Alex Frezza and 2010 National Champion Con Le Banned!!!

[Jaeger]

My name is Jay Hornung and I've played this game since 2004, so its fair to say I've been around for quite sometime. I've also made quite a lot of friends over the years and have a fair good reputation among the Pokemon community.

Two very close friends I've known for the last 5 years have recently found themselves on the ban list for 1 year. They are Alex Frezza (2 Nationals Top 8) and Con Le 2010 National Champion. I'll copy and paste Con's post from Facebook as why they were banned.

"Here the story.. I got accused for trying to earn play points for nationals, i came back around spring regional then mapped out how many play points i needed for nats. I had mapped out 17 exactly with my plan more than what i needed. Got 3 from regional, then attended 3 pre releases. at the 3rd pre release i went and signed up paid for my packs and then had to leave because of a family emergency, So Alex continued the tourney for me not thinking it was that big a deal to get the 2 packs. We figured there is no prize payout, no harm done and then got our story manipulated by certain people running it that lead to a 1 YEAR SUSPENSION, and take away Alex prizes for the whole year and worlds invite + 1 year suspension for a pre releases. Honest mistake turned into outrageous assumptions. I think this is absolutly nuts the penalty doesnt match the crime at all, and the pre release was only 1 point that wouldnt have mattered towards the motive. We didnt get a chance to even tell our side of the story yet and are trying to dispute this"



Now I've played this game for a long time and I almost never stick my neck out for people. However, in the case of Con and Alex I have to make an exception. I just don't feel right keeping quiet on this.

The first point that I know is going to be made is that there has to be more to this story and Con and Alex aren't telling the full truth.

If there is Con and Alex haven't told me, but this is why I believe them

-Alex already had a Worlds invite with over 500 championship points, nobody would risk a Worlds invite for anything that happens at a prerelease.

-Con didn't need the play points from the Prerelease and would have plenty for Nationals anyways.


I'm not saying what they did was right, but I honestly believe they saw no harm in it and Alex just wanted the 2 packs. Most competitive players just don't take prereleases seriously anyways and simply go to trade and hang out with friends since there is ZERO prizes on the line. It was also in there local area they felt like they were just among friends...hanging with the guys if you will. I certainly wouldn't say anything if one of my local friends did the same thing.

This seems minor compared to the large amounts of cheating that I see going on at Prereleases. Literally at the last prerelease I went to EVERYBODY around me was swapping cards to make their Prerelease deck better (I didn't btw). I honestly feel like this should be a stern talking to and a slap on the wrist, but a year ban and Alex losing his Worlds invite seems crazy.

Why should you care?

Neither Con and Alex received a phone call from Pokemon asking for their side of the story (once again I believe this because Gary Warren made a similar claim when he was banned). They were literally banned based on the testomony of another person and have almost no way to appeal this.

This personally scares the hell out of me that I could get banned without Pokemon ever talking to me or investigating the sitauation. Honestly this should care everyone of you as well.

All I'm asking is that Nintendo talk to Con and Alex, rethink their punishment, and consider rethinking how bans are handled, investigated, and the appeals process involved.

I'm not saying that some bans aren't deserved (Newman jumps to mine), but there really should be a good through investigation and a way for players to appeal their case. Con and Alex are great guys and great representatives the Pokemon TCG and its brand. These are the type of guys you want playing this game and you should be proud play this game. In the past they have been heavily devoted to this game and I really think they deserve to have an investigation and a few phone call made.

Sincerely,

-Jay Hornung

 

[psychup2034]

Neither Con and Alex received a phone call from Pokemon asking for their side of the story (once again I believe this because Gary Warren made a similar claim when he was banned).

This is the most frustrating part of the entire situation. I don't claim to have any understanding of the rationale behind TPCi's decision, and perhaps there is more to the story that we don't know about. As people who have been involved with Pokemon know, TPCi often works in mysterious ways, like Robin Hood, the Chinese Communist Party, or God. As players, we are often forced to accept the consequences of TPCi's unilateral decision making, lack of transparency, and absence of communication.

The fact that there is not a transparent appeals process is very frustrating and demonstrates a certain level of incompetence by the people who work for Pokemon that are responsible for dealing with player issues. Obviously, support.pokemon.com exists, but they are notoriously slow at dealing with these issues. There is no guarantee that an issue will get resolved in time, and often times, we get nothing more than a perfunctory automated response. It took me 59 days to get 2 Player IDs merged. It took regional champion 6 months to hear back about his travel award.

Pokemon has a reputation within the gaming community to have terrible customer service. Heck, Pokemon doesn't even have a phone line that you can call where someone will pick up and talk to you. I don't claim that Pokemon needs to do something about their customer service, I just think that they should.

 

[Professor Dav]

My name is Jay Hornung and I've played this game since 2004, so its fair to say I've been around for quite sometime. I've also made quite a lot of friends over the years and have a fair good reputation among the Pokemon community.

Two very close friends I've known for the last 5 years have recently found themselves on the ban list for 1 year. They are Alex Frezza (2 Nationals Top 8) and Con Le 2010 National Champion. I'll copy and paste Con's post from Facebook as why they were banned.

"Here the story.. I got accused for trying to earn play points for nationals, i came back around spring regional then mapped out how many play points i needed for nats. I had mapped out 17 exactly with my plan more than what i needed. Got 3 from regional, then attended 3 pre releases. at the 3rd pre release i went and signed up paid for my packs and then had to leave because of a family emergency, So Alex continued the tourney for me not thinking it was that big a deal to get the 2 packs. We figured there is no prize payout, no harm done and then got our story manipulated by certain people running it that lead to a 1 YEAR SUSPENSION, and take away Alex prizes for the whole year and worlds invite + 1 year suspension for a pre releases. Honest mistake turned into outrageous assumptions. I think this is absolutly nuts the penalty doesnt match the crime at all, and the pre release was only 1 point that wouldnt have mattered towards the motive. We didnt get a chance to even tell our side of the story yet and are trying to dispute this"



Now I've played this game for a long time and I almost never stick my neck out for people. However, in the case of Con and Alex I have to make an exception. I just don't feel right keeping quiet on this.

The first point that I know is going to be made is that there has to be more to this story and Con and Alex aren't telling the full truth.

If there is Con and Alex haven't told me, but this is why I believe them

-Alex already had a Worlds invite with over 500 championship points, nobody would risk a Worlds invite for anything that happens at a prerelease.

-Con didn't need the play points from the Prerelease and would have plenty for Nationals anyways.


I'm not saying what they did was right, but I honestly believe they saw no harm in it and Alex just wanted the 2 packs. Most competitive players just don't take prereleases seriously anyways and simply go to trade and hang out with friends since there is ZERO prizes on the line. It was also in there local area they felt like they were just among friends...hanging with the guys if you will. I certainly wouldn't say anything if one of my local friends did the same thing.

This seems minor compared to the large amounts of cheating that I see going on at Prereleases. Literally at the last prerelease I went to EVERYBODY around me was swapping cards to make their Prerelease deck better (I didn't btw). I honestly feel like this should be a stern talking to and a slap on the wrist, but a year ban and Alex losing his Worlds invite seems crazy.

Why should you care?

Neither Con and Alex received a phone call from Pokemon asking for their side of the story (once again I believe this because Gary Warren made a similar claim when he was banned). They were literally banned based on the testomony of another person and have almost no way to appeal this.

This personally scares the hell out of me that I could get banned without Pokemon ever talking to me or investigating the sitauation. Honestly this should care everyone of you as well.

All I'm asking is that Nintendo talk to Con and Alex, rethink their punishment, and consider rethinking how bans are handled, investigated, and the appeals process involved.

I'm not saying that some bans aren't deserved (Newman jumps to mine), but there really should be a good through investigation and a way for players to appeal their case. Con and Alex are great guys and great representatives the Pokemon TCG and its brand. These are the type of guys you want playing this game and you should be proud play this game. In the past they have been heavily devoted to this game and I really think they deserve to have an investigation and a few phone call made.

Sincerely,

-Jay Hornung

There is a process. It is outlined in their letters. They are following it. It is being reviewed.

Your quality of play, past performance or standing in the community do not make you exempt from disciplinary action, nor does it weigh into our considerations for duration of penalties.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

 

[psychup2034]

There is a process. It is outlined in their letters. They are following it. It is being reviewed.

That's great to hear.

However, it would make more sense that the "process" is more innocent until proven guilty instead of guilty until proven innocent. The fact that a ban can come before any communication is made between TPCi and the affected players is very scary. Perhaps this "process" of issuing bans can be reviewed to reflect modern/civilized sensibilities (like the idea of being innocent until proven guilty).

 

[K2theAblaM]

There is a process. It is outlined in their letters. They are following it. It is being reviewed.

Your quality of play, past performance or standing in the community do not make you exempt from disciplinary action, nor does it weigh into our considerations for duration of penalties.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

Sometimes, the only thing people want is to know that something is being done to right the situation. Thanks for posting and letting us know.

 

[Professor Dav]

That's great to hear.

However, it would make more sense that the "process" is more innocent until proven guilty instead of guilty until proven innocent. The fact that a ban can come before any communication is made between TPCi and the affected players is very scary. Perhaps this "process" of issuing bans can be reviewed to reflect modern sensibilities (like the idea of being innocent until proven guilty).

Pokemon creates the rules for our events, and are the sole arbiter of those rules. When you agree to participate in our programs, you agree to abide by those rules.

Drawing a correlation between the Play! Pokemon program, and the U.S. Legal system is the wrong correlation. A more accurate corollary would be a sports league, than the U.S. Legal system. When a soccer player is given a red card by an official, they are out of the game, period, and a direct red card would lead to suspension from future games, as determined by the league.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

 

[Jaeger]

There is a process. It is outlined in their letters. They are following it. It is being reviewed.

Your quality of play, past performance or standing in the community do not make you exempt from disciplinary action, nor does it weigh into our considerations for duration of penalties.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

I completely agree sir, your quality of play, past performance or standing in the community do not make you exempt, but I would like to say they are not "repeat offenders" or have been "problem" players in the past.

I am just glad to hear they have a clear appeal process. I am curious can you discuss how much investgation happens before bans are issued. I honestly don't know anything about it.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

Your quality of play, past performance or standing in the community do not make you exempt from disciplinary action, nor does it weigh into our considerations for duration of penalties.

As much as I want to say I agree with this statement, there has to be some account to where they are standing in points/past wins (having an invite) to accuse someone of accumulating play points for Nationals in a dishonest way. With both players already able to go to Nationals let alone worlds, that should stand out on their defense of why they wouldn't think of manipulating the system intentionally.

Also, perhaps pokemon could do a better job by not laying out it's penalties to a player without first hearing their side. The letter could easily just say "We have a reason to believe you might be manipulating the play point system, and would like to schedule or hear from you about these claims," then list the reasoning. Coming out front suspending/banning someone leads to misunderstanding, over dramatic responses, and more. I know this may take a bit more effort in the long run, but it allows players to be calm, and not miss events when they are being reviewed for their actions if they really did nothing wrong in the first place (if they wanted to do Battle Roads n what not

I'm not taking any stance on this issue, cause they may deserve the suspension based on a real story/credible source, but I do feel something needs to change on how someone gets penalized.

---------- Post added 05/16/2013 at 04:16 PM ----------

I am curious can you discuss how much investgation happens before bans are issued. I honestly don't know anything about it.

^yes, I don't know this either, so what I said could be wiped out if it was truly investigated before hand. But some of my thoughts still apply.

 

[ryanvergel]

"Pokemon creates the rules for our events, and are the sole arbiter of those rules. When you agree to participate in our programs, you agree to abide by those rules."

What rules were broken? Does it say in the rules another player cannot play in your place? Etc etc. This type of rule IS outlined in Magic, but is NOT outlined in Pokemon.

I am just curious to see if an actual rule was broken that led to this punishment. I'm reading through tournament guidelines now, and as far as I can see, Con Le did not violate any rules. He did not play under multiple POP IDs, did not lie to tournament staff, did not play under a different played ID, etc. What rule(s) did Con Le break in getting this year long ban?

Furthermore, I think it is a legitimate thing to criticize the process that IS in place. I am unsure as to why there is no e-mail correspondence, no phone calls allowed, etc. Do letters have to be reviewed and approved by the legal department first? If so, couldn't e-mails also serve this way? I think there are a few flaws in the process, and a major one is the difficulty in even communicating to you all. It can become expensive having to send physical correspondence through shipping/mail, and even then, it is slow and cumbersome, especially when this sort of thing is often time-sensitive.

 

[psychup2034]

Pokemon creates the rules for our events, and are the sole arbiter of those rules. When you agree to participate in our programs, you agree to abide by those rules.

Drawing a correlation between the Play! Pokemon program, and the U.S. Legal system is the wrong correlation. A more accurate corollary would be a sports league, than the U.S. Legal system. When a soccer player is given a red card by an official, they are out of the game, period, and a direct red card would lead to suspension from future games, as determined by the league.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

Let me continue to use your sports analogy.

In baseball, when a player is issued a suspension, that player has the right to appeal the suspension. When the appeals process is ongoing that player is allowed to continue playing games until the appeals process has concluded.

The fact that a soccer player is ejected immediately after being given a red card has been a point of contention in the past, especially when the player on the receiving end of the action that led to the red card is believed to be faking the injury/harm. Similarly, the fact that a player can be banned without being contacted first is a point of contention here.

I don't claim that Pokemon doesn't have the right to ban people with or without due process. Pokemon has the right to ban everyone whose name starts with the letter "J" if they really wanted to. I'm merely claiming that Pokemon shouldn't ban people without due process that mirrors an "innocent until proven guilty" mentality.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

What rules were broken? Does it say in the rules another player cannot play in your place? Etc etc. This type of rule IS outlined in Magic, but is NOT outlined in Pokemon.
.

I know that this is a rule, even if it's not written down. I know pre-releases you have to stay to the end, or at least the 2nd round to get a play point (which he didn't so I know that he shouldn't get one), but letting someone play like he did at a pre release shouldn't have been a years worth ban.


Thinking about it, they are at some fault for not asking the Tournament Organizer before hand on what is going on/if allowing him to take a spot isn't an issue (which I see they shouldn't have a problem, but wouldn't give you a play point).

 

[Vegeta ss4]

I think the use of a soccer red card in this same context is a bad idea.

Here is why.

In soccer, under most circumstances a red card MUST be warranted. In order to receive a "hard" red, in most instances a warning precludes before the incident that warranted the red card, until you repeat again in which you receive a red card. The only way to receive a red card without a warning is for a player to commit a foul that is 100% intentional with intent on hurting the player. In this instance, there were NO warnings, I understand where you can go with this.
You can simply say the rules are the warning, but in soccer we have the same set of rules that are NOT a warning.

I know this because I am an actual soccer referee, as does my licensing for it state. So let's not use "soccer" as a scapegoat here when clearly, it just backfired on you.


Now, onto the events. I would also like to know the process as well. I think this is good information for all people involved in this terrific game to know. I do think that innocent until proven guilty is the correct "play" here. Say someone gets in trouble for stealing cards, said player gets banned for a year(usually this will be a bigger ban). He then stops collecting the current set because he can't play, basically forfeits the season only to find out the real thief admits to the crime. Does the player get any kind of incentive to know that he lost his whole season because of a lack of investigation and the fact that he was guilty until proven innocent?


I think you guys for the most part handle things correctly, but this latest judgment call you made seems unwarranted.

Here again are a few things I want to know about.
1) What is the actual process of banning a player and what is the criteria for the time.
2) How quick is the process of appeal and lifting of the ban?
3) Why is it guilty until proven innocent?
4) What happens when a player is incorrectly banned? Does TPCi give them any sort of incentive to stay in the game that wrongly banned a player?

5) A question about the incident. If it was incorrect, why did the judge or PTO not say anything prior to the event stating whether or not it was allowed? If they did not do so until after the tournament was over are they liable for any penalties as well?
Those are just a few rants and questions.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

Being a part of the game for so long, why would someone not go directly to the person organizing the event to ask if the act was allowed? It was wrong of them to assume that someone can pay to play in an event under their name,t hen let someone else take over. I in no way agree with banning them for a year over it at all, but they really should have known to ask and not just assume.

 

[Raen]

Being a part of the game for so long, why would someone not go directly to the person organizing the event to ask if the act was allowed? It was wrong of them to assume that someone can pay to play in an event under their name,t hen let someone else take over. I in no way agree with banning them for a year over it at all, but they really should have known to ask and not just assume.

I dont think anyone here is arguing that they probably didnt do the exact right thing here. But it is SUCH a minor thing that a year long ban makes no sense at all.

 

[OldMan_GG]

Just for the sake of clarity, what are the offenses that merit a 1-year ban as outlined by the current rules?

 

[Swordfish1989]

If what Jay described really is all that they did, I think a more appropriate punishment would've been to merely remove the Play Point he had earned, and maybe a warning not to do it again. I mean, we're talking about a pre-release here. It's not like the other guy stepped in during a Battle Roads, where that actually matters.

I think what should really count here is intent. They did not intend to cheat or deceive or lie. They simply made a mistake, which I'm sure they will never make again.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

I find the Red Card analogy inaccurate. Everyone here knows that the opponent is forced out immediately if it attacks the holder. The holder of this item will still take damage from the attack. One-time use.

That said, while it would be polite for Play! Pokemon to inform them that they were believed to be gaming the system in advance and that action would be taken for it, the behavior in the first place seemed to fit what they were concerned about. I'm not saying that they weren't intending to, or that it isn't a system that seems to be designed to be gamed, but that's what seems to have occurred.

 

[ddayarg]

Pokemon creates the rules for our events, and are the sole arbiter of those rules. When you agree to participate in our programs, you agree to abide by those rules.

Drawing a correlation between the Play! Pokemon program, and the U.S. Legal system is the wrong correlation. A more accurate corollary would be a sports league, than the U.S. Legal system. When a soccer player is given a red card by an official, they are out of the game, period, and a direct red card would lead to suspension from future games, as determined by the league.

Thank you,
Professor Dav

The difference is that in any sports league players, managers, and officials not only have a direct line of communication (for appeals, questions/comments/concerns, etc), they also have many committees and groups that decide on rules and game play and anything related to the sport.

I understand Pokemon TCG is part of a much bigger thing (which is Pokemon and that is also part of a bigger thing which is Nintendo), therefore the company has the right to pursue whatever is in their best interest since it is their product.

HOWEVER, when the element of organized competition is introduced, that changes things. I've only been around for about 2 years, but I definitely see many issues, ideas, and concerns players have that go unheard because "that's just what TCPi has decided so that's it." The makers of chess pieces and boards can use whatever material they want and sell it at any price, but chess competitions have rules, organizations, and procedures as well as constant 2-way feedback and communication. Since Pokemon is a combination of product and competition, they should definitely rethink how they handle situations and decide on things.

TL;DR
Sports have committees that take into consideration everyone's best interests and Pokemon should do the same.

 

[Heyfonteleaks]

Here is a piece of information that seems to have been left out or missed. Maybe they don't think it matters but I think people should at least know this.

The week before at a prerelease, Alex or Con I don't know which, asked if Alex could play as Con, jokingly. The judge the player asked said no and told them there would be consequences if they did. This is secondhand information told to me by a respectable New England player who heard it said first hand. Being warned first and letting it happen anyway has some merit in this case at least in my opinion.

Information to be considered.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

Here is a piece of information that seems to have been left out or missed. Maybe they don't think it matters but I think people should at least know this.

The week before at a prerelease, Alex or Con I don't know which, asked if Alex could play as Con, jokingly. The judge the player asked said no and told them there would be consequences if they did. This is secondhand information told to me by a respectable New England player who heard it said first hand. Being warned first and letting it happen anyway has some merit in this case at least in my opinion.

Information to be considered.

and this is the missing key to the puzzle.

Maybe a one year ban is too much, but having evidence like this will make it easy to penalize players on the spot.