Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Carnevine = The end of Vileplume?

JandPDS

JandPDS

New Member
Carnivine – Grass – HP90
Basic Pokemon

[G] Poison Lure: Choose 1 of your opponent’s Benched Pokemon and switch it with his or her Active Pokemon. After that, the new Active Pokemon is now Poisoned.
[G][G][C] Spit Blow: Return the opponent’s Active Pokemon and all cards attached to it to your opponent’s hand.

Weakness: Fire (x2)
Resistance: Water (-20)
Retreat: 2

Lure Vilplume up one turn then make it go away the next.. is Vilepulme's time over?
 
This still good usage in CMT since it takes grass energies
Posted with Mobile style...
 
Raikou is the end of Vileplume friend.

Snipe for 100 twice? Dead Vileplume.

Not to mention Vileplume is basically dead now anyway. All Stage 2s are.
 
Raen said:
Not to mention Vileplume is basically dead now anyway. All Stage 2s are.
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A deck with Vileplume T4ed New York States. Vileplume is played much less nowadays, but with the right player and the right deck, it can still be a good card.

I agree, however, that the release of Raikou EX would much Vileplume much less playable.
 
psychup2034 said:
A deck with Vileplume T4ed New York States. Vileplume is played much less nowadays, but with the right player and the right deck, it can still be a good card.

I agree, however, that the release of Raikou EX would much Vileplume much less playable.
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I took the liberty to check the What Won States? thread.

There were a total of 4 decks out of 233 decks that Top 4d that had Vileplume in it.

Sounds dead to me.
 
Magnezone is sort of dead too, the only Stage 2 that's seeing any play at all right now is Typhlosion in TyRam and that deck has gone down from being Tier 1 to Tier 2.5 or Tier 3. It's all because of how fast the format has gotten lately, CMT is dominating and so is Terrakion and ZekEels but I think ZekEels while it's still a Tier 1 deck is suffering a bit due to how Donphan has made a comeback as well as Terrakion giving it problems.
 
Raen said:
I took the liberty to check the What Won States? thread.

There were a total of 4 decks out of 233 decks that Top 4d that had Vileplume in it.

Sounds dead to me.
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That's not an accurate representation of how "played" Vileplume is. Many Vileplumes may have been played but did not place. Dead =/= played. I do believe Vileplume's match-ups aren't half bad (it wrecks Durant, Terrakion, and most playerss aren't prepared for trainer lock), but it's just so difficult to set up under the pressure of T1 80 from a Tornadus ;/

But on topic yeah I think Raikou is the real threat to Vileplume. I mean really whatever Carnavine provides is pretty much already out... you can Bellsprout one turn and OHKO Vileplume the next. Either way I don't think Vileplume will see enough play to warrant using Carnavine.
 
Shen said:
That's not an accurate representation of how "played" Vileplume is. Many Vileplumes may have been played but did not place. Dead =/= played. I do believe Vileplume's match-ups aren't half bad (it wrecks Durant, Terrakion, and most playerss aren't prepared for trainer lock), but it's just so difficult to set up under the pressure of T1 80 from a Tornadus ;/

But on topic yeah I think Raikou is the real threat to Vileplume. I mean really whatever Carnavine provides is pretty much already out... you can Bellsprout one turn and OHKO Vileplume the next. Either way I don't think Vileplume will see enough play to warrant using Carnavine.
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When I say "dead", I mean it isn't competitive anymore. I'm pretty sure that is what EVERYONE means when they say dead.

Even the worst cards gets played. Doesn't mean they're good.
 
Raen said:
When I say "dead", I mean it isn't competitive anymore. I'm pretty sure that is what EVERYONE means when they say dead.
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I think you're underestimating Vileplume, they are ways still ways it can be made playable. If there is one card thats shown resillance over an ever changing format its Vileplume. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one deck can win an nationals with it.
 
At least 60 % of the Vileplume decks have either Dodrio or DCE.
In addition, there has been a Carnivine that does the same for [C] long before.
 
This one is a little dif though, it poisons the Pokemon
Which might seem like eh, but it is a huge diff
Posted with Mobile style...
 
Electric Spider said:
Speed (Mewtwo) and Spread (Kyurem) already killed Vileplume. Though tons of people teched in Bellsprout when trainer-lock was big.
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I teched in Bellsprout in ZekEels at a cities. This was before ZekEels became mainstream btw. Didn't get to use it once. Faced zero trainer lock decks. Just a bunch of Thunderdome and Lanturn everywhere.

Also teched in Eelektross thinking it would help me somehow. What the hell was I thinking back then.
 
ShadowGuard said:
In addition, there has been a Carnivine that does the same for [C] long before.
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I believe the threat of this Carnavine is that, if you can't retreat Vileplume right away, then your opponent can return it to your hand with Carnavine's second attack.

---------- Post added 03/29/2012 at 03:41 PM ----------
Raen said:
When I say "dead", I mean it isn't competitive anymore. I'm pretty sure that is what EVERYONE means when they say dead.

Even the worst cards gets played. Doesn't mean they're good.
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Yeah but you still see Vileplume at tournaments...

If personal experience counts for anything, I played Reuniclus/Vilpeplume and went 6-2 at FL States missing cut ;/ Freaking T16 for 195 masters lol. I believe it has solid match-ups against everything but it has trouble getting past CMT's early pressure game (though if you get past that I've found it to be about even). ANY Vileplume variant is a great choice in a heavy Durant meta. They also have good match-ups with Terrakion and some variants keep up with Zeels.
 
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Raen said:
When I say "dead", I mean it isn't competitive anymore. I'm pretty sure that is what EVERYONE means when they say dead.

Even the worst cards gets played. Doesn't mean they're good.
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By this logic, I shouldn't have made the top cuts I did with my non-Eel, non-Celebi deck. Also means my teammates playing Typhlosion and Truth wouldn't have made top cuts.

Just because it's widely played doesn't mean it's good.
 
PhadedPhione said:
By this logic, I shouldn't have made the top cuts I did with my non-Eel, non-Celebi deck. Also means my teammates playing Typhlosion and Truth wouldn't have made top cuts.

Just because it's widely played doesn't mean it's good.
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To a certain degree, you have a point.

But the simple truth is the most played decks are the most played decks because they give you the best chance of winning. Let's look at the numbers, here are the first place finishes in Masters from States:

Zekrom/Eelektrik x24
Celebi/Mewtwo/Tornadus x18
Durant x4
Landorus/Terrakion x3
Donphan/Mewtwo x2
Straight Celebi/Mewtwo x2
Reshiphlosion x2

x1 Victories:
Straight Terrakion
Magnezone/Eelektrik
Terrakion/Tornadus
Magneboar

To a certain degree, you can chalk up Zekrom and Celebi having the most wins to being the most played. But even is you cut their win in half, they both have more wins individually than any other deck. Even if you chop them down to 1/4 of the wins they actually have, they STILL have more wins than every other deck. That's just too many wins to claim that they only win the most because they are the most played.

Now look at Top 8s:

Zekrom/Eelektrik x114
Celebi Mewtwo Tornadus x79
Durant x30
Landorus/Terrakion x13
Reshiram/Typhlosion x9
Terrakion x6
Donphan/Mewtwo x6
Meesie Mew x6
Terrakion/Tornadus/Mewtwo x6
Celebi/Tornadus x4
Magnezone/Eelektrik x3
Zekrom/Pachirisu/Tornadus/Shaymin/Mewtwo
Mangeboar x2
Truth x2
Six Corners x2
Mew/Unfezant/Vanniluxe x2
Electrode/Terrakion/Mewtwo/Reshiram x1Typhlosion/Magnezone x1
Terrakion/Tornadus x1
CMT/Vileplume x1
Chandy/Dodrio x1
Thundurus/Terrakion/Eelektrik x1
Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode x1
Chandeulre (Fire) x1
Straight Donphan x1
Leavanny/Vileplume x1
Donphan and Dragons x1
Hippowdon/Landorus/Terrakion/Mewtwo x1
Yanmega/Terrakion x1
Reshiboar x1
Chandelure/Dodrio/Mewtwo x1


There is a LOT more variety here, but notice something? That variety disappears the deeper you get into the cut. Again, this is too obvious a pattern to chalk up ONLY to the sheer numbers of players playing the top 2 decks. There is a reason that Celebi and Zekrom win the most; they are the best. There is also a reason that Six Corners, Typhlosion, The Truth, and anything else with Vileplume DON'T win; they can't keep up with the top decks.
 
Raen said:
To a certain degree, you have a point.

But the simple truth is the most played decks are the most played decks because they give you the best chance of winning.

There is a LOT more variety here, but notice something? That variety disappears the deeper you get into the cut. Again, this is too obvious a pattern to chalk up ONLY to the sheer numbers of players playing the top 2 decks. There is a reason that Celebi and Zekrom win the most; they are the best. There is also a reason that Six Corners, Typhlosion, The Truth, and anything else with Vileplume DON'T win; they can't keep up with the top decks.
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Induction would tell you Eel is the best deck. Stats would tell you that 114 Eel decks won out of how many hundreds played? 400 or 500, maybe more? I wouldn't be surprised if Eel has an abysmal win percentage, but still steam rolls it way into top cuts and wins because of sheer numbers. If I was playing an inferior deck, than my stats wouldn't be as good as they are, and I wouldn't make top cuts anywhere.

I do think the rate of metagame saturation has hit critical mass and deck diversity has suffered greatly with more and more people turning to Eel or Celebi to try and generate wins/top cuts/CP. More Eel/Celebi players means more Eel/Celebi wins.

I'd like to see a percentage table though, as time consuming as it would be, to show how awful Eel's win percentage/percentage of Eel decks played is.

Ninja edit: On the topic of Carnivine, the last time I used one was during Cities as a tech in Typhlosion vs. Vileplume. Carnivine did nothing against Chandelure and was marginal.
 
PhadedPhione said:
Induction would tell you Eel is the best deck. Stats would tell you that 114 Eel decks won out of how many hundreds played? 400 or 500, maybe more? I wouldn't be surprised if Eel has an abysmal win percentage, but still steam rolls it way into top cuts and wins because of sheer numbers. If I was playing an inferior deck, than my stats wouldn't be as good as they are, and I wouldn't make top cuts anywhere.

I do think the rate of metagame saturation has hit critical mass and deck diversity has suffered greatly with more and more people turning to Eel or Celebi to try and generate wins/top cuts/CP. More Eel/Celebi players means more Eel/Celebi wins.

I'd like to see a percentage table though, as time consuming as it would be, to show how awful Eel's win percentage/percentage of Eel decks played is.

Ninja edit: On the topic of Carnivine, the last time I used one was during Cities as a tech in Typhlosion vs. Vileplume. Carnivine did nothing against Chandelure and was marginal.
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You ignore one other important point. You, a good player, played Six Corners at Utah states. I, a good player, played Eels. No one else played Six Corners. But dozens and dozens of other players play Eels. Of those players, very few were very good players.

While the numbers of Eel players matter, the calibur of player playing any given deck is important too. I don't feel like any statistic that doesn't take into account player skill would be very informative in figureing out the best deck.
 
With all the data, it would take a few hours of agony to make a cool flow chart for deck percentages. Win-loss records, percentage of metagame was a certain deck.

Pie charts, bar graphs and line graphs - oh, my.

Carnivine hasn't been useful in months. I use mine as a Tyrouge proxy in our Eel test deck.
 
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