make sense to me. If abortion is "control over a life," then I just don't get how **** makes it okay. I don't think you can possibly justify killing a human being that never did wrong. It seems like you'd just be adding one immoral act on top of another.

Here's the part that I hate: the part where I speculate, and not just in my own head, what other people are thinking. It's really an incredibly arrogant act, telling somebody that I know what their real intentions are. So, if this doesn't apply to anyone here, then just say so and that'll be the end of it. However. It seems to me that making an exception for **** cases is very telling of a person's reasoning. It indicates that they don't want to see women get abortions in order to ensure that they are made to endure the consequences of their actions; the murder angle is just a cover because it's easier to justify. The murder angle would make abortions immoral even in the case of a ****, though, so this particular aspect of the discussion shows what's really going on.

Now, does anyone here actually use such reasoning? If you do, we can and should discuss it. I ask you to make it known.

Finally, about the "something that would one day become a child" thing... I repeat myself again... Do you think birth control is immoral? That's also stopping "something that would one day become a child." If you think an embryo is a person, then don't tiptoe around it and please just say so.

 

[secretsof2113]

Guys, maybe you should calm down? You're arguing over empty comments that really don't impact the discussion. You're just going to get this thread locked.

The warning about this had already been given. And now, to let this thread die. *Lock*