Canadian Nationals 2010

[TimeZero]

As far as I would like to have it in Montreal, I don't think the numbers game is in our favor. My guess would be in Toronto again this year. If I remember right, we were 122 Masters and over 200 players total. This is the biggest attendance for a Pokemon Tournament in Canada's history if i'm not mistaken.

I'm pretty sure the attendance would be less if the National is in the West, but we never know for sure. If it's in the West, Montreal's crew will try to go, but i can't guarantee it. :thumb:

 

[GrandmaJoner]

Gordon come on man don't analyze and pick apart a friendly obviously not very thoughtful or experienced comment made by a Pokemom, u know better than that.

And lets be clear I don't think anyone here is calling for a central location -____- where there is no Pokemon base that doesnt make any sense. And yea sure Edmonton would be fair that's west as far as I'm concerned, its not that I juts wanna have it in my own backyard they actually probably deserve it the most.

And Smacktack how the hell does that even makes sense lol that order you put out is so ridiculous

The issue here is whether the slight (at least I think slight) increase in numbers is justified to put it out East year after year, repeatedly making us Westerners fly all the time. And I honestly believe that it is simply because we are accustomed to having to fly that we do it more often than the Easterners. Is this really fair? I don't think so at all, in fact I think it's pretty poor and I think this is being used by the people who want nationals out east. Put nationals out here 2 years in a row and the east will be outraged. And are we really that much less deserving that them? Our numbers are not THAT worse and our players have done consistently better (I think that legitimately should factor into the decision, and by no way is that unfair). Put nationals out here 3 or 4 years in a row and you bet you will see more Easterners coming out year after year. Doesnt mean its right :/

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

Gordon come on man don't analyze and pick apart a friendly obviously not very thoughtful or experienced comment made by a Pokemom, u know better than that.

And lets be clear I don't think anyone here is calling for a central location -____- where there is no Pokemon base that doesnt make any sense. And yea sure Edmonton would be fair that's west as far as I'm concerned, its not that I juts wanna have it in my own backyard they actually probably deserve it the most.

And Smacktack how the hell does that even makes sense lol that order you put out is so ridiculous

The issue here is whether the slight (at least I think slight) increase in numbers is justified to put it out East year after year, repeatedly making us Westerners fly all the time. And I honestly believe that it is simply because we are accustomed to having to fly that we do it more often than the Easterners. Is this really fair? I don't think so at all, in fact I think it's pretty poor and I think this is being used by the people who want nationals out east. Put nationals out here 2 years in a row and the east will be outraged. And are we really that much less deserving that them? Our numbers are not THAT worse and our players have done consistently better (I think that legitimately should factor into the decision, and by no way is that unfair). Put nationals out here 3 or 4 years in a row and you bet you will see more Easterners coming out year after year. Doesnt mean its right :/

I agree with all of these and I also think that if West were to have Nationals like this the game would signifcantly grow here evening out the numbers anyways. However the West has never had the opportunity of Nationals multiple years like the East.



Also Lucariolvlx all you did by posting that was make yourself look silly.....

 

[Mystery Thing]

As a 5-year veteran here in Ontario, I can assure you that far fewer people are going to travel from East to West than from West to East. Money and time are both factors.

So are you implying that everybody in the west is ridiculously wealthy and can fly wherever we want year after year after year, or that your time is more important than ours? Because neither of those are remotely good reasons for it being out east again. It's actually pretty insulting. :nonono:

 

[NoPoke]

Hypothesis in three parts.

• The masters group is not significantly disenfranchised by the repeating Eastern location.
• The Western masters are shouldering most of the travel burden.
• Western Seniors and Juniors are excluded by the Eastern location.

So what happens if Nationals alternates?
Does the overall situation improve for the whole playerbase?

------------

A contentious statement:
Most countries have an annual Nationals tournament. By alternating Canadian Nationals, Juniors and Seniors are effectively offered nationals every other year!

Here is the key challenge: Is there any way of structuring Nationals so that all groups benefit rather than just spreading the pain out?

I know it is possible to pick holes in this post, that is partly why I posted it. That contentious statement needs to be false for the solution of alternating location to be a significant improvement. If the contentious statement is true (because of Canada's vastness) then whilst an alternating nationals looks better it is not a particularly good solution and that something more radical is required.

 

[yudha]

here's what i realized, Eastern players think:

A: it is totally fair that Eastern players don't ever have to travel at all, but Western players must pay ever year if they want to play at national in east side.

B: it is totally un-fair if Eastern players has to pay and travel every 2nd year to play national in the west side.

is this really what you guys think ? it seems like it from all the posts i read

 

[NoPoke]

I doubt that is true, I expect such beliefs are unhelpfull.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

[Oderus Urungus]

here's what i realized, Eastern players think:

A: it is totally fair that Eastern players don't ever have to travel at all, but Western players must pay ever year if they want to play at national in east side.

B: it is totally un-fair if Eastern players has to pay and travel every 2nd year to play national in the west side.

is this really what you guys think ? it seems like it from all the posts i read

This is exactly what it is.

Like I don't see what the huge problem is with just switching back and forth every year. People from Van and everywhere close have to come over there for everything big, so you can come over here every other year.

Easy Mode.

 

[smacktack15]

Gordon come on man don't analyze and pick apart a friendly obviously not very thoughtful or experienced comment made by a Pokemom,

As I gather, you are talking about LucarioLv.X? If so he is a Poke-Dad. Just sayin.

~Zach

 

[MamaLugia]

My son and I had flights and hotel paid for by Pokemon and we still did not go to Nationals in Vancouver in 2008. As a 5-year veteran here in Ontario, I can assure you that far fewer people are going to travel from East to West than from West to East. Money and time are both factors. A third is that most of the Ontario players focus on the fun aspect of playing the game (hanging with friends, deck building) and winning and prizes are a bonus, not the primary motivation. The attendance is always going to be higher in Toronto, so if that is the deciding factor, c'est la vie.

See, I get what you are saying about the money and time issue since the West has always (except once in Vancouver) had to deal with it. It IS a hardship for most families. But, we have had no choice in the matter so, we just find a way to cope with it if we really want to attend. We are not all super competitive players here either. We have a good number of casual players who just play for fun, hang out and build decks, There are loads of kids who have not yet reached a level where they could top cut but they have dreams of playing NATs or Worlds too. They too could increase the numbers in Vancouver if given the opportunity (as do those who play for fun increase the Toronto numbers).

However, fun aside, the Nationals has the alternate purpose of trying to find our best Canadian players, no matter where they come from and with no prejudice East or West, to represent us at Worlds. I am rooting loudly for any Canadian at Worlds - I don't care what Province they come from.

From what I see, a large percentage of our national best are either students or persons with very limited resources. Therefore, IMO, forcing one group to ALWAYS pay is harsh. As it was mentioned before the groups hardest hit are the Seniors and Juniors who generally have to rely on their parents for funding. Their costs escalate dramatically when they have to have guardians to travel away from home. That huge cost for a weekend is cumbersome for just about any family I can think of, West or East... But perhaps another issue to discuss besides money is whether they are excluded by holding the event permanently in one location they can't get to. That appears to prejudice the results somewhat.

If a solution of "sharing the pain" is not acceptable, what is the solution besides do nothing, leave it alone?

Even though we don't get a vote, if I had one, I would vote to support our Canadian players everywhere, not just in one Province, being as fair as possible and above everything promote the Spirit of the Game. I sure have no solution everyone would be happy with. I just think that leaving things the way they are forever is not terribly fair to some highly dedicated players. So far, alternating locations seems to be the only thing closest to "fair" on the horizon.



(West Edmonton Mall would be an BLAST by the way. And generally by the end of June, we have put the parkas away for a while -
IF someone actually wanted to venture outside away from all that fun..)

:smile:

 

[sdrawkcab]

My final conclusion for this thread is the same as it was for the North American Raiting thread I started near the end of last season.

POP / PUI wants Edmonton to have a player base as populous as Toronto or Vancouver in order to host the National Championships. Although we have been working on getting a player base it's been increasingly difficult to earn loyal (competitive) players when all the competitive events are leaving the area. We had Regionals, now we have to share them with a region that ALSO gets Nationals. From a local players perspective we feel as though we have been ignored / shuned from competitive comunnity.

As I said before, if players in the area knew as fact (as opposed to speculation) that we'd have the oppertunity the host events such Nationals, they'd most defenatly be motivated to spread the game in the community and grow.

We just need a light at the end of the tunnel.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

As far as invites go, I think Canada needs to split the invites between Regionals and Nationals. Giving those with less oppurtunity to travle the chance to earn one...it would at least give us less debate about the location of nationals

 

[ugly psyducky]

Yeah, I agree that a central location would turn out very badly. Personally, I would be most in favor of having Nationals alternate between East and West each year, although I understand if POP was just to pick the area that will draw the biggest crowd and stick with that. It does make a lot of sense from certain perspectives at least. Mainly I'm just not thrilled with a lot of Eastern players attitudes of "Who cares if it's fair, I'm getting what I want".

Best post in the thread so far (I'll call into question your contention of a lot of Eastern Players who feel this way -- but for the most part the Eastern content of the thread is anything but supportive of what is a real issue for an entire region of the country). Fair to say that there are a few Eastern posters who seem to be taking the position -- it's likely in Toronto AGAIN, yeah for me -- oh let me rub a little salt in the wound while I at it. Not necessarily the most mature stance.

So would it be more fair if Nationals were in the West this year -- Unquestionably it would be. I really can't see how this statement can be argued about.

It doesn't matter where the better players live, it doesn't matter where the larger concentration of player's live (as a matter of fact this is of course a misleading stat, the population of the GTA at 8.1 million is more than the combined population of B.C. and Alberta. -- so we simply will always have numbers on our side even if our player base per capita is smaller).

I'll bear some comment on the idiocy of putting it somewhere that punishes every player (but perhaps advances some other agenda), because that's somehow fair. This is the worst kind of unfairness, because it favours those with money. On top of that -- you need a Judge / Organizer base familiar with the setting to ensure that the tournament is not a complete disaster. We have two proven sites / organizing capabilities -- I was in Vancouver and it was every bit as well organized and run tournament as Toronto last year.

But, does fairness play a role in selection of a Nationals site. If we look south of the Border the answer to that question would seem like a no. For numerous years Nationals was in Columbus Ohio, with a switch to St. Louis last year. Which really didn't do anything for players from the large US player base in Oregon, California, Texas and the Eastern Seaboard. At the end of the day location of Nationals is chosen by POP, in a manner that they believe is best for the game as a whole.

 

[P_A]

As I gather, you are talking about LucarioLv.X? If so he is a Poke-Dad. Just sayin.

~Zach

Ummm, and that pokedad was last year's head judge at Nat's. (Since I can't pm you Paul, I thought it would be best to post that .... Hopefully now you see that even an innocent sounding post to a person can cause someone else pain. I'm sorry if you were upset by one of my earlier posts - which at that time seemed perfectly reasonable. I'm no better or worse than you.)

Oh and don't worry guys. Even though I offered to hold it in Manitoba doesn't mean I would be able to accomplish it. Sure, it was an impractical idiotic suggestion. It was an offhand comment to show people that options can and should be considered. Fairness should be the key here, and the ultimate goal should be to grow the game regardless of the geographical shortfalls here. Just because some from the east are reveling in the fact that it's held primarily in the east doesn't mean that we all feel it's fair that it remains that way. If you look at the threads about American Nat's and location of World's threads, you'll find the same sort of "me first" attitudes that get absolutely no where. I'm sure POP will do what they think is best for pokemon here in Canada. Whether or not our individual opinions matter to POP is not mine to say, though I'm sure they at least listen to them.

One thing that might help would be some cross country fundraising like we had last year for the Adopt-a-Champ program .... except this year and succeeding years we should concentrate on helping the players get to our own Nats. If we can't even get our best players to Nat's to battle, how can we expect to get our country's best to World's?

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

Ummm, and that pokedad was last year's head judge at Nat's.

LOL....


If the population of GTA is 8.1million larger then BC and Alberta combined wouldnèt that mean that Pokemon is bigger and more popular in BC and Alberta? Because if you look at individual regionals the numbers were not that different. With 8.1 million more people the numbers should of been signifcantly larger. I would think anyways.

Also

But, does fairness play a role in selection of a Nationals site. If we look south of the Border the answer to that question would seem like a no. For numerous years Nationals was in Columbus Ohio, with a switch to St. Louis last year. Which really didn't do anything for players from the large US player base in Oregon, California, Texas and the Eastern Seaboard. At the end of the day location of Nationals is chosen by POP, in a manner that they believe is best for the game as a whole.

Hmmm well that made me think of an interesting point. Why is Canada a numbers game where as in the USA it is just where ever?

 

[P_A]

The US Nats WAS held in a more centralized location where there was a large player base. To think that would be possible here in Canada would be wrong. We have our own set of challenges, that POP has historically done the best they can to solve. No one solution will suit everyone.

 

[MamaLugia]

At the end of the day location of Nationals is chosen by POP, in a manner that they believe is best for the game as a whole.

Agreed. And in support, it is a nasty task they face trying to make that decision. But really, do we know why that decision was made or just speculating? In any case, the US NATS attendance was amazing so maybe it was numbers for the US and to a lesser extent, Canada. (Lesser because Toronto's numbers were up a bit but not amazingly out of reach for Vancouver to catch up).

There is some attempt to rotate Worlds locations. I am guessing it would be very unfair to just keep it one spot given that the World has to travel from every direction. If we can have a decision based on an attempt to equalize travel in that situation, it really isn't that much of a stretch to extend the logic to Canada or any other Country spread out all over the place?

 

[Jane]

I would just like to say that we in Alberta should bring this up in our provincial government, because this could be the deciding factor that will sway the politicians into separating us from the rest of Canada, effectively bringing our own Pokemon Nationals to either Edmonton or Calgary EVERY year! (unfortunately I would assume it would usually end up in Edmonton)



In all honesty, I think it should alternate between places, because the western competitiveness on the world/national scale is higher than the east, but the eastern numbers is higher than the west. And like someone said before me, if the west had the chance to hold Nationals more often the game may indeed grow here.

 

[P_A]

Yay, sure, bring politics into this! LOL. I'm sure that will end well! Ha ha. Great post.

 

[sdrawkcab]

Ugg I hate not having my post referenced too...

I would just like to say that we in Alberta should bring this up in our provincial government, because this could be the deciding factor that will sway the politicians into separating us from the rest of Canada, effectively bringing our own Pokemon Nationals to either Edmonton or Calgary EVERY year! (unfortunately I would assume it would usually end up in Edmonton)



In all honesty, I think it should alternate between places, because the western competitiveness on the world/national scale is higher than the east, but the eastern numbers is higher than the west. And like someone said before me, if the west had the chance to hold Nationals more often the game may indeed grow here.

I might as well run for the alliance party now?

 

[P_A]

I'd reference your post but it's backwards ..... sorry, couldn't resist the extremely small joke there.

In reference to the change up of the invites to Regionals and Nats here in Canada, I would honestly resist that idea. The PTOs (before my time) have worked hard to make sure that Canada has been awarded what they currently have at Nats to go to World's. Any change in that would be a step backward in my opinion.

Since we have had unparalleled growth here in Canada over the years (the US would have had to have substantially more than their 1000 player Nats to rival our growth), we need to harness the power of the sales, AND the players. Until that happens, we can use some bandaid solutions - like adopt-a-champ or something similar to help.