Clinic 8: Dendro's Fix: Latiken

[Dendrobatida]

This time I've chosen a sample Blaziken variant from the forum, mostly because there have been a number of blaze decks posted of late and I wanted to see what we could do with one of them. Perhaps our work here will help those others who also have a hankerin' to do something with Blaziken. Plus, it's always nice to help out a father-son tandem.

Here is Edmundo's initial post of his deck, Latiken:

Hello all, i new here, and new in pokemon TGC, i build this deck, i dunno if this deck have a name, so i put one.

This deck is built to my son (junior division) go to nationals, so coment and help to make more consistent.

Tks to all.

Pokemons = 21

3 Latias Ex DF <====main attacker
1 Latios Ex DF <===== second attacker/free retreat to main/ice barrier against Ex
1 Latios (dual aura) HP <====== Latiolock
1 Latias star DX <======= Big Ex killer

3 Torchic PK
2 Combusken EM
3 Blaziken PK <===== Energy acelleration

2 Skitty CG
2 Delcatty PK <======Draw acelleration

1 Holon Catsform
2 Holon Electrode

Trainers = 25

4 Transceivers
3 Mentors
2 Adventurers
1 Scientist
1 Farmer
3 Celios Network
3 Rare Candy
4 Windstorm
1 Switch
1 Warp point
1 Str Charm
1 Crystal Shard

Energys = 14

12 fire
2 Delta Rainbow

Strategy= Build a beched line of 2 blaziken/1 delcatty/1 latias ex/1 Latios Ex, and the main is other latias ex. Latios dual aura and latias star is a teck. Start = So versatily, if you start with latias Ex and 2 energys, use her power to t2 = 90, and continous setup your bench. If you start with o poor hand, begin with castform/mentor and delta draw. Badly Starter = skitty and latias star. Not even tested against the combos decks, but you can see some things - 1)Deck eats energys in start rush, 2) Psiq weakness to main/second attacker, in some matchups is terrible.

The Strategy is a build like metanite, but with a lot of speed in begin game (because latias Ex is not a big killer like metagrox but is more faster then metagrox, so you can do t2=90), take advantage of free retreat and energy acceleration for Latias Ex power. In middle game when you setup your bench, is easy to give 90 dmg in all turns, but problaly your oponent have a big pokes in game, so Latias Star begins to appers.

I just thinked to put 1 more latios Ex (if prized), 1 lass and 1 more catsform for 1 electrode, and something like holon legacy (after the begin - in middle game, you may dont use more the power of Latias Ex), but i dunnno what to change, some help of you guys will be apreciate. Tks to all.

 

[Dendrobatida]

The combo here, Blaziken and Latias EX d, is a solid one, particularly with its free retreat and ability to hit early. I would have liked to have picked a deck that needed more work than this one for our fix, but we've had a string of solid decks posted in the forum of late, so I guess we all have to settle for a deck that has potential, rather than one that needs a great deal of help.

The two major areas of concern I'd like to address are 1) the lack of a consistent starter pokemon and 2) the serious psychic weakness. With this deck, I can see it playing out pretty easily as follows: Latiken player burns first turn powering up Latias for a big shot. Opponent leaves out starter pokemon, calls for family or delta draws, knowing that they're going to get KO'ed next turn. Latiken player takes first prize, opponent gets free turn after that as Latiken player powers up again. By that time, t4 or so, opponent will be ready to KO the Latias, and that will leave Latiken player in a bind, since the repetition engine (blaziken, delcatty, Latios EX d, etc.) requires a bit of time to set up, and longer still due to the lack of a starter. Worse, if you suddenly find yourself facing a metagross swarm or Flygon EX d, I don't see the Lati* getting powered up quickly enough to counter the threat. In other words, any player with a mind to sac his or her first pokemon is likely to outspeed and overpower this deck. Raieggs, for example, will love it when you blow away their holon castform, so that they can bring up raichu, drop the scramble, drop the cursed stone, and go ahead on prizes just like that, and be ready to zzzzap all your other benched latis into OHKO range the turn after while you struggle to recover. We won't even mention Mew EX copying your own Latios EX d....

While we won't necessarily be able to address these issues completely satisfactorily as long as your main hitter is a psychic-weak Ex, we can try to compensate for them a bit. See how this list grabs you:

Pokemon:
2 Latias EX d
2 Latios EX d
1 Latias *
3 Eevee (CFF)
2 Umbreon EX
1 Vaporeon EX
2 Skitty
2 Delcatty pk
3 Torchic
2 Combusken
3 Blaziken
1 Tauros
1 Holon's voltorb
1 Holon's castform
1 Holon's Electrode
Total: 27

Trainers:
4 Transceivers
3 Mentors
2 Adventurers
1 Scientist
1 Farmer
2 Copycat
3 PETM
2 Rare Candy
4 Windstorm
Total: 22

Energy:
11 Fire
Total: 11
TOTAL: 60

I realize that the eeveelutions are popular these days, and perhaps overplayed. However, they are extremely versatile, and thus warrant the amount of play they receive. Umbreon, for instance, gives you a way to get around the obnoxious sacrificed castform, allowing you to pick off the vibrava on the bench early game. It also resists psychic, giving you a viable defense against Banette, Mew EX, Flygon, metagross, etc. Further, it enables you to get around safeguarders in the active position, whether an opponent's Latios EX, banette CG, or what have you. The vaporeon gives you access to an attack that gets through safeguard as well, and allows you to manipulate your opponent's hand. The eevee possess call for family, which gives you a viable starter.

I dropped the latilock option because Umbreon gives you a way around the safeguard, and the only other body you really need to be concerned about, dugtrio or cloyster, doesn't really affect this deck anyway. I also dropped the 4 techs in lieu of more draw (copycat) and another latios EX d - establishing the free retreat is more important than having a switch and warp point.

A holon's voltorb or magnemite is always an essential play in any deck that runs mentor.

The tauros is an extra counterstadium and a decent starter. I had to drop a rare candy for it, but with only a 3-2-3 blaze line, the candy seemed like the thing to sacrifice. I could see dropping the farmer, though.

Normally I'd love to see a purer version of this run, because there is a distinct and effective combo here. However, its weaknesses - folding to psychic and having so many gyms that hurt it (frontier, stone, legacy...) require a more tech'ed out version. Ain't that the format these days?

-Jake/Dendro

 

[Pooka]

I think you can fix some of the problems you mentioned, Jake. Here's what I came up with.

// Pokemon
3 Jirachi DX
3 Holon's Castform
1 Holon's Voltorb
3 Blaziken PK
2 Combusken PK
3 Torchic PK
2 Delcatty PK
2 Skitty PK
3 Latias ex d
2 Latios ex d
1 Lugia ex
1 Mew d
1 Latias*

// Trainers
4 Holon Transceiver
3 Celio's Network
3 Holon Mentor
3 Windstorm
2 Giant Stump
2 Rare Candy
1 Steven's Advice
1 Warp Point
1 Holon Farmer
1 Holon Scientist
1 Holon Adventurer

// Energy
11 Fire Energy

Jirachi is still a solid starter in this format. In addition, Holon's Castform isn't half bad if you can manage to get Latias ex, Latios ex, or Mew d on the bench. Both of them should aid in setting up quickly. With the combination of those six, Mew d (which can be a Delta Drawer pending on your opponent's starter), and Latias ex/Latios ex (which can have free retreat due to Latios ex), you have a total of twelve solid starters. That's not bad!

I don't think the Psychic Weakness on Latias ex is as big of a deal as you think. Yes, Flygon ex d is a major problem for it, but you just have to be careful when you're running up against that. Don't foolishly run into battle and walk right into a KO. Make sure you're setup before you make a move. Have a Latias* or Lugia ex ready as a response, and I don't think there will be as many problems. Sure, Metagross is popular, but it's actually not a worry. When Latias ex KOs something, it discards two Energy, so Metagross can only do 80. Also, usually people have to charge up Metagross with Super Connectivity, leaving them with 90 HP on the Metagross... which is convenient for Latias ex! The other popular Psychic Pokemon, Banette ex, happens to have 90 HP, too. This means that Latias ex and Banette can trade KOs at some point, but you can respond with non-ex attackers like Latias* and Mew d later in the game.

I think you have to abuse Latios ex's free retreat Poke-Body as much as you can, because it's too good to let go to waste. Therefore, I've added some key cards that should help abuse it. One is Warp Point. It provides several options that can help win games (getting out of status, making your opponent switch, etc.). But the biggest addition has to be Giant Stump. I think this can help your Delta problem a little bit, and it's extremely disruptive. Thanks to the free retreat due to Latios ex, you can plop another Latias ex on the bench, charge it up, retreat the active one, and Stump it away when it gets hurt. I think this is a necessary addition to the deck.

Overall, this seems like a really fun deck to play, and it can be competitive at the same time. Thanks to the Holon's Pokemon, there's numerous options you can throw into the deck to alter certain matchups.

 

[Dendrobatida]

The jirachi is a fine addition, but I didn't want to include it in my fix since I had already mentioned it to him in his initial thread

 

[ryanvergel]

Okay, these are taken off Team R's website.

Here's the version without Delcatty:
Pokemon: 19
3 Blaziken
1 Combusken
3 Torchic
4 Latias ex
2 Latios ex
1 Latias HP
2 Castform
1 Holon’s Voltorb
1 Holon's Electrode
1 Lugia ex/Kyogre ex

Trainers: 29
4 Trans
4 Mentor
1 Adventurer
1 Farmer
1 Scientist
3 Power Tree/BF
3 Windstorm
3 Celio's Network
3 Rare Candy
3 Stevens
3 Warp Point

Energy:12
12 Fire


And the version with:
Pokemon: 24
3 Blaziken
1 Combusken
3 Torchic
3 Latias ex d
1 Latios ex d
3 Castform
1 Holon’s Voltorb
1 Latias *
1 Lugia ex/Kyogre ex
3 Skitty
3 Delcatty (1/2)


Trainers: 25
3 Holons Legacy
2 Windstorm
3 Celio's Network
3 Rare Candy
4 Trans
1 Adventurer
1 Farmer
1 Lass
1 Scientist
4 Mentor
2 Warp Point(kyogre)/Switch(lugia)

Energy:12
12 Fire


Here is Agustin's thoughts:

// Pokes: 18
3 Torchic (sleeps)
1 Combusken (fighting one in CG)
3 Blaziken RSH
4 Latias ex d
2 Latios ex d
1 Latios d (80 for 3 energies if your opp has any stage2)
1 Latias d (80 for 3 energies if your opp has any EX)
1 Latias d HPH (stops bodys)
1 Lugia ex
1 Latias*

// Energies: 17
13 Fire Energy
1 Holon's Magnemite
3 Holon's Castform

// trainers: 25
4 Holon Transceiver
3 Holon Mentor
2 Holon Adventurer
1 Holon Scientist
3 Celio's Network
3 Rare Candy
3 Power Tree
2 Windstorm
4 Pokémon Reversal


---

I was the unfortunate tester with Alex. I didn't really like the deck much, just because I feel it's a risky burnout deck.

The thing I like about Alex's version is that if you can get Blaziken up t1 or t2 you can use 2 heavy shots by t3.

T1- drop a fire and use lati's power. 2 energy
T2- use a holon supporter and use blaze's power to drop an energy to a benched lati. Attach manually to active. do 90.
t3- Firestart and attach to benched lati. Retreat for free. Hit for 90.

I like the idea of having a strong mentor out. If you get a castyform start, you can mentor for 3 latis and DD. If you get any lati start you can proceed as normal. if you get a kyogre start, proceed as normal. That makes only voltorb and torchic bad starters. That's why there are 3 warp point. Another good card is power tree. I feel it reallllly helped Alex a lot in testing. With so few fire energy he would be itching to attach from the hand but unable to since they'd all be in the discard or still decked. With power tree you can often use blaze and still attach via the hand.

I honestly don't like the idea of this deck being a setup deck. Latias ex is not a good mid or late game hitter. Doing 90 mid-game when someone can KO it with flygon ex, latias*, metagross, banette, etc. isn't good. I think almost every archetype has an easy response to latias ex midgame. Having to rely on setting up a delcatty and a blaziken just to get going isn't going to cut it. You might take a prize or two early game, but after that, when the opponent simply sacrifices a castform or something to setup you're in a rut. The deck needs to be able to do 90 every turn, and very fast. It should not get into the late game. You cannot wait until t4 to attack. You must hit them t2 and kill their start.

Also, in testing, it was almost always the case that castforms were CRUCIAL in attacking. Alex began with 1, and eventually slowly added them up to 3. Mentoring for your attackers and your energy is just too good. Kyogre, lati-anything, even a possible groudon... it's the way to go.


What are your thoughts? I think the best way to go for this deck is try to get a super aggro going early. I don't like the idea of taking a few turns to setup. This deck WILL lose in a prize swap if you let the opponent setup. Even after Alex was able to do 90 t2 and t3 it was sometimes possible to setup. I can't even imagine if he only did 90 t2 and let me get my extra turn before being attacked.

Sorry about the ugliness of this post, I have to leave for work very soon and I've had one day off in the past 8 work days. It's so stressful!

 

[Dendrobatida]

RE: The release of D/P and its effects on this deck:

I think the new first turn rules favor Latias EX's power; the inability of the opponent to candy t1 makes the potential for a t2 90 that much more dangerous; Infernape is really the only other pokemon that can pull that off reasonably, and Latias EX requires fewer cards to pull it off (and, with Latios, has the whole free retreat thing going for it just like Infernape). I think the two would even pair well together, if anything does. The issue of having a psychic-weak power-wielding basic EX, though, is still a problem. Ray EX d outspeeds it, and that'll still be a problem. The cards I see being the most beneficial to the deck from D/P are:

-Infernape lvl X (comboability)
-Pluspower (100 damage plateau)
-Energy Restore (restock from discard, though there are myriad better ways to do this, including the already-included blaziken)

And that's about it.

 

[ryanvergel]

Here we are ladies and gentlemen, fix 8. Fix 9 is in the works and hopefully this helps out all you rogue lati@s-ex players out there!

 

[pichu bros. rox]

I know I would put in a few PlusPower/ Strength Charm to 1HKO Infernape.

 

[Rambo1000]

ryan you shoulda posted my list.

 

[mewlover777]

i would swicth the latais EX's with lugia EX's.run 4 swicth cards and 3 warp points.add 4 hlon's magneton and 3 holon's electrode.kep swithing and killing everything with lugia doing 200 almost every turn. i use deck at my first regional camionship and got 12th.i just started playing pokemon last year and i am 2nd in my state.

 

[flameing_lasagna]

How do you think this deck would do at the US Nationals - 11-14?
Is it solid enough to make it through?

 

[~Blazi-King~]

How do you think this deck would do at the US Nationals - 11-14?
Is it solid enough to make it through?

Well what you need to win any major event is: Speed AND Consistancy.

Speed you have, so if you can get the Consistency down...Your good to go!

 

[BigChuck01]

Interesting deak idea. I love decks that revolve around basics as your primary attacker. Leaves room for a lot of slots.

I think your Pokemon are right on the money, except I'd run all Castform instead of Cast and Electrode. They're much easier to get due to Mentor, and they're not even horrible openers, since you run a lot of Delta Pokemon.

Pokemons = 21

3 Latias Ex DF <====main attacker
1 Latios Ex DF <===== second attacker/free retreat to main/ice barrier against Ex
1 Latios (dual aura) HP <====== Latiolock
1 Latias star DX <======= Big Ex killer

3 Torchic PK
2 Combusken EM
3 Blaziken PK <===== Energy acelleration

2 Skitty CG
2 Delcatty PK <======Draw acelleration

3 Holon Catsform


I like a little less energy when you have Castform and a means of getting energy back, so lets cut it to 13.

Energy: 13

13 Fire (Delta Rainbow shouldnt be needed with Casty

That leaves room for 26 trainers, a solid amount

Trainers: 26

4 Trans
4 Mentor
2 Adventurer
1 Scientist
3 Rare Candy
4 Windstorm
4 Celio
2 Castaway
2 Strength Charm

I'd run 4 Trans and Mentor in every deck. You need to be able to Mentor early, so just give yourself the highest odds of doing it. I added Castaway and Strength Charm to allow you to OHKO Infernape, the new most popular deck in the format.

Hope this helps!

 

[Ardoptres]

Pokemons = 21

3 Latias Ex DF <====main attacker
1 Latios Ex DF <===== second attacker/free retreat to main/ice barrier against Ex
1 Latios (dual aura) HP <====== Latiolock
1 Latias star DX <======= Big Ex killer

You can attatch energies to whatever pokemon you want, so why not play some more techs?
I'd say:
- Lati*
+ Mew*
OHKO'ing Infernape and RK9 ex + almost everything with Fire-weakness in not bad!
- Latias ex
+ Mew ex
It's just so versatile!

3 Torchic PK
2 Combusken EM
3 Blaziken PK <===== Energy acelleration

IDK, maybe drop a Combusken for a 4th RC? It could give the deck some speed?
- 1 Combusken
+ 1 Rare Candy

2 Skitty CG
2 Delcatty PK <======Draw acelleration

I'd drop this. That leaves room for 4 more things:
+ 1 LatiAs ex here
This is the main attcker. Having 1 priced, leaving you with 1 to play, is just not enough.
+ 1 Castform
4 Casties is a must when playing the new techs. You play alot of Delta pokes, so starting with is not even bad!
+ 2 Swith/Warp Point
I guess you could take this out, but it would work good if you just attacked with Lugia ex, and wanted to do it again. Swith to LatiOs ex, then 2x Firstarter, attach casty, reatreat Latios ex to Lugia ex, and BOOOM!

3 Holon Catsform

Look ^^^^

Energy: 13

13 Fire

I drop one, so i can get the deck down to 60... IDK if 12 NRGs are enough though.

Trainers: 26

4 Trans
4 Mentor
2 Adventurer
1 Scientist
3 Rare Candy
4 Windstorm
4 Celio
2 Castaway
2 Strength Charm

Why not drop a Windstorm for a Holon Ruins? It'd help you if you just castaway'd, and wanted that Fire NRG in the Discard Pile.
- 1 Windstorm
+ 1 Holon Ruins
..and then drop a Mentor for another 'Ruin:
- 1 Mentor
+ 1 'Ruin
Even decks that relys on delta draw'ing, can 'survive' with 3, so i guess this can too, when you don't even raly on DD'ing.
Also, i feel that a Farmer would do a VERY good job in here. Maybe drop a Adventurer?
- Adventurer
+ Farmer
It gives you back the techs you have which WILL win you some games. LatiOs ex is also important in here, and you only play 1! ;/
A scott would also work greatly in this, if you decide to play 'Ruins, but IDK what to take out..

So the final list would be:


Pokemon: 19

3 Latias Ex DF
1 Latios Ex DF
1 Latios (dual aura) HP
1 Mew* d' DF
1 Mew ex LM
1 Lugia ex UF

3 Torchic PK
1 Combusken EM
3 Blaziken PK

4 Holon's Castform

Energy: 12

12 Fire

Trainers: 29

4 Trans
3 Mentor
1 Adventurer
1 Scientist
1 Farmer
4 Rare Candy
3 Windstorm
2 Holon Ruins
4 Celio
2 Castaway
2 Strength Charm
2 Switch/Warp Point

Total: 60

Hope it helps!

 

[clement30]

I saw a different version of this deck, and it seemed to work pretty well

POKEMON
4x Latias ex d
2x Latios ex d ( in case one is knocked)
1x Latias* (your idea, i like it)
3x Torchic PK
2x Combusken PK(I like the body)
3x Blaziken PK
2 or 3x Mewtwo d (one with power, energy movement)
2x Holon Evolutions ( keep energy in hand if needed,and Latias* can attack)
19 or 20 Pokemon

TRAINERS
4x Holon Trans.
3x Mentor
2x Adventurer
1x Scientist
1x Holon Lass
1x Mr. Briney
3x Windstorm
2x Giant Stump
2xTV reporter
3x Celios Network
1x Holon Researcher
3x Rare Candy
1x Holon Farmer
27 Trainers

ENERGY
11x Fire energy
3 or 2x Delta Rainbow
14 energy

Again, this is what I pretty much saw, and it did well. The reasons why Delcatty is out are: 1) Its another line, and will be pretty tough to get out consistantly.2) With the Holon setup, you should be discarding Fire energy on a consistent basis, and 3) I think the Mewtwo d is needed more, so you can move those energies.

 

[Ardoptres]

I tested my list today, and i worked like a dream. <3 Good seup every time, and when I got 2 blazes up, I won the game.. hah..
I just used Mew ex to discard though, that could easely be dropped for something els.