Are donks good for the game?

[lolganium]

+1 Ditto :thumb:

If you don't want your basics being donked, then run cards that prevent it! Unown G is perfect for countering Machamp. "Skilled" players who hate donk decks can't complain about not getting to show their deck building and hard work when they overlook aspects of the game. At 2009 worlds, I guarantee that the winners will have a deck that covers T1 donks to the best of it's ability while still being able to run the drawn out game. When I run my Dusk/Zong/Cressy deck, I run 4 call energies and 2 Unown G....it hasn't been donked yet.

thanks dude :thumb:

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hurricane warty: if you say (in theory) go to as many tournies as you can and come 4th in each (on the assumption that the tourneys have a good turn out) and therefore dont even need to go nats to get to worlds... then does that really make you a deserving person to go worlds? say you go nats and go 3-4 (i dunno how many rounds in your nats) but then that dont matter because you've got enough k-value to get an invite anyway, then are you really at world championship level? i would say the answer would be no.

i remember when top x at nationals got you an invite to worlds, and top x in the citys and states gotyou an invite to nationals. that is the simple and obvious logic to seperating world class from national class or just general n00by nobody. the fact that you can now drive to cities, just do only so well in those and get to worlds is a complete joke, you're not world class ... you just got a car with good fuel consumption.

a real player, who wanted to consider themselves a world class player would aim not for points but for a top cut at their nationals. its proof that they deserve to be there; simply get were declorated as the best in their country and therefore able to get declaration as one of the best out of every participating country.

thats the point i was, and am now making.

 

[Austino]

Winning is important in any competitive venue, but I've noticed that a LOT of players take the game too seriously. Winning with a donk could be either good luck or good deckbuilding, but a win is a win no matter how you look at it. Players who get irate because of a donk loss in a card game should step back and re-evaluate their priorities. Following spirit of the game is something that can end up being better than a few points on your premier rating. I demolished a Regigigas deck (without donking him) in CCs, but gave him the win because I had to leave early. He went on to win CCs. Yeah, my rating took a hit, but it didn't do much.

Donk decks, like all decks, need a certain amount of luck. Whether it's drawing into helpful cards, or having your best cards prize-locked, even the best decks have a bit of randomness. Saying that donk decks can only beat your uber-awesome deck because of luck is a bit ridiculous and naive. Being able to beat someone in 1-2 turns is something that can take just as much skill as setting up a 5 pokemon combo that takes 2-3 turns for late game wins.

I run pretty solid decks, but have terrible luck when it comes to league/championships. I was about to make top cut when I started out with a lone Azelf, and 5 needed cards prize-locked (2 Claydol, 1 Machamp, 2 Bebe's, and a Rare Candy). I got slaughtered that round, knocking me out of tops. I told the player good game, accepted a legitimate loss, and asked for a rematch . I ran over his kingdra, even with him getting a decent start. Just because someone gets a bad start or beats you with a donk doesn't mean they have a terrible deck or are just lucky.

 

[the_sniper]

a real player, who wanted to consider themselves a world class player would aim not for points but for a top cut at their nationals. its proof that they deserve to be there; simply get were declorated as the best in their country and therefore able to get declaration as one of the best out of every participating country.

thats the point i was, and am now making.

This i agree with 100%. But Nats. is one event with around 500 people in masters alone the past
2 years. In case you haven't noticed, it is NOT exactly easy to play 2nd day. It is also the 1
tournament I want to win- even more than I'd like to win worlds.

There will be people who skip Nats. to preserve their invite I'm sure. It's happened before and it will
happen again. Guess it all comes down to how bad you want to be our National Champion
as opposed to going to worlds.For me that is a no brainer.

Also, I've found that if you do well at nationals, your almost assured an
invite to the dance.But I've also seen numerous players play themselves out of an invite at Nats.
with poor showings.

Regardless of my rating, I'll see you all at Nationals- my favorite tournament of the year.

 

[lolganium]

This i agree with 100%. But Nats. is one event with around 500 people in masters alone the past
2 years. In case you haven't noticed, it is NOT exactly easy to play 2nd day. It is also the 1
tournament I want to win- even more than I'd like to win worlds.

There will be people who skip Nats. to preserve their invite I'm sure. It's happened before and it will
happen again. Guess it all comes down to how bad you want to be our National Champion
as opposed to going to worlds.For me that is a no brainer.

Also, I've found that if you do well at nationals, your almost assured an
invite to the dance.But I've also seen numerous players play themselves out of an invite at Nats.
with poor showings.

Regardless of my rating, I'll see you all at Nationals- my favorite tournament of the year.

im assuming this is anmerican nats we're talking. im in england so i havent seen the whole 500 people thing.

but thats for agreeing with me people!

austino: yes man you nail it! people confuse skill with their opponents bad luck, and then when their luck runs out ... they just assume they've been had! and yes turn 2 decks are a completely different ballgame to a setup deck, requires just as much, if not more skill to build and play (there are less boundary's for staple cards in a turn 1 or 2 deck, more choice, more hard work testing).

 

[BANGINBOX]

I am posting a "from the hip" reply to the topic.....

My thoughts are as follows.....

If it werent for donks, bad players would win even less.....

this is the way Pokemon keeps the game open to all players, not just the elite.

Just a note.... I played in a 5 round tournament and took a total of 7 turns. This is NOT what the game should become.

Jimmy

 

[NoPoke]

You are not alone in your 'from the hip' thoughts Jimmy.

I don't object to having a few games that only last 7 turns in total. What I would find objectionable is if that was the whole tournament experience for the day. A good tournament experience means players spending time at the tables playing their cards and not waiting most of the day for the next round to start.

 

[afstandopleren]

Just a thought, how about forcing experienced players to use non-donk decks and force newbies to play CHamp, Kingdra and other Donk decks?

 

[Everwind]

The solution is rather simple. nobody can attack the first turn. This would help immensely prevent donks, no gurantee obviously, but it would help somewhat. It would negate sableye obviously, but we all know that is a pretty broken card.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

The solution is rather simple. nobody can attack the first turn. This would help immensely prevent donks, no gurantee obviously, but it would help somewhat. It would negate sableye obviously, but we all know that is a pretty broken card.

It would also kill things like Pachirisu (GE) which is one of the best startup pokemon in the game. Getting 3 benched Pokemon for 1 energy & an attack is one of the best donk avoidance strats around.

One of the main reasons that no one runs starters anymore is Dusknoir (DP) & Dark Palm. Getting stuck with a starter on your bench along with a support Pokemon like Claydol or Uxie lv X limits you a great deal. Certain decks like Torterra that need 2 support Pokemon (Claydol & Sceptile) simply can't afford to be in that situation most of the time.

The other reason folks don't use starters is Call Energy. It gives you the advantage of setting up without "wasting" an energy attachment on a starter. That “saved” turn can be critical towards getting your main attacker going quickly, and speed is one of the win conditions of just about every deck.

Essentially people are both playing smart (don’t get caught in a Dusknoir bind … I’ll run Call instead of a starter so that I can have an energy attachment advantage) ... but they are gambling too. Gambling that Dusknior will be in enough decks they face that day. Gambling that the energy attachment that they save will not lead to a donk.

There is another factor as well. The coming into play powers tempt many players to hold an Uxie or Azelf in hand rather than play them down to start with. I’ll refer you here: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1298993&postcount=14 … look at the number of times his opponent gambled on holding the Elf and got donked as a result. I actually had this happen to me once as well. My opponent, a very good player, started a lone Magikarp and had an Uxie in hand. I started with the Shiny Duskull. I won the coin flip. When we turned our cards over we both realized that I had the win. Had he played it safe and started with Uxie he very well may have won the game.

In short the factors leading to donks involve player behavior quite a bit as well.

Not allowing first turn attacks would be silly IMHO and actually PUNISH the conservative players who use things like Pachirisu to avoid donks.

I am posting a "from the hip" reply to the topic.....

My thoughts are as follows.....

If it werent for donks, bad players would win even less.....

this is the way Pokemon keeps the game open to all players, not just the elite.

Just a note.... I played in a 5 round tournament and took a total of 7 turns. This is NOT what the game should become.

Jimmy

Jimmy, thank you for posting here. I think that I have to agree with what you said 100%.

 

[Austino]

EDIT: Vanderbilt beat me by a few seconds!

There's a plain and simple fact that the cards are made available to everyone, so if you don't like T1 KO's, [DEL]join them[/DEL] then use cards that prevent it; any half-decent player can avoid donks.

Run:
Call Energy
Stronger than 50HP basics
Basics that fetch you a bench (Pachirisu, Sableye, etc.)
More basics

When playing against my brother's T-Tar, I would sometimes have to start with a pixie on the bench just to prevent being donked by sableye. Yeah, I wasted a valuable poke-power, but it was to prevent a LOSS. Anyone who is behind the argument that donks prevent you from playing out a game like it should be has no excuse when they don't put a card down on their bench knowing that your opponent has either sableye, kingdra, or machamp.


*Turns the tables*

As far as being donked, it sucks! I'm not going to lie! I hate it when I lose coming out of the gate with a decent hand T1/2. However, it's part of the game and I accept it for what it is. If I know that my opponent's deck is a mid-late game deck and he donks me, then it was luck (that the deck donked me, not beat me). If I get donked by Champ, Kingdra, or Sableye, then that is a successful deck that's put together well. It served it's desired objective in setting up within 1-2 turns for a win. I am not going to have a vendetta against inanimate objects or my opponent over it.

 

[Jaeger]

any half-decent player can avoid donks.

No you really can't

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Jaeger's correct. My gigas had something like 16 basic Pokemon. Only 4 had less than 70 HP. The 2 Lunatones had 60 and the 2 Unown Gs had 50. With 16 basics your odds of starting with 2 or 3 is pretty good ... but I lost count of the number of times that I had junk like a lone Unown G start. It happens and even with a "safe" deck like this Sableye could sometimes get donks ... never mind Machamp or Kingdra.

Decks can and should be build with the idea of avoiding donks, but you are at the mercy of the draw when selecting actual game starts.

 

[Austino]

Yes, you can. A well built deck has multiple ways of avoiding donks. With 4 call energy, an average of 8-10 basics, tech basics (chatot, pachirisu, farfetched, or sableye) it's not that hard to avoid donks....and that's only counting T1...going second gives you SO many more options from great ball, quick ball, roseanne's research, luxury ball, and bebe's search. There are plenty of ways to avoid it.

Yeah, you may have a consistent top cut deck, but if you don't have the cards to prevent being defeated in the first 2 turns, is it really that good? Donking is just as much an aspect of the game as spread, tank defense, speed, etc. and you have to take donking into consideration when building your deck just as much as considering the other factors.

 

[yoyofsho16]

You kids think it's bad? Wait till PT comes out... there will be Toxicroak and Rampardos donks EVERYWHERE. Kingdra gets T1 60 a lot of times, but Toxicroak gets it 99/100 if you are going second, it's nuts how consistent the Galactic deck is...

And what about RAMPARDOS?!?!? That is the craziest donker I have EVER seen. It KOs almost every basic, and with a pluspower or 2, KOs every legal basic.

 

[Ignatious]

Yes, you can. A well built deck has multiple ways of avoiding donks. With 4 call energy, an average of 8-10 basics, tech basics (chatot, pachirisu, farfetched, or sableye) it's not that hard to avoid donks....and that's only counting T1...going second gives you SO many more options from great ball, quick ball, roseanne's research, luxury ball, and bebe's search. There are plenty of ways to avoid it.

Yeah, you may have a consistent top cut deck, but if you don't have the cards to prevent being defeated in the first 2 turns, is it really that good? Donking is just as much an aspect of the game as spread, tank defense, speed, etc. and you have to take donking into consideration when building your deck just as much as considering the other factors.

No player, under any circumstance, force those cards into their opening hand. Sure, you can increase all the odds however you like, and have fun with it, however, this is never, EVER, provide you the title "undonkable".

 

[Alazor]

Well you could play 4 Stormfront Snover (Hide), 4 Call Energy, and 4 Pachirisu, and 4 Roseanne's, but still you're taking chances.

 

[Everwind]

People seem to not understand random probability and that in order to truely prevent a donk you would need to run an excess of 20 basic cards to even start to get reliable chance at avoiding a singular basic start. Is that a playable deck?

Oh so now I can only run basics that have a minumum of 70 hit points? Gee that doesn't limit which decks I can use now does it?

Call Energy does not help with Sableye, now does it?

 

[ryanvergel]

any half-decent player can avoid donks

No, you really can't.

People seem to not understand random probability and that in order to truely prevent a donk you would need to run an excess of 20 basic cards to even start to get reliable chance at avoiding a singular basic start. Is that a playable deck?

Oh so now I can only run basics that have a minumum of 70 hit points? Gee that doesn't limit which decks I can use now does it?

Call Energy does not help with Sableye, now does it?

At least you understand! I love this "advice" we get:

Run:
Call Energy
Stronger than 50HP basics
Basics that fetch you a bench (Pachirisu, Sableye, etc.)
More basics

I'm sure that any deck that CAN run call energy WOULD.
Stronger than 50 hp basics? Let me just ask PCL to release a 70hp treecko for me. Or let me avoid the 95% of decks whose basics are susceptible to donks.
More basics that get me other basics- this only helps if you start with them!
More basics? The increased odds of starting with more basics in hand by adding another basic to the list is small, and is not worth it. You can't just fill a deck up with basics hoping not to get donked. You also can't really add basics that aren't needed to just avoid a donk.

I'm not going to ruin my deck in order to boost my odds of not getting donked in these particular matches by like 5-10%. That's just bad and poor deck building.

 

[homeofmew]

Donks are a part of the game, and comes into statistical probability..

 

[Ardoptres]

Tell that to Fulop. Knowing his skill level( one of the best!! ) and what goes into his builds
( not to mention his current ranking) I bet he doesn't agree with your post.

I know I don't.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the sarcasm was clear: I was sarcastic.

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People started playing Leafeon during the so called 'reign' of Kingdra.
That is why Kingdra failed during BRs.

And to think I actually thought you had just a little knowledge about this game...

Kingdra dominated BRs, and it's still in the high end of Tier 1.

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Just a thought, how about forcing experienced players to use non-donk decks and force newbies to play CHamp, Kingdra and other Donk decks?

Are you kidding? Loloolol.

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Yes, you can. A well built deck has multiple ways of avoiding donks. With 4 call energy, an average of 8-10 basics, tech basics (chatot, pachirisu, farfetched, or sableye) it's not that hard to avoid donks....and that's only counting T1...going second gives you SO many more options from great ball, quick ball, roseanne's research, luxury ball, and bebe's search. There are plenty of ways to avoid it.

Yeah, you may have a consistent top cut deck, but if you don't have the cards to prevent being defeated in the first 2 turns, is it really that good? Donking is just as much an aspect of the game as spread, tank defense, speed, etc. and you have to take donking into consideration when building your deck just as much as considering the other factors.

Tell that to all the good players in the world. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

You start with a lone basic going first. No Call energy. (you don't even play it in decks like Kingdra). What are you gonna do? Put in more basics? Lolol.

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EDIT: Vanderbilt beat me by a few seconds!

There's a plain and simple fact that the cards are made available to everyone, so if you don't like T1 KO's, [DEL]join them[/DEL] then use cards that prevent it; any half-decent player can avoid donks.

Run:
Call Energy
Stronger than 50HP basics
Basics that fetch you a bench (Pachirisu, Sableye, etc.)
More basics

When playing against my brother's T-Tar, I would sometimes have to start with a pixie on the bench just to prevent being donked by sableye. Yeah, I wasted a valuable poke-power, but it was to prevent a LOSS. Anyone who is behind the argument that donks prevent you from playing out a game like it should be has no excuse when they don't put a card down on their bench knowing that your opponent has either sableye, kingdra, or machamp.


*Turns the tables*

As far as being donked, it sucks! I'm not going to lie! I hate it when I lose coming out of the gate with a decent hand T1/2. However, it's part of the game and I accept it for what it is. If I know that my opponent's deck is a mid-late game deck and he donks me, then it was luck (that the deck donked me, not beat me). If I get donked by Champ, Kingdra, or Sableye, then that is a successful deck that's put together well. It served it's desired objective in setting up within 1-2 turns for a win. I am not going to have a vendetta against inanimate objects or my opponent over it.

what if you aren't lucky enough to start with Call Energy?

Kingdra does 60 dmg. Machamp KOs no matter what. more than 50 HP isn't helping unless you play vs. Sableye.. And not all basic pokemon with 60+ evolve to a good pokemon.
Pachirisu? Lolll.

You can't just run more basics. That would ruin your deck.

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Winning is important in any competitive venue, but I've noticed that a LOT of players take the game too seriously. Winning with a donk could be either good luck or good deckbuilding, but a win is a win no matter how you look at it. Players who get irate because of a donk loss in a card game should step back and re-evaluate their priorities. Following spirit of the game is something that can end up being better than a few points on your premier rating. I demolished a Regigigas deck (without donking him) in CCs, but gave him the win because I had to leave early. He went on to win CCs. Yeah, my rating took a hit, but it didn't do much.

Donk decks, like all decks, need a certain amount of luck. Whether it's drawing into helpful cards, or having your best cards prize-locked, even the best decks have a bit of randomness. Saying that donk decks can only beat your uber-awesome deck because of luck is a bit ridiculous and naive. Being able to beat someone in 1-2 turns is something that can take just as much skill as setting up a 5 pokemon combo that takes 2-3 turns for late game wins.

I run pretty solid decks, but have terrible luck when it comes to league/championships. I was about to make top cut when I started out with a lone Azelf, and 5 needed cards prize-locked (2 Claydol, 1 Machamp, 2 Bebe's, and a Rare Candy). I got slaughtered that round, knocking me out of tops. I told the player good game, accepted a legitimate loss, and asked for a rematch . I ran over his kingdra, even with him getting a decent start. Just because someone gets a bad start or beats you with a donk doesn't mean they have a terrible deck or are just lucky.

Do you even care if your rating took a hit? To me it doesn't sound like you get many Worlds invites...

Who cares if you got donked? No one ever said you were bad if you got donked.. Well no one but you.

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Woah! I would have never expected this statement to come from you. Come on, now, every time a Dusknoir is KOed it takes three turns of energy to replace it, while it only takes one turn to replace a kingdra. Even late game, that factor is huge, and I would even go as far as saying Kingdra's damage output is definitely on par with Dusknoir's. I won't go as far as to say that Kingdra can win every match up without T1/T2 Kingdra, but for most of the competitive decks in the environment, Kingdra easily goes 50-50 against them, excluding Regigigas and Leafeon.

Sorry Austin, i thought the sarcasm was pretty clear :redface: Please take a look at the top of my post.

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There's a LOT of hating on donk decks in here.

What's wrong with mixing up the game? Most donk decks rely on a lot of luck, but that doesn't mean that the player isn't skilled. I run a Machamp deck that is quite solid because I don't have to pray for the cards I need. There's a difference between luck and speed. A good deck builder can put together a T1/T2 donk deck that's actually consistent with things like Pokedex, Unown R, Prof. Rowan, Luxury Ball (playing 4 if necessary...but DON'T), max BeBe's, Uxie, Azelf, and even 4 pokeball.

I run:
4-3-4 Machamp
2-2 Claydol
1 Azelf
1 Uxie

3 pokedex
4 Bebe's
1 Luxury Ball
4 Poke Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 PokeDrawer+
3 Roseanne's

etc.

Just because people like to outspeed/donk their opponent doesn't reflect them as having low self esteem either (saw that in an earlier post).

Edit: However, I also agree with the opposing argument as well. My other main deck is Dusknoir/Bronzong/Cresselia, which is a meticulous deck that requires quite a bit of skill and timing.

1 Uxie? :S

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