Admission for Events

[Reina Sierpe]

This seems like stating the obvious, but I think this is what it ultimately comes down to:
The only people who care about better prize-support are the small percentage of people who always top cut. Of course they don't mind paying $5-$10, they know the turn around on that will be great when they come in 1st-4th. 90% of the players at a pokemon tournament go, have fun playing, win no prizes, and lose no money. Are you going to ask the vast majority of players to start paying up for tournaments just so that small percentage of people who regularly top cut can get even better prizes than they already have?

 

[charcharchar]

Nothing would make paying admission worth playing for me.
Nothing.
There are weeks (many, many weeks) where I literally do not have five dollars in my bank account. Should I have to miss out on nationals because I had to pay my loan bill that week?
There are a loooot of college-aged kids living paycheck to paycheck that wouldn't be able/willing to front the money for these tourneys.

Literally, there is nothing that you could offer that will make paying admission worth it to me, especially if you passed the 5 dollar mark.

 

[chase4787]

Would you stop going to movies if some people got prizes but you might not?

It's not so much other people get prizes and you don't but more so other people get to see the movie and you dont

POP is a way for them to promote the game. Those who do well, strive to do better. Those who do poorly strive to get better, understand the game better, and win. In both cases, the players have to buy more cards.

If you push the competitive aspect and the open and fun aspect, you'll get both the fun crowd and the serious crowd. Introducing a price to participate will just push away and discourage new players, non-competitive players and broke players.

 

[Top Cut Comics]

Hey Jimmy,

This is a very touchy can of worms you are trying to open here. I completely understand where you are coming from on this issue and would support the game either way, fee or not.

I do however think many of the people here are completely missing the point in charging a fee. I will do my best to break it down.

First thing everyone needs to grasp and understand is that POKEMON IS A BUSINESS!!! Sure it’s a great game and many people support OP because it is a free event. However, there are others who stay away from the game for this very reason. Free events tend to keep product values low. It also keeps retailers from committing to something in which they have little opportunity to generate a revenue stream.

For those who care to dispute this claim, try going into a store that doesn’t do Pokemon. Try convincing them that it’s the next best thing and that they have been missing out for years. You will find that most of them are simply not interested. Especially when they hear events are free.

Most refuse to believe this but, Pokemon is entertainment. Stores, theaters, sporting events, etc, all charge to ENTERTAIN YOU! People pay to be entertained. Playing Pokemon is no different. You come into a store and sit for 5-8 hours and play. This is your choice of entertainment. Should you NOT compensate those providing it for you? Think about this… Where else in the world can you go for 5-8 hours for free and be entertained? Sports? Concert? Bowling? Skating? Quite frankly you can’t do much outside of entertaining yourself.

There are tournaments that charge $5 and each player gets a pack or promotional item for entering. This way, if they finish last they feel as if they only paid for a pack and got they value by playing all day. On the flip side of this Pokemon now becomes a small source of revenue for those hosting and will become more interested in holding future events. This is how the game will continue to grow.

I completely understand the “I don’t have any money” comments. At this point, in this economy, not many do. Think what the world would be like if EVERYONE could use that comment. What a sad state we’d be in. What if OP said that?

I was in support of the game when Wizards owned it and charged per event. I was happy to drive, pay for lodging, meet with my friends, and have a great weekend. I have had some of the BEST weekends of my life playing Pokemon. One thing I do not remember about them is the measly $5.00 I was asked to pay to participate.

In conclusion, I would not at all mind seeing the participation fee come back, especially if the players are compensated for their money. A simple suggestion would be charge a nominal fee ($5-10) which would go to the organizer or store. Then immediately compensate the player for that fee. Examples would be, packs, exclusive promos for such events, entries into future events, etc…

Another game I play charges $20 to enter their premier events. They are immediately given 5 booster packs to compensate them for their money spent. This way, they get something for their money AND the organizer has a revenue stream to entice them into holding future events.

Just my 2 cents,
Jimmy

 

[Raen]

Hey Jimmy,

This is a very touchy can of worms you are trying to open here. I completely understand where you are coming from on this issue and would support the game either way, fee or not.

I do however think many of the people here are completely missing the point in charging a fee. I will do my best to break it down.

First thing everyone needs to grasp and understand is that POKEMON IS A BUSINESS!!! Sure it’s a great game and many people support OP because it is a free event. However, there are others who stay away from the game for this very reason. Free events tend to keep product values low. It also keeps retailers from committing to something in which they have little opportunity to generate a revenue stream.

For those who care to dispute this claim, try going into a store that doesn’t do Pokemon. Try convincing them that it’s the next best thing and that they have been missing out for years. You will find that most of them are simply not interested. Especially when they hear events are free.

Most refuse to believe this but, Pokemon is entertainment. Stores, theaters, sporting events, etc, all charge to ENTERTAIN YOU! People pay to be entertained. Playing Pokemon is no different. You come into a store and sit for 5-8 hours and play. This is your choice of entertainment. Should you NOT compensate those providing it for you? Think about this… Where else in the world can you go for 5-8 hours for free and be entertained? Sports? Concert? Bowling? Skating? Quite frankly you can’t do much outside of entertaining yourself.

There are tournaments that charge $5 and each player gets a pack or promotional item for entering. This way, if they finish last they feel as if they only paid for a pack and got they value by playing all day. On the flip side of this Pokemon now becomes a small source of revenue for those hosting and will become more interested in holding future events. This is how the game will continue to grow.

I completely understand the “I don’t have any money” comments. At this point, in this economy, not many do. Think what the world would be like if EVERYONE could use that comment. What a sad state we’d be in. What if OP said that?

I was in support of the game when Wizards owned it and charged per event. I was happy to drive, pay for lodging, meet with my friends, and have a great weekend. I have had some of the BEST weekends of my life playing Pokemon. One thing I do not remember about them is the measly $5.00 I was asked to pay to participate.

In conclusion, I would not at all mind seeing the participation fee come back, especially if the players are compensated for their money. A simple suggestion would be charge a nominal fee ($5-10) which would go to the organizer or store. Then immediately compensate the player for that fee. Examples would be, packs, exclusive promos for such events, entries into future events, etc…

Another game I play charges $20 to enter their premier events. They are immediately given 5 booster packs to compensate them for their money spent. This way, they get something for their money AND the organizer has a revenue stream to entice them into holding future events.

Just my 2 cents,
Jimmy

When put this way, I can see the benefit of charging a small fee (5 bucks or so), so I thank you for offering a different perspective, it got me seeing the other side a little better.

 

[ogremarauder]

@ shopccnc- While your argument that supports event charges seems well thought and reasonable, I take pause with the "it's entertainment" argument. Paying any retail price for a pack of cards contributes (indirectly as pokemom pointed out) to the prize support already in place. So with that said, I feel my entrance fee is already paid for. Also, another person already said it but I'll say it again, 90% of event goers do not win an event-EVER. Charging would only benefit hardcore players. Why not make separate tourneys like the one in St. Louis?

 

[Top Cut Comics]

@ shopccnc- While your argument that supports event charges seems well thought and reasonable, I take pause with the "it's entertainment" argument. Paying any retail price for a pack of cards contributes (indirectly as pokemom pointed out) to the prize support already in place. I will disagree just a little on this point. The entry fee will NOT go to benifit PUI. Not even indirectly. This fee will go to compensate the store/person hosting the event. This could potentially allow PUI to lessen compensation to organizers and redistribute those funds to host more events(which I support) or provide better prizing (which I dont support)

So with that said, I feel my entrance fee is already paid for. So with this logic, you can go to a zoo and pet a cow simply because you bought a gallon of milk?

Also, another person already said it but I'll say it again, 90% of event goers do not win an event-EVER. Charging would only benefit hardcore players. This is why I stated to compentate each player immediately. This fee should not go to further compensate a winner of the event.

Responses are above in bold.
Jimmy

 

[Cyrus]

no i would quit the game if it cost money because im very cheap i think thats the worst idea yet so $0 is the way i like it!

Oh really? But you pay in time and effort at the very least, as well as (assumed) gas and cards. People who play card games are not very cheap.

But that's beside the point: if a tournament costs money, then there should be more prizes for doing well and/or winning in that tourney. I don't like the "pack per entrant" option because it dilutes the big prize pool; I'd rather just have $2 entry fees.

 

[Top Cut Comics]

But that's beside the point: if a tournament costs money, then there should be more prizes for doing well and/or winning in that tourney. I don't like the "pack per entrant" option because it dilutes the big prize pool; I'd rather just have $2 entry fees.

So Jonny,

If faced with this choice...

1) Entry fee of $5.00, every player gets a pack and prizing remains same as currently distributed.

Choice 1 allows for Organizers to collect payment for hosting event immediately from players. PUI does not have to compensate organizer and could reallocate that money to host more events.

OR,

2) Entry fee of $5.00, all prizes are increased at that one event. No pack per head for participating. Leave PUI compensating event organizers.

Choice 2 allows for ONLY the winner of the event to benefit from an entry fee. Everything else remains the same as the current structure.

Your telling me you would choose option #2?

Really?

I am certain you are not telling me that $2.00 a player is adequate compensation for someone organizing the event.

Jimmy

 

[Kayle]

After I've driven between an hour (BC Provs) and 6 hours (NW Regs) to get to a tournament, what's another $5-10 to say to the game "Hey, you guys are cool, thanks for all the stuff you do?"

Not saying I support one way or another, but if you charged for high tournaments I'd still go.

 

[tehmoe]

Nothing would make paying admission worth playing for me.
Nothing.
There are weeks (many, many weeks) where I literally do not have five dollars in my bank account. Should I have to miss out on nationals because I had to pay my loan bill that week?
There are a loooot of college-aged kids living paycheck to paycheck that wouldn't be able/willing to front the money for these tourneys.

Literally, there is nothing that you could offer that will make paying admission worth it to me, especially if you passed the 5 dollar mark.

if you have a financial issue with barely being able to pay your bills, then you have a priority problem. you shouldn't be spending your money on TCG's. You should be finding time to get more money to pay your bills. Your post points out a problem other than not wanting to pay for TCG. And yes, you should miss nationals because you had to pay your bill, because now you're saying that you have money to attend nationals (which includes lodging and food costs), something trivial in comparison to getting your bills paid, but not enough to pay off your loans. thats just dumb.

i'm in college pay my bills/loans and still find a way to make enough money to play TCG. I still have my priorities straight. school and life problems first, tcg somewhere towards the bottom of my list of things to do.

personally, i wouldn't have a problem paying to play as long as there is some sort of compensation. i agree with what Shopccnc said.

 

[thisguy]

First of all, these people saying they would quit the game if Nationals cost $5 to enter are pathetic. In many places outside the US, tournament organizers have to charge anyway because we don't get much support and everyone walks away with at least a pack. The way I see it, if it helps them run a smoother event and contributes to more prizes/scholarships/paid trips then I am all for it. tehmoe raises a good point, if you can't afford entry fees due to bills maybe you shouldn't crack open 2 booster boxes every time a set gets released.

 

[Politoed666]

You go to a movie and pay admission. They give out 0 prizes.

I also don't spend hundreds of dollars on cardboard to have a chance at seeing the movie.

 

[renfield89]

I think that it would be unreasonable for introductory level/mass weekend events like Battle Roads and City Championships to have an entrance fee. I feel that the prize support is already adequate for these low-tier events, given their K-value. I wouldn't change these at all personally.

Major events like States, Regionals and Nats, however, could benefit from increasing the overall experience.

-Live coverage. I'd like to see States and Regionals have one "feature match" per round, displayed on a big screen. This would promote a more competitive and exhilarating atmosphere for spectators and those who finish their rounds early by seeing the top table action, similar to how major sporting events have a jumbotron to enhance the experience. This would be decided by player's high rankings or past event production. At nationals, multiple tables could be covered and toggled between, with games coming down to time featured last.
-Trophies for States/Regionals. I personally don't mind the medals this year, but silly as it is, I can name players who aren't going to States this year because they were only playing for "trophies." Getting to say you won a "trophy" has a greater impression on those non-Pokemon players that you share your experiences with and can generate interest themselves. Trophies should come with an admission, and be more unique from year to year, with the tournament year and location inscribed on the trophy at least.
-More travel awards for Regionals. The awards/scholarships don't need to be increased for 1st/2nd, but perhaps $300 travel awards to 3rd/4th place for Regionals.
-Other Pokemon-esque, superficial environment enhancers, such as photo-op character appearances for like an hour halfway through the tournament, and an exclusive Wifi downloadable Pokemon pear event. Like say that this year I could download a Lv. 5 Snivy, Tepig or Oshawott (only one per person to enhance exclusivity) at random through a download at States with an INDIANA STATES original trainer ID and a move it couldn't typically learn, as an example, then a different Pokemon for Reg's, etc.

I would pay $5 for States and Regionals to incorporate these. $10-15 for Nationals.

 

[yoyofsho16]

Make it small, a couple dollars. Wouldn't really hurt anyone, and in an event with 150 people, that's 300 dollars more in prizes.

 

[Scubadude]

Nothing would make paying admission worth playing for me.
Nothing.
There are weeks (many, many weeks) where I literally do not have five dollars in my bank account. Should I have to miss out on nationals because I had to pay my loan bill that week?
There are a loooot of college-aged kids living paycheck to paycheck that wouldn't be able/willing to front the money for these tourneys.

Literally, there is nothing that you could offer that will make paying admission worth it to me, especially if you passed the 5 dollar mark.

How do you keep up with format rotation if you can't have 5 bucks for a states entry fee hypothetically speaking that is?

 

[NoPoke]

maybe charcharchar is one of the players that borrows a deck? Or borrows the expensive cards to complete his deck?

Not every player buys a box or boxes of every set.

 

[ShadowCard]

In my opinion, prizes should always cover the entire top cut. If the max top cut is 16, prizes should go down to the 16th place. Prizes shouldn't end at 8th when the top cut is 16. So, I would not want to pay anything if the prizes do not cover the max top cut, if not give all participants a consolation prize of some kind.

This year I've noticed my junior attendance collapsing. I guess a lot of parents are no longer willing to both pay and also lose their weekend to a pokemon event.

Even here where the premier events are free, Junior attendance is collapsing. Charge isn't the reason.

For those who care to dispute this claim, try going into a store that doesn’t do Pokemon. Try convincing them that it’s the next best thing and that they have been missing out for years. You will find that most of them are simply not interested. Especially when they hear events are free.

At one venue I asked about for a league, the owner seemed hesitant when I told him that even the premier events--like BRs and CCs which his venue would be able to host--were free.
I think a format where entry is charged and that money is used to buy prizes from the store is what he would have liked to hear.

 

[ChaosJim]

I have to charge for events. I charge $10 and even at that price I only just break even. I do supplement the prize pool so that everyone goes home with something. Everyone outside the USA looks at the free model you have for events enviously. Free is a powerful advertising tool.

This year I've noticed my junior attendance collapsing. I guess a lot of parents are no longer willing to both pay and also lose their weekend to a pokemon event. Personally I blame the bankers followed by the electorate for believing that the house price bubble was either sustainable or a good thing.

Do you feel like you need to provide a better experience because you're charging people for the event?
(Anyone who's been to one of NoPoke's events, are they better than most free events?)

I think another option that could be looked into when first looking at implementing this would be a freemium model where anyone could play for free, but if you want to extra swag you can pay the entry fee. This would at least show if players would be willing to pay the extra money if it meant they were getting better stuff for participating.

Freemium is a great idea. Prerelease style sleeves as a freemium option at Cities would be pretty sick. Avoids damaging the secondary market by flooding with playable cards.

@Jimmy
Thank you for every post.

@Renfield
Expressing what would make those events worth it to you was exactly what I was curious about, those sound like awesome improvements. I feel like I learned a lot about playing card games by watching video taped Magic: the Gathering matches.

Many retailers don't see the benefit of bringing people into their store. They imagine that people will not spend money, or that those who do would've spent it anyway. Worse still, people will spend LESS money because they won prizes. Most retailers who develop a relationship with their customers tend to not feel this way from my experience.

 

[charcharchar]

if you have a financial issue with barely being able to pay your bills, then you have a priority problem. you shouldn't be spending your money on TCG's. You should be finding time to get more money to pay your bills. Your post points out a problem other than not wanting to pay for TCG. And yes, you should miss nationals because you had to pay your bill, because now you're saying that you have money to attend nationals (which includes lodging and food costs), something trivial in comparison to getting your bills paid, but not enough to pay off your loans. thats just dumb.

i'm in college pay my bills/loans and still find a way to make enough money to play TCG. I still have my priorities straight. school and life problems first, tcg somewhere towards the bottom of my list of things to do.

personally, i wouldn't have a problem paying to play as long as there is some sort of compensation. i agree with what Shopccnc said.

I borrow cards, that's how I play.
I haven't spent money on this game in two years, since... oh, gee, I got a loan.
I play Pokemon because it's free to me. If it stopped being free, I would stop playing.
And, I work 20 hours a week, the maximum allowed by my job.
When I want to attend events that I have to travel for, I find more work.
When I go to tournaments, I carpool with other people and skip meals so I can actually afford to go.

Don't tell me what my priorities are.