Competing - Your Feelings About It?

[ShiningLion]

I have not yet competed in any organized Pokemon events (other than pre-release), but I want to do it, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'd like to hear yours as well. Here are some of my thoughts about it:

I want to have a chance at winning.

I am very competitive when it comes to strategic games, and even though there are a lot of limitations to strategy in this game, due to format restrictions and the nature of the game having elements of luck involved, I feel the Pokemon TCG is mostly a strategy game. Deck building is the first important strategy, while playing your deck properly is just as important.

All that said, I am also not rich, and when cards become popular or do well competitively, they sort of skyrocket in price. I sometimes feel that in order to have a fighting chance at winning a tournament (even a city one) I would need to jump on the bandwagon of a popular deck and shell out 140 bucks for a set of Yanmega Primes (just an example), which I simply cannot do.

Some of the competitive decks you can make are less expensive, like ReshiPlosion, but expensive nonetheless. Pokemon can be expensive, and even trainer/supporter cards can be really hard to get without spending a ton of money!

Anyway, I'm left with a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth sometimes, feeling that in order to compete you have to shell out money to play a popular deck with a good track record. Sort of makes me feel like a zombie drone to the system more than an individual player. However, Ross Cawthon proved at Worlds this year that occasionally you can come up with a rogue deck that can do very well. I'd be really proud to have done that and placed 2nd in worlds! Wow! Hearing about that gives me a little more hope that I can be original and still compete well, but I also feel like the combinations of decks you could create that are original and do well are very few and far between.

So here's a question for you all who compete. Is it really that gratifying to win a tournament with one of the Tier 1 decks that are so popular, knowing you didn't come up with the design other than fine tuning it to suit your own tastes? Do any of you use decks that you know aren't as effective, simply because you are proud of having designed it yourself?

Whenever I get an original deck idea, I start out really excited, spend a decent amount of money building it, then get to a point where I realize as great a deck as it is, it still isn't going to best the Tier 1 decks out there. It's sort of this slow realization that maybe I should have bought cards to make one of those decks instead.

I dunno. I'm on the fence about how to feel. The best part is competing is free, so I can't complain about that. I'd just really like to have a shot at winning a decent amount of rounds and placing well in a tournament, but I also feel like its hard to do without spending an arm and a leg, and it's hard to be original and creative and pull it off.

How do you all feel about competing in general? Are you in it to win it, or just along for the journey? Maybe I need to reset my expectations and just try to have fun. Hahaha.

 

[jigglejuice]

I used to feel the same way as you, but the community here helped me see a different point of view. Here is a quote from a thread of mine that really helped me understand

I disagree. I think there's actually a considerable amount of room for creativity at the top level of competition in this format. If you take a look at the list of the top 16 at Nationals and Worlds, you'll notice a couple patterns.

1. Certain Pokemon appear a lot because they're just that good. Yanmega, Magnezone, Reshiram, Kingdra, Zekrom, etc., just to name a few.

2. Within the same themed decks, no two lists are the same. That's where the creativity comes in. Should I play a Fisherman or Flower Shop Lady in my Reshiboar? Should I play a 4-4 or 4-3 Yanmega line? Should I play a rescue energy? Manaphy or Cleffa? Should I play 4 Sage's Training to maximize my chances for a T2 Vileplume, or can I not afford to discard those extra cards? Should I play a Reshiram tech in Donphan just to counter Kingdra? Should I play a Jirachi tech to improve my Stage 2 matchup?

This is where creativity comes in. Coming up with innovative ways to get better matchups and achieve higher consistency is where the actual skill in deckbuilding comes in. The same type of deck will share anywhere from 45-52 of the same cards. It's the remaining spaces in your deck that matters.

Some examples: A Reshiboar deck that T16ed at US Nationals played Cheerleader's Cheer for consistent draw (without having to shuffle cards back into the deck). A Stage 1 deck that top cut at Nationals played 3-4 Potions for the mirror match.

Think of it this way. When you build a car, you're going to need to have to include certain things, like a body, wheels, a frame, seats, a steering wheel, heating/cooling, rear view mirrors, etc. A car manufacturer would be stupid to say "I want to be creative, why won't I use cardboard instead of aluminum to build the car's body?!" Cardboard is just not the right material for a functioning car. Similarly, as much as you may like certain Pokemon, their cards are just not right for competitive play.

There are other materials that do work for a car body, such as fiberglass. A car manufacturer could experiment with different types of materials, but the different types of material have to work! You could experiment between Donphan, Yanmega, Magnezone, and Reshiram, but ultimately you're not going to get anywhere building a deck with a Pokemon that's just not strong enough.

That is not to say that there isn't any creativity outside what has already been established. Gyarados did extremely well at worlds two years ago despite being a deck that almost nobody had heard of before. The runner-up this year played a Vileplume/Reuniclus/Donphan/Zekrom/Blissey/Suicune-Entei Legend/Pichu deck. That's most certainly creative.

tl;dr
One of the best ways to learn the fundamentals of competitive play is to actually play with proven decks. Once you play with what works, you'll start to understand what makes those decks work. I hope I didn't discourage you from trying out your grass decks. I just hope you don't forgo playing with proven decks, because that's the best way to start playing competitively.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152924

---------- Post added 08/27/2011 at 02:49 PM ----------

Credit for that quote goes to psychup2034

 

[Absoltrainer]

Trade. I just came back into the game after taking a year off and I had pretty much no cards. I traded for over 39 cards at a Pre-release and easily got $100 in cards by trading.

Remember you can trade up.

Get commons and uncommons for a bunch of commons or uncommons.
Get rares for a bunch of uncommons
Get ultra rares for a bunch of rares.
Get lots of less valuble ultra rares for a few high value ultra rares and vice versa.

I always trade cards even if that person has nothing I need, because they might have something someone else needs. So as an example. I traded a bunch of my pre-release cards and got card like vileplume, Zekrom, and Reshiram. Having only one won't help me make a deck, but I can trade all 3 of those for a bunch of cards I do need for my deck.


Another thing, make friends. Lots of them.
Friends let you borrow cards for event.
I do this ALL the time and once had over 15 borrowed cards in a deck.

Finally, buying packs or boxes once in a while for trade bait is good, but in general keep to buying singles and trading.

Pokemon can be expensive, but it doesn't have to drain your money.

 

[King Piplup]

I'm going to start with some background to show my opinion on this-

Well, when I first started playing, I didn't play Archetypes. Partially because I didn't want to play with them, and Partially since my first tournament was an UD Prerelease. (And nobody wanted to trade for any of those cards)

I also had random cards from really random sets. Half of it was Pre-MD which, at that point was useless. HGSS tins were still in the stores, so I used them to get Typhlosion and Feraligatr prime. I ended up building an Ampharos/Typhlosion deck (Actually, that is the same deck I have on the TCGO right now...Scary!)
.
.
.
Long story short, it was....Horrible. I didn't know the meaning of Rare Candy, or Collector.

Soon, I was using a Blastgatr, which, was fun to play, and easy to use! And the cards weren't that hard to get. Unfortunately, at league, I got tired of getting beaten by Dialgachomp (Nobody in the state in Seniors played Luxchomp at the time. I'd soon change that), so I got myself a set of the SP Engine, and the necessary Pokemon. I played it at league and...It didn't go so well. I still lost in the mirror and was losing to everything between Gyarados and Kingdra. Nevertheless, I took it to my 1st BR. And did...Badly. 1-2 as far as I remember, and that was with a R1 bye. I made a couple changes, then went 1-2 at my next BR, (With a R2 Bye this time...)

Then, I gave up on the deck. I went back to using Blastgatr, which I'd practiced with since my start. I went 3-1 in Swiss, losing round 3, but making cut on resistance. I re-played my round 4 opponent who was running Ampharos...Yes, the Platinum one that locks Feraligatr's powr: and hits Blastoise for weakness. He was using something (Which escapes my memory) to spread damage to Gatr' so my power was dead. I lost Game one, in Game Two, I managed to get T2 both stages two and sniped everything. Game three, he made a crucial misplay, and I won.

After that, I switched decks constantly the first couple cities, while my mom (Who had taken the Dialgachomp, and gotten a Luxray) had played Lux/Dialgachomp all through Cities. She ended up dropping all of them up to the last two, due to not being able to come even close to cut. The last two, she made T8, in fairly large cities. I personally credit that to sticking with a deck, and learning it well.

After that my brother started playing Gyarados, my mom Luxchomp, and me between rogue and Luxchomp. I ended up playing Luxray at both states, going 5-5 due to my lack of experience in the mirror. And I faced 7 mirrors. My brother T4 Indiana, with Gyarados so I decided to try it. I tested my heart out, and knew the list inside and out. I ended up T8 regionals, because I stuck with my deck. I swore never to change my deck last minute, or play Luxchomp again.

Then came the rotation announcement....I honestly, wasn't to happy. I knew I'd miss the decks I knew inside and out. I started testing Magneboar but never really liked it. So, I was randomly flipping decks by the night and day. (Background: I really make most of the decks for me AND my brother, because one thing I'm able to do is formulate lists out of nothing) So, the day the potential rotation is announced, hes asking "What am I going to play, what am I going to play" so, honestly, without even reading anything, I picked two cards out of the binder and said. Your going to play this!!! I picked Donphan and Yanmega. (I laugh soooooooo hard at that today...) We didn't have enough to run two of those, or else I might've. Instead, I ended up building everything between Manoswine/Kingdra swarm, KGL/Manoswine, Weavile Sharpedo, Grass Toolbox, Raichu, Donphan+anything. Honestly, I had the most testing with Magneboar, and should've gone with it. Except for some 11:30 PM testing Wednesday with Donphan/KROOKODILE (I have no clue what I was thinking) shredding Magneboar to a crisp. So, me and my mom both played that, my brother played Donphan/Yanmega.


Long story shortened, she went 1-4 drop, I went 4-5, and my brother started 5-0 (And would've been in invite position if he had dropped!!) but ended 5-3.

/outrageously long background info to back up my opinion

I seriously, will never randomly switch decks again. I will admit, while having most success with Archetypes, it is way more fun to play something else.

tl;dr-Stick with what you've tested, and the [DEL]sky[/DEL] metagame is the limit. And, its way more fun to play non-archetypes.




Note: The poster realizes this was a ridiculously long background explanation with a really short actual reply to topic. Oh, all things are in my opinion

 

[untitled]

It is incredibly gratifying to win a tournament with an already popular deck. When I was 11 or 12 I won a Regional and at that point in my life that was probably one of the most exciting moments of my life. I mean when you start out with 80 players and then just you and 1 other person are left sitting in the room at 2 AM and there's 4 judges surrounding you and the whole area is blocked off and the room is dead quiet, there's just something really exciting and rewarding about it. Because even if you're playing with a popular deck, you know you've played your absolute best in order to make it there - all the hours of playtesting, perfecting your list, learning each and every matchup inside and out, playing with every other deck just to learn how to exploit that deck's weaknesses with your own deck, etc. And then it all pays off in the end. You've outlasted everybody else playing that deck.

As far as paying for cards? It's not that expensive if you do it right. I think probably half my deck going into the LCQ was borrowed. The cards I bought were singles. If you're planning to just play competitively, don't ever buy a pack or a box. You get the cards you need so much cheaper just buying the singles. Right now my card collection is probably only around 300 cards, 170 of which I won as prizes and the rest were singles.

Also it's not just about winning - if it's just a battle roads early in the season, go there to hang out with friends and have fun. Don't go there planning to win. Play a creative deck for smaller K-value tournaments if you don't want to go with the crowd. Heck I've had success with somewhat rogue decks at tournaments as large as Nationals/Worlds. I don't play random cards that are crap compared to the good ones, but I often play some interesting techs - I ran an Absol Prime starter in the LCQ this year, for example. There can still be some creativity written into the decklist, even if your deck isn't creative.

 

[ShiningLion]

I used to feel the same way as you, but the community here helped me see a different point of view. Here is a quote from a thread of mine that really helped me understand

That bit that you posted about not building a car out of bad materials, I think that's the part of this card game that really bugs me the most. In the pokemon video game you are urged to collect them all because really you can do potentially well with any pokemon so long as you teach it the right moves and level it properly!

In this game, it takes the fun out of getting to use your favorite pokemon, because you simply can't if you want to do well. You HAVE to build your deck using the right materials, as the source you cited put it, or it will fall apart. You pretty much have to use certain pokemon that are stronger than others to survive, hence certain ones get popular and everyone uses them (and in effect those cards are very sought after and hard to get because they cost 8 bajillion dollars).

I also don't find that the difference in trainer cards or amounts used in a pokemon line really give deck building a feeling of originality or creativity. You're still having to follow a general mold or combo that has been proven to be good.

I guess I just wish this game was more flexible. It would be if they would put more planning into the cards they make (not make broken cards, even the types out a little better) and not put such tight restrictions on which series are still in the modified format.

Anyway, I enjoy this game a lot, it just gets a little tough at times to get the most out of it when you're low on money. I don't know how I'd feel about borrowing cards from people. I could probably do it for the tournaments, but if i didn't borrow them weeks ahead of time to get used to the deck I would probably flop in the tournament. And for that matter, I don't know anyone who would let me borrow cards for weeks at a time.

Anyway, I'll just have to see how I feel when I compete I guess. I'll try to do something creative and as long as I don't flop on my first game I think I'll feel fine. Haha.

 

[Cyrus]

On the note of borrowing, show generosity: if you're willing to loan out cards, then those around you will be willing to loan back to you. That's why Texas is such a great place to play in: because most everybody's pretty civil to each other, and interested in sportsmanship before hordesmanship.

 

[untitled]

That bit that you posted about not building a car out of bad materials, I think that's the part of this card game that really bugs me the most. In the pokemon video game you are urged to collect them all because really you can do potentially well with any pokemon so long as you teach it the right moves and level it properly!

In this game, it takes the fun out of getting to use your favorite pokemon, because you simply can't if you want to do well. You HAVE to build your deck using the right materials, as the source you cited put it, or it will fall apart. You pretty much have to use certain pokemon that are stronger than others to survive, hence certain ones get popular and everyone uses them (and in effect those cards are very sought after and hard to get because they cost 8 bajillion dollars).

I also don't find that the difference in trainer cards or amounts used in a pokemon line really give deck building a feeling of originality or creativity. You're still having to follow a general mold or combo that has been proven to be good.

I guess I just wish this game was more flexible. It would be if they would put more planning into the cards they make (not make broken cards, even the types out a little better) and not put such tight restrictions on which series are still in the modified format.

Anyway, I enjoy this game a lot, it just gets a little tough at times to get the most out of it when you're low on money. I don't know how I'd feel about borrowing cards from people. I could probably do it for the tournaments, but if i didn't borrow them weeks ahead of time to get used to the deck I would probably flop in the tournament. And for that matter, I don't know anyone who would let me borrow cards for weeks at a time.

Anyway, I'll just have to see how I feel when I compete I guess. I'll try to do something creative and as long as I don't flop on my first game I think I'll feel fine. Haha.

You really can't be very competitive just playing favorites. You have to have a love for the game and the strategy more than the characters. That's why you don't see the top players parading around talking about how Jigglypuff is their favorite Pokemon ever and they fit it into their decks because of that. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the truth.

Also, you can only do well against in-game opponents in the video game with any Pokemon. Some have stats or movepools that are just flat out weaker than those of others. This creates a metagame for competitive battling, or a group of Pokemon used over all the rest.

The same is done in the TCG, and it's healthy for the game. The best players are the ones who put the most effort in to the game, learn all the small little tricks that win you a game every now an then, and test against the other metagame decks so that they know how to methodically run through them. If every card was equally good, there would be too many decks and nobody would buy single cards. Then no third party vendors would buy a billion booster boxes and all the players would hardly have to invest any money in the game to be competitive. Decks would be build only based on what players pulled in a few packs and there would be NO creativity at all. Creating every card equally good would ruin the profits and then the game would be cancelled because they wouldn't be making any money off of it.

It's the subtle differences in decks that are the best thing about this game. I'm always trying to decide on the last 5 or so cards to put in the list out of a pool of 15 or so cards. It can take weeks to decide, but choosing the best 5 will so often be the difference between a 3-2 player and a 4-1 player who makes the top cut.

This game is also a lot about playing skill, not just deckbuilding. For example, in the grinder a couple weeks ago, I played against a Typhlosion/Reshiram deck in the first round. He could have had the best list in the world, but he used Pokemon Collector first turn to get 2 Vulpix and a Cyndaquil. If he had gotten 2 Cyndaquil and a Vulpix he very well might have won the game. But that one mistake set the entire course for the game. He made a small little misplay and I took full advantage of it. I was eliminated in the same way - I played 1 card out of my hand I shouldn't have and my opponent took full advantage of it in every way he could.

Really this game is 1/4 deck choice, 1/4 deck list, 1/4 playing skill and 1/4 luck. You won't win if you're playing a bad deck, or if you have a bad list for a good deck. You also have to play very close to perfectly if you want to win major tournaments, and you of course have to be lucky. They designed this to be a strategic game, not a game where everybody buys packs to get their favorite cards then throw them into a deck and rely on luck to get to the top.

Players who create unique decks and place well with them do so by using cards that counter the popular cards. For example, Ross's deck used 3 attackers - Zekrom, SEL and Donphan. Now, how do you think he arrived at those 3 attackers? He looked at all of the metagame cards (Magnezone, Yanmega, Reshiram, Zoroark, Donphan basically) and saw they all have 3 weaknesses in common. Then he used cards that have those three types and are strong attackers in general. SEL only took up 2 spots in the deck and could OHKO Reshirams without being KO'd back. Zekrom could Outrage for a lot of damage and also KO Yanmegas without getting KO'd back. And Donphan could set up Zekrom to Outrage and tank damage while also hitting Magnezone and Zoroark for weakness. The deck has some underlying synergy sure, but if grass types were more popular he would have used Reshiram over Zekrom for example.