Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Blastoise/Keldeo is God Awful...

you need 5 energies under it to deal 150 turn 2, probably not going to happen often, it is going to be rare

darkrai sets up faster because of sableye also if that 1 keldeo with the energies under it gets KO'ed you are on your way to a loose. to KO a darkrai in 1 hit you need 7 energies under it, 8 if they have eviolite if they switch out or uses a max potion you lose 1 turn and they are in the lead with the dmg.

quaza sets up faster because of eels, maybe they give away a price or 2 in the start, but after that first KO they got 2 or 3 eels on the bench normally, which results in a KO every turn.

garbador/darkrai have been showing up lately, it made it to top 16 or top 8 in US regionals as far as i know.

with hydregion after the first KO on a darkrai they can send up shaymin to KO the keldeo with the energies, keldeo player now needs 3 new energies (4 if they have evilote) to coutner before they take another 2 prices

you wonna counter back on that? :)
 
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In my oppinion it is overrated I mean without blastoise the deck does not work and when the blastoise does not come down turn 2 it becomes alot weaker. If I am using Darkrai Hydriegon all I have to do is use maxpotions and then dragonblast the blastoises and if something does not respond to the hydreigon can just max potion and then blast again for ko. ( Going on the fact that if you are turn 2in 5+ energy I can get a catcher maxpotion and a darkpatch) and then once the blastoises are gone you are either going to be left with a Keldeo with alot of energy or a keldeo with not that much energy and if it has alot use mewtwo and if it doesnt just night spear around with darkrais to keep squirtles in check (by catchers)
 
It really, really depends on the list. Some lists are consistent enough to set up T2/T3, some aren't. Some lines autolose to some decks, some don't. A lot depends on what secondary attacker you run (or if you do at all). And a lot depends on the Trainer engine. My first time playtesting the deck, I got 5 energies on the Active T2. Now, I didn't pull that off again for 12 more games, but it's possible.

3 energy on a Keldeo is a 2hko on Darkrai, regardless of Eviolite. An Eviolited Keldeo can take 3 Night Spears if it doesn't have damage from the bench spread. Max Potions are capped at 4 unless Sableye recycles them, and Sableye's an easy prize.

I would disagree with Eels setting up faster. Many times facing a competitive Eels deck I saw only one Eel T2, maybe 2 by T3. If Blast/Kel gets a T2 Blastoise, they can overload the Eels early on. Paralysis stalling doesn't work when you've got Rush In. Eels are also easy OHKOs, and they are definitely Catcher bait. Nothing in a Keldeo deck is really Catcher bait unless you can oneshot Blastoise, which again takes 3 energy off Rayquaza.

I'll admit I haven't seen any Garbodor/Darkrai decks, so I don't know a lot about it. Based on how I imagine the deck is built, though, a lot would depend on whether Blastiose hit the field before Garbodor got a Tool, and whether or not the Blast/Kel could get Scrappers. You really only need one gap to use Blastoise fully, as opposed to Eel decks that are limited to 1 Dynamotor each before the Garbodor has the chance to attach another tool.

Darkrai/Hydreigon in my area hasn't been playing Shaymin, and I admit it might tip the balance. This would depend a lot on the secondary attacker of the deck. If it's a straight Keldeo/Blastoise, I can see it losing to a single Shaymin EX. However, if the secondary attacker was something like Kyurem, which probably wouldn't be OHKOed by Shaymin and threatens to OHKO back, Blast/Kel could bypass Shaymin.

TL;DR: Yes, Blastoise and Keldeo is a much-hyped combination. Yes, it might be overhyped. The framework of the deck is meant to do only one thing, making some matchups more difficult. BUT, the deck can work, and if you get your trainer engine right it can be fairly consistent. My ZPST deck wasn't as consistent as my Blastoise deck.
 
Also, again, if you'd like to discuss how bad our lists are, it'd be nice to see yours for reference. Nobody's enemies here.

I don't post lists because I know there are plenty of people coming to this thread and skipping through the real discussion just looking for lists. I'm not a fan of giving away things I've actually committed time to. However, I'll gladly talk about my list.

2 Mewtwo is a great fit for this deck. Why? Well, #1 he's got one of the best attacks in the game. #2 Eviolited Shaymin is a major problem for this deck and darkrai-hydregion is most likely running it. If you take 2 prizes, you risk an Eviolited Shaymin absolutely wrecking through your field. It's going to one shot your keldeo and if you can't return KO it, it's going to KO a blastoise or another keldeo the following turn. Look what 2 Mewtwo builds of Darkrai-Hydregion did, they dominated battle roads. Lastly, if you can't counter a big Mewtwo, you lose. Having Mewtwo in this deck prevents your opponent from running wild on you for big damage. Kyurem NVI is clunky and committing 3 energy to it in hopes that you can get off 2 glaciates is too risky and in my testing it just came off as more wishful thinking rather than a legitimate strategy.

12-13 energy is enough for this deck, including at least 2 DCE. DCE allows you to attack for 70 on T2 with Keldeo with or without Blastoise. This is enough to KO a tynamo, sableye, deino or hit an EX. Assuming you can get your Blastoise online by T3, you should be able to follow up the 70 with a 110 ko the next turn on any non-eviolited EX. Even if you aren't able to get the 110 T3, 70 T2 will put early pressure on your opponent and force them to rethink their next two turns to avoid falling behind.

10 draw supporters, 2 Skyla, 1 Cilan. This is your supporter line. Should be plenty to keep you going. Your deck is fast, it's not meant to play a long drawn out game, therefore as long as you play conservatively and don't Juniper away too many Skyla/Cheren/Bianca you shouldn't draw dead.

4 Scoop ups, 3 energy retrievals. 4 scoop ups @ 50% each means you're likely to hit 2 a game on average, usually wiping 2 of your opponents attacks off the board. This should be just enough to give you an edge in your tougher matchups. Combine with proper N use and a little luck, this pushes your toughest matchups a little closer to your side. 3 energy retrievals work well to ensure you never have trouble grabbing energy either from your deck or discard in the middle and end of games.

4 ultra, 2 level is the play. 1 super rod. No scrappers.
 
I don't post lists because I know there are plenty of people coming to this thread and skipping through the real discussion just looking for lists. I'm not a fan of giving away things I've actually committed time to. However, I'll gladly talk about my list.

I'm just going to say that those people gain nothing by taking your list and not reading discussion (unless the deck is as autopilot as I honestly believe it is.) I have never understood this mentality. It's one thing to try to hide your entire strategy (I don't want to share the deck I am thinking I will play for Cities, that's for sure...) but another to hide your decklist of an established archetype, unless you're doing something REALLY bizarre with it, which it doesn't sound like you are. If you're going to help people by contributing, why hold back the most helpful information?

I'll try to approach the rest of your thoughts with a relatively open mind but your somewhat aggressive language is certainly very off-putting.

2 Mewtwo is a great fit for this deck. Why? Well, #1 he's got one of the best attacks in the game. #2 Eviolited Shaymin is a major problem for this deck and darkrai-hydregion is most likely running it. If you take 2 prizes, you risk an Eviolited Shaymin absolutely wrecking through your field. It's going to one shot your keldeo and if you can't return KO it, it's going to KO a blastoise or another keldeo the following turn. Look what 2 Mewtwo builds of Darkrai-Hydregion did, they dominated battle roads. Lastly, if you can't counter a big Mewtwo, you lose. Having Mewtwo in this deck prevents your opponent from running wild on you for big damage. Kyurem NVI is clunky and committing 3 energy to it in hopes that you can get off 2 glaciates is too risky and in my testing it just came off as more wishful thinking rather than a legitimate strategy.

Keldeo's attack is also one of the best. Just saying that Mewtwo is "one of the best attackers" isn't enough to me. As an attacker, it's redundant and takes up space in a deck that is greedy for every spot it can get.

Eviolited Shaymin is a problem for many decks. The thing is, Keldeo can drop 4 energy on another Keldeo to OHKO Shaymin (through Eviolite). Mewtwo would need a fifth energy to do the same thing. Mewtwo does not actually help you answer Shaymin.

Comparing Darkrai/Hydreigon with Mewtwo to Keldeo/Blastoise with Mewtwo ignores some very important differences between the decks. Hydreigon/Darkrai can minimalize investment in a Mewtwo by removing energy from it once a KO is completed. It can reasonably use Psydrive to make a return KO marginally harder. Mewtwo is a "big attacker" that doesn't discard - something the deck badly needs in some metagames. Keldeo/Blastoise, however, already has an insane attacker (Keldeo). Mewtwo doesn't add anything the deck doesn't already have except some additional type coverage.

The only valid reason, to me, to run Mewtwo is to counter other Mewtwos. I can only say I don't think that's a good idea in theory. I can't tell you anything about my testing experience there.

12-13 energy is enough for this deck, including at least 2 DCE. DCE allows you to attack for 70 on T2 with Keldeo with or without Blastoise. This is enough to KO a tynamo, sableye, deino or hit an EX. Assuming you can get your Blastoise online by T3, you should be able to follow up the 70 with a 110 ko the next turn on any non-eviolited EX. Even if you aren't able to get the 110 T3, 70 T2 will put early pressure on your opponent and force them to rethink their next two turns to avoid falling behind.

Think about this deck with 11 water energy. Assuming you only put two Water on your first Keldeo, your next two Keldeo have 9 energy to work with. This might sound like a lot, granting you 4-5 energy per your other Keldeos, but this is assuming that you draw your ENTIRE DECK and none of your energy are prized or wasted on things like retreating a Keldeo for Mewtwo (which isn't a problem when you don't run Mewtwo), or powering up a Mewtwo for that matter. If you only draw 75-80% of your deck, discounting how many of those cards will be Trainers, Supporters, and Pokemon rather than Energy, you're only going to hit 75-80% of your energy at best (less than that most of the time), meaning you get on average about 7, maybe 8 Water energy in a game. This is to say nothing of the timing of those energy, which could be all at once, or could be one per 6-7 cards of your deck you draw or search. You aren't giving yourself enough energy to draw into it reliably, and are requiring yourself to draw into things like Energy Retrieval and Cilan to keep yourself going.

10 draw supporters, 2 Skyla, 1 Cilan. This is your supporter line. Should be plenty to keep you going. Your deck is fast, it's not meant to play a long drawn out game, therefore as long as you play conservatively and don't Juniper away too many Skyla/Cheren/Bianca you shouldn't draw dead.

I'd really like to liken this deck to an Eels build. Eels requires a couple of Stage 1 evolutions and a bunch of discarded energy - Keldeo requires a stage 2, and a bunch of energy in hand. Eels has the benefit of being able to discard energy as it goes, thus thinning its deck and utilizing draw cards like Bianca or Juniper more effectively. Keldeo has to make sure it gets Blastoise into play before being able to attach its energy, but after doing so it too could theoretically abuse Bianca and Juniper.

Other than the clunkiness of requiring energy in-hand (which is a very serious difference mind you) and the much more daunting task of setting up a stage 2 over a stage 1 (though granted Squirtle is ridiculously good as an evolving Basic), these two decks ought to be pretty similar in terms of consistency and speed. So what's the point I'm trying to make?

Last format at least (and, I'm seeing it continued in this format), Eels was one of the slowest, clunkiest decks there were. You didn't run Eels for early game power, and you still don't today. You run Darkrai or Tornadus if you want a fast early game. You run Eels because you want powerful attacking options lategame.

Keldeo acts in much the same way in terms of setup and card requirements, and you're trying to play it as a Darkrai-speed deck. You aren't going to get it there. A deck with early pressure is going to maul Keldeo [I actually have been building a Virizion prototype that really impressed me].

4 Scoop ups, 3 energy retrievals. 4 scoop ups @ 50% each means you're likely to hit 2 a game on average, usually wiping 2 of your opponents attacks off the board.

I'm going to stop you here and remind you that those SSUs are not simply guaranteed. You draw 75-80% of your deck most games (perhaps down to 90??) so you're actually going to average less than 4 SSU per game, not including prizes, and you're going to therefore hit less than 2 SSU flips per game. I have been in a bit of a hissy fit over SSU recently so I acknowledge that I might not be giving the card enough credit in general, but I think your logic here is a tad flawed, and I'm just highlighting why I say so.

3 energy retrievals work well to ensure you never have trouble grabbing energy either from your deck or discard in the middle and end of games.

4 ultra, 2 level is the play. 1 super rod. No scrappers.

I don't mind the idea of swapping one of my Super Rods for a Retrieval. That is a change I would probably like once I made it.

If I were to try to construct your list in my mind, I'm seeing 3 Keldeo 2 Mewtwo 3-1-3 Blastoise which gives a total of 12 Pokemon; 10 draw supporters with 2 Skyla and 1 Cilan for 13 supporters (25 so far); 4 SSU, 3 Retrivals, 4 Ultra 2 Level, 1 Super Rod is 14 more cards (39 now), and 13 energy (so 52). That's 8 spaces for what I'm sure must be 3 Rare Candy, 1 Computer Search, and 4 Catcher. So in essence your list is mine with an extra attacker over a Squirtle, two less draw supporters, and SSU and Cilan in place of Energy.

My list only really sets up 60% of the time. I am willing to acknowledge that a high energy count is part of what makes my list inconsistent, but a -2 in energy without adding any additional consistency cards in its place doesn't seem like it would make a great deal of difference. So I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing on the face of it that your list is more consistent than mine.

I will try some of the architectual changes I'm seeing here though, I can definitely see that taking out some energy and adding another Retrieval would change the dynamic of the deck quite a bit.
 
how many energies do you play? you can't have like 15 energies and still be able to setup fast everygame, with this amount of energies you take alot of speed out of the deck, but a high amount of energies is still needed to get this deck going. if you don't you have to place all your energies under 1 keldeo to OHKO a darkrai, which could 2 HKO you scrappers, if you had eviolite. Lets say you have 15 energies in the deck, you still need over the half of them to OHKO a darkrai, which is very unlikely to happen everytime you face the deck, but if you don't, they will most likely end up winning.
and it really doesn't matter if you have eviolite or not, they can still 2 HKO with 1 night spear and then a dragon blast from hydregion. leaving your next attacker not able to KO the hydregion without 5 new energies right away, and even if you have them you still only take 1 price. and then they hit first with darkrai making it a 2 hit vs a 2 hit, normally, the first to attacker here wins, which in this case would be darkrai.

the fact that eels are catcher bait is true, but so are your squirtles, they only need to discard 1 energy to get that price, and they in theory only need 2 eels, aslong as they can keep energies in hand.

garbador stops you since they mostly likely get it turn 2, way more often then you get your blastoise, this ensures that you can first them from turn 3 as the earliest!
 
Keldeo's attack is also one of the best. Just saying that Mewtwo is "one of the best attackers" isn't enough to me. As an attacker, it's redundant and takes up space in a deck that is greedy for every spot it can get.

I must disagree about Keldeo EX being "one of the best attackers". Obviously this disagreement is born of having a narrower definition to this phrase than yours. Mewtwo EX can be run adequately in almost all decks and run well in most competitive decks... without being optimized just for it. Keldeo EX is a great card, but it needs more support than Mewtwo EX does. It does have a useful Ability as well, but it isn't Darkrai EX level.

I suspect disengager's usage reflects mine more than yours, though if we needed to be more precise we might say Mewtwo EX is one of the best of the best but... that tends to get silly rather quickly.

Eviolited Shaymin is a problem for many decks. The thing is, Keldeo can drop 4 energy on another Keldeo to OHKO Shaymin (through Eviolite). Mewtwo would need a fifth energy to do the same thing. Mewtwo does not actually help you answer Shaymin.

Again I believe you two are discussing similar but non-identical situations, despite using the same limited description. Shaymin EX is a threat to many decks... when the player opposite it has taken at least four Prizes (preferably five) and Revenge Blast is hitting for 150 or 180 points of damage. Eviolite gives it just enough of a chance to hold on to attack twice with Revenge Blast, which can easily win a game.

That isn't why Shaymin EX is such a big threat to Blastoise and Keldeo EX; thanks to both those Pokémon being Grass Weak, Revenge Blast moves into OHKO range after the Blastoise/Keldeo EX player takes just two Prizes! If the game is moving at an even pace, this means Revenge Blast can take two Prizes against a Keldeo EX with the first use, and win the game if there is a second one to also OHKO. If not, Blastoise are of course important and still good for a single Prize.

Loading up a Keldeo EX to OHKO Shaymin EX is usually unwise unless you are certain that said Shaymin EX was the last major form of offense your opponent could muster. If your opponent has something else, especially that it can rapidly power-up, Keldeo EX is still in sorry shape. Anyway, as Mewtwo EX is not Grass Weak, an early Shaymin EX isn't a significant threat to it; sure said Shaymin EX can still 2HKO Mewtwo EX, but for a minimal investment you can 2HKO the Shaymin EX back or optionally push for a OHKO.

Comparing Darkrai/Hydreigon with Mewtwo to Keldeo/Blastoise with Mewtwo ignores some very important differences between the decks. Hydreigon/Darkrai can minimalize investment in a Mewtwo by removing energy from it once a KO is completed. It can reasonably use Psydrive to make a return KO marginally harder. Mewtwo is a "big attacker" that doesn't discard - something the deck badly needs in some metagames. Keldeo/Blastoise, however, already has an insane attacker (Keldeo). Mewtwo doesn't add anything the deck doesn't already have except some additional type coverage.

That Type coverage is actually quite, quite important.

The only valid reason, to me, to run Mewtwo is to counter other Mewtwos. I can only say I don't think that's a good idea in theory. I can't tell you anything about my testing experience there.

It is an important counter to opposing Mewtwo EX, which shouldn't be understated; Keldeo EX is more Energy efficient, but it still doesn't like being hit with X-Ball. I believe I already explained its usefulness against a relatively early Shaymin EX as well. There are other options that might even be better in both scenario... but Mewtwo EX is also just a great all around attacker; the alternatives often aren't.
 
Isn't this REALLY just a current Feraligatr Prime discussion?

Stage 2 that raindances on whatever and it SOUNDS good but is like ... meh?

Emboar BW is still out there, but there's not much discussion about it either. The hand-fill and "rain down" mechanic is tough to pull off regardless of Pokes.
 
Isn't this REALLY just a current Feraligatr Prime discussion?

Stage 2 that raindances on whatever and it SOUNDS good but is like ... meh?

Emboar BW is still out there, but there's not much discussion about it either. The hand-fill and "rain down" mechanic is tough to pull off regardless of Pokes.

No, for many reasons

1) Blastoise's weakness is Good.
-Gatr was released alongside Jumpluff in a format with a playable Scizor, Shaymin and Sunflora.

2) Squirtle is insane
-No one remembers what Totodile was considered "good" i think it did 10 for W, 20 for W/C.

3) Blastoise cannot be catcher stalled
-This format is defined by Catcher and Blastoise forces your opponent to deal 140 or not catcher it thanks to Keldeo.

4) Keldeo is the best partner
-What did Gatr have? Nothing that great

5) Gatr only could attach to Water Pokemon
- Blastoise can attach to anything.
 
The brevity (and possible lack of clarity) of my responses is caused by distraction; I'm playtesting at the moment so my attention is divided.

I must disagree about Keldeo EX being "one of the best attackers". Obviously this disagreement is born of having a narrower definition to this phrase than yours. Mewtwo EX can be run adequately in almost all decks and run well in most competitive decks... without being optimized just for it. Keldeo EX is a great card, but it needs more support than Mewtwo EX does. It does have a useful Ability as well, but it isn't Darkrai EX level.

Let's take a definition that is functional for this discussion.

Keldeo is the best attacker in a Blastoise deck. I think that is a pretty easy thing to agree on without getting too deep into semantics that aren't necessarily relevant right now.

Mewtwo being the best overall attacker I disagree with, but it's got a case for sure. I just don't see it as being the best attacker in Keldeo. Keldeo does everything Mewtwo does better, except KOing other Mewtwos.

That isn't why Shaymin EX is such a big threat to Blastoise and Keldeo EX; thanks to both those Pokémon being Grass Weak, Revenge Blast moves into OHKO range after the Blastoise/Keldeo EX player takes just two Prizes! [...] Loading up a Keldeo EX to OHKO Shaymin EX is usually unwise unless you are certain that said Shaymin EX was the last major form of offense your opponent could muster. If your opponent has something else, especially that it can rapidly power-up, Keldeo EX is still in sorry shape. Anyway, as Mewtwo EX is not Grass Weak, an early Shaymin EX isn't a significant threat to it; sure said Shaymin EX can still 2HKO Mewtwo EX, but for a minimal investment you can 2HKO the Shaymin EX back or optionally push for a OHKO.

Mewtwo does not help the fact that, after losing a Keldeo, you are in sorry shape.

Shaymin itself (with only two prizes taken) is not necessarily a threat to Mewtwo. Darkrai/Hydreigon is a threat to Mewtwo. If you swing into D/H with a 4 energy Keldeo, their primary answer to your new attacker is gone. Not that Keldeo is too difficult for a D/H to answer anyway.

If you swing with a 5 energy Mewtwo they can respond with a Mewtwo and immediately KO you. If you swing with a fewer-than-5 energy Mewtwo they can STILL swing with Mewtwo - and also still have Shaymin, probably max potioned, to troll you with. This does not account for the increased difficulty in charging a Mewtwo over charging a Keldeo - that one energy is pretty significant, especially when it's 4 vs 5 (rather than 3 vs 4).

I maintain that Mewtwo does not make for a better Shaymin answer than Keldeo already is.



That Type coverage is actually quite, quite important.

How? There are two relevant psychic-weak Pokemon in the format. Mewtwo and Mew. Mew doesn't see much play (and is easily mauled by Keldeo anyway, needing only 4 energy). Mewtwo is the only reason to run Mewtwo.

Your last point is a restatement of things I have either already agreed with, or already disagreed with.
 
...did some threads get merged or did I miss a lot of people's posts? @_@

Oh and since Kayle posted right before I did, I'll answer by saying: okay.

I haven't had enough time to play test this and merely wished to postulate a little. If the hard evidence is against what I say, I am almost certainly wrong. Of course we have two players testing the deck disagreeing, so I will wait until more evidence is presented.
 
...did some threads get merged or did I miss a lot of people's posts? @_@

Oh and since Kayle posted right before I did, I'll answer by saying: okay.

I haven't had enough time to play test this and merely wished to postulate a little. If the hard evidence is against what I say, I am almost certainly wrong. Of course we have two players testing the deck disagreeing, so I will wait until more evidence is presented.

two threads got merged
 
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