Creating a ban/restriction list for a more fun and strategic Pokemon TCG

[TheRolesWePlay]

The thing is not all decks have counters to these as space in most deck (especially stage 2 deck) to counter these card. My Zapdos deck has no problem with Yveltal because its weakness is built into the deck. Still getting a 4 energy attacker that just gets Evil balled back for a knockout is not a effective counter. Even Raichu gets gets OHKOed just with Yveltal based damage of 60 for a total of 100 with Raichu's DCE. With Dark Patch, Yveltal can attack but more than likely it will be Darkrai EX getting the knockout. Yveltal has no effective counters that is just does not knockout in return.

If you're really having that much trouble with a deck you can always change your decklist or outright change to a new deck.

And yes Dark does have an effective counters. Fairy for instance has resistance and ways to OHKO Yveltal, and Raichu OHKOs Yveltal at the smaller cost of a single prize. Genesect can G Booster it burning the energies that could work against it. Yveltal is far from broken.

 

[vaporeon]

There is no need for side decks in pokemon. Whats the point of garbador if you can just side in tool scrappers? Literally blastoise can run wild. Have fun dealing with giant keldeos with no mewtwo and yveltal to balance it out. Blastoise would literally break the format. Pokemon has its system of checks and balances. Which 60 cards you choose to run are up to you. Pokemon rarely prints a card that cant be countered in some way. Side boards would completely defeat the purpose of things like metagaming and teching for certain bad matchups.

Its up to you as the garbodor player to compensate with it. If your opponent wants to remove cards to side in tool scrappers then let them. You also have the chance to side against them as well. The thing is not everyone plays a deck with 10 basic, 50 trainers and 10 energy. Darkrai can afford any tech it wants, while other decks dont have that chance. The side deck allows those decks the chance to be competitive. The ban list keeps Darkrai and Blastoise in check, like they do in other game.

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You didn't say that before. Based on the content of your post and your previous threads here on the gym, it looks like you are calling for change in official play.

I was calling for change for the core game in those thread but someone posted it would be better as a unofficial format next to standard. Its to my understanding that PTO are allowed 1 unofficial tournament a format. I dont really know the details of that but I would like to see something more competitive than current Standard.

 

[LOLZ]

Its to my understanding that PTO are allowed 1 unofficial tournament a format. I dont really know the details of that but I would like to see something more competitive than current Standard.

What is this now... this makes no sense.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Its up to you as the garbodor player to compensate with it. If your opponent wants to remove cards to side in tool scrappers then let them. You also have the chance to side against them as well. The thing is not everyone plays a deck with 10 basic, 50 trainers and 10 energy. Darkrai can afford any tech it wants, while other decks dont have that chance. The side deck allows those decks the chance to be competitive. The ban list keeps Darkrai and Blastoise in check, like they do in other game.

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I was calling for change for the core game in those thread but someone posted it would be better as a unofficial format next to standard. Its to my understanding that PTO are allowed 1 unofficial tournament a format. I dont really know the details of that but I would like to see something more competitive than current Standard.

Literally any deck can run any card/tech it wants. You aren't obligated to run 4 Junipers, and if putting a tech in is so important you can take out cards to make space for it

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What is this now... this makes no sense.

I think he's referring to the "fun tournaments" which occasionally pop up, and are worth ONLY play points.

 

[vaporeon]

If you're really having that much trouble with a deck you can always change your decklist or outright change to a new deck.

And yes Dark does have an effective counters. Fairy for instance has resistance and ways to OHKO Yveltal, and Raichu OHKOs Yveltal at the smaller cost of a single prize. Genesect can G Booster it burning the energies that could work against it. Yveltal is far from broken.

Fairy has resistance but the heavy attackers still can take heavy damage. For example, Yveltal EX can deal 190 to Xerneas EX AFTER resistance. All it needs is A darkness energy and DCE, mucsle band, virbank city gym, laser and 4x energy on Xerneas. This happens to me each time I play it against darkrai, when I hope they cant. With my other deck using using Fairy Transfer and attacked with Zapdos's Agility (failing the switch) and Yveltal still hit it for 170 with lasers and virbank. I only have 2 energy. This is very common.

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Literally any deck can run any card/tech it wants. You aren't obligated to run 4 Junipers, and if putting a tech in is so important you can take out cards to make space for it

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I think he's referring to the "fun tournaments" which occasionally pop up, and are worth ONLY play points.

You are correct about the fun tournaments. no reason we cant try it there right? As for making space, most decks cant make space for these techs. Why sacrifice needed cards, ruining deck consistency for techs?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Fairy has resistance but the heavy attackers still can take heavy damage. For example, Yveltal EX can deal 190 to Xerneas EX AFTER resistance. All it needs is A darkness energy and DCE, mucsle band, virbank city gym, laser and 4x energy on Xerneas. This happens to me each time I play it against darkrai, when I hope they cant. With my other deck using using Fairy Transfer and attacked with Zapdos's Agility (failing the switch) and Yveltal still hit it for 170 with lasers and virbank. I only have 2 energy. This is very common.

I never said that it couldn't be KO'd and such situations aren't necessarily easy to pull off in rapid succession. Especially if HTLs are used before hand and Virbank gets discarded (which is common since Fairy plays Fairy Garden), and also Fairy can also play Slurpuff to avoid HTL.

Just because extreme situations exist does not mean that they should be used to justify anything.

 

[LOLZ]

I think he's referring to the "fun tournaments" which occasionally pop up, and are worth ONLY play points.

That is funny, considering fun formats like these are no sanctionable and are not eligible for Play! Points, as the tournament is not official. If a TO is running a tournament like this and passing it off as a legal format in the eyes of pokemon.com... they can get in trouble.

 

[Mekkah]

After reading through this thread and your side deck one, two things became too clear to me.

1) You don't understand competitive Pokémon, at least at a higher level
The fact that you want to restrict a card like Aromatisse to 2 per deck implies you think playing 3 or 4 would be a good idea, but it isn't. I know you call yourself a creative and unorthodox deck builder at times, but I question whether you can even build a proper standard list. Which is a necessary skill if you wish to change the game. Right now, you come across as someone who fails at the supported format and tries to change the rules to fit your "playstyle". In other words, you're creating your own Pokémon, but with blackjack and hookers.

2) You cannot take constructive criticism
Almost every post in this topic disagrees with you and gives you a good reason for it. You never changed your stance on anything, instead giving either excuses or just points of view that only you support. It's very telling.

In order for an alternative format to have any relevance at all, you will need to cater to people, whether you like it or not. Right now, there's only one person who would play your format. Look at the 150 unlimited thing: it has a few different people playing it, but the guy who made it has been advertising it everywhere and it's very clear that it just does not pick up steam at all. His forums and facebook page are still rather dead. Alternative formats are ridiculously hard to get off the ground.

 

[vaporeon]

After reading through this thread and your side deck one, two things became too clear to me.

1) You don't understand competitive Pokémon, at least at a higher level
The fact that you want to restrict a card like Aromatisse to 2 per deck implies you think playing 3 or 4 would be a good idea, but it isn't. I know you call yourself a creative and unorthodox deck builder at times, but I question whether you can even build a proper standard list. Which is a necessary skill if you wish to change the game. Right now, you come across as someone who fails at the supported format and tries to change the rules to fit your "playstyle". In other words, you're creating your own Pokémon, but with blackjack and hookers.

2) You cannot take constructive criticism
Almost every post in this topic disagrees with you and gives you a good reason for it. You never changed your stance on anything, instead giving either excuses or just points of view that only you support. It's very telling.

In order for an alternative format to have any relevance at all, you will need to cater to people, whether you like it or not. Right now, there's only one person who would play your format. Look at the 150 unlimited thing: it has a few different people playing it, but the guy who made it has been advertising it everywhere and it's very clear that it just does not pick up steam at all. His forums and facebook page are still rather dead. Alternative formats are ridiculously hard to get off the ground.

1) I understand competitive Pokemon. I'm a competent deck builder and understands the format. In my experience with fairy decks, playing anything other than 3 Aromatisse is as bad idea. IF you can get by with 2 then good for you but with things like prized and bad starts being a thing, the extra one makes the difference. I choose to not play standard decks because its not fun and boring. Rather I play with fun and creative decks. I don't wear it as a badge of honor or anything but you're entitled to what you think. However, I can also say because you only play standard, you can't look at the game and see nothing wrong with it when in fact there is. I suggest you play some rogue or non standard decks and you'll see what I mean. I can play standard decks and rogue decks while you only play standard. I see the game differently then you.

2) I can take criticism, however most post here aren't constructive. The post here are "this is the worst post I've ever read" or "This won't work". That's not constructive. Since my post tend to turn into debates between me versus the gym, I feel the need to defend my post. I feel like the Anti Christ at time because most here are so closed minded. I posted reasons to why I would ban cards that I feel are justified, rather than post as list and leaving it at that. If you want to post against it, then do it but I will do my best to respond to it. Dont expect me to make a post, someone shoots it down and that be it.

I do believe my format does cater to people. Some out there want a more competitive Pokemon TCG. I've tried to get magic and yugioh players to play Pokemon. Most dont or laugh at the game because they think its too easy to do well. If I can get them to play a pokemon the way they are used to, perhaps they will play standard. The ONLY reason different formats like 150 dont work here is because Pokemon players dont want to try new things, its like it scares them and I dont understand that. Rather than try something out to see if you all like it, you just shoot it down.

 

[Victory Bell]

Let me tell you why you don't understand ban lists.

This ban list basically hits every big deck in the format (ignoring Tropical Beach for whatever reason, but alright). You can't just hit every good deck and expect to have a balanced format. Much more work is put into ban lists of other games. Days of playtesting, I'm sure. Your bans are completely indiscriminate. This creates a totally different format, and it doesn't cater to people, or make it more competitive. The list is obviously untested, and new decks will rise to fill the shoes of the ones that were either nerfed or destroyed. There is nothing saying those new decks won't be just as broken, if not more broken, in the new metagame that you have created. This only will require more bans by your logic. There will always be best decks that people will complain about in EVERY format, including the one that you are creating. You have to ask yourself, what does banning Yveltal, G Booster, and others, enable to be good? And also, what cards are overpowered in a format without those current top cards? Well, it's clear that you didn't do that.

You're not helping the metagame or the format. You're completely altering it without extensive forethought or testing. The point of bans and restrictions are to remove toxic or broken decks from the format. While it could be argued that that is the case for every top deck right now, it looks like you're just picking decks to nerf based on popularity, which is completely backward and wrong. Mega Charizard SUCKS. Now, if you hadn't so rashly banned it, it might actually be able to succeed in a format without Rayboar or Yveltal being threats. All you needed to do to dark decks was to ban Yveltal. You didn't have to hit Sableye, Dark Claw, and others.

If I had to make a ban list, one card would be on it - Hypnotoxic Laser. With some many Plus Power type cards already in the format, Laser creates a format the revolves around one shots. Laser is the enabler behind this, putting many hits for 140 put to the magic 170 number. Laser creates a metagame where the best strategy is to get ahead quickly, and rely on drawing cards, like Laser, that let you trade your way to victory.

But all of that pales in comparison to this injustice.

Limited- 1 Per Deck/Side Deck

Leafeon -Plasma Freeze- 011

...

...Try to keep bias out of it and think of the health of the game as a whole. Thank you for reading.

Why are you biased against Leafeon.

 

[carlitosbob]

Why are you biased against Leafeon.

Probably because he loads up xernias with 4 Energy and has to have 4 more on the field because of yveltal.

 

[Krusiv]

If I had to make a ban list, one card would be on it - Hypnotoxic Laser. With some many Plus Power type cards already in the format, Laser creates a format the revolves around one shots. Laser is the enabler behind this, putting many hits for 140 put to the magic 170 number. Laser creates a metagame where the best strategy is to get ahead quickly, and rely on drawing cards, like Laser, that let you trade your way to victory.

That is certainly one way to look at it. With the cards we have now, do you think a better meta would arise with Laser being gone? It may be the enabler for one shots but I see that as a good thing. The way I see it Laser helps bridge the gap between good and bad, thus making things more viable. It may be a stale way of going about it but I would rather have a lot of 'good' decks compared to that one good deck that one-shots everything and all of the other decks that can't keep up.

 

[vaporeon]

Let me tell you why you don't understand ban lists.

This ban list basically hits every big deck in the format (ignoring Tropical Beach for whatever reason, but alright). You can't just hit every good deck and expect to have a balanced format. Much more work is put into ban lists of other games. Days of playtesting, I'm sure. Your bans are completely indiscriminate. This creates a totally different format, and it doesn't cater to people, or make it more competitive. The list is obviously untested, and new decks will rise to fill the shoes of the ones that were either nerfed or destroyed. There is nothing saying those new decks won't be just as broken, if not more broken, in the new metagame that you have created. This only will require more bans by your logic. There will always be best decks that people will complain about in EVERY format, including the one that you are creating. You have to ask yourself, what does banning Yveltal, G Booster, and others, enable to be good? And also, what cards are overpowered in a format without those current top cards? Well, it's clear that you didn't do that.

You're not helping the metagame or the format. You're completely altering it without extensive forethought or testing. The point of bans and restrictions are to remove toxic or broken decks from the format. While it could be argued that that is the case for every top deck right now, it looks like you're just picking decks to nerf based on popularity, which is completely backward and wrong. Mega Charizard SUCKS. Now, if you hadn't so rashly banned it, it might actually be able to succeed in a format without Rayboar or Yveltal being threats. All you needed to do to dark decks was to ban Yveltal. You didn't have to hit Sableye, Dark Claw, and others.

If I had to make a ban list, one card would be on it - Hypnotoxic Laser. With some many Plus Power type cards already in the format, Laser creates a format the revolves around one shots. Laser is the enabler behind this, putting many hits for 140 put to the magic 170 number. Laser creates a metagame where the best strategy is to get ahead quickly, and rely on drawing cards, like Laser, that let you trade your way to victory.

But all of that pales in comparison to this injustice.



Why are you biased against Leafeon.

Thats the problem with ban list, something else may/will show up. if its a problem shows up, its looked at. Right now, there isn't anything thing that would be a problem. Sableye is banned because of its over-utility in 1 deck, which is the problem with dark decks. Leafeon is on the list because its very hard to play around. It can deal up to a extra 60 damage through the use of virbank laser and bangle and having 4 of them in play is almost a game ender. Its too much of a "bully" if you will. I dont expect decks to "not play" just to avoid 1 attacker. When paired with other decks like Empoleon and raichu that hit very hard to start with, leafeon just ends games. I chose to put it at one to reduce that bully factor.

Also like I said this list is not the be all and needs to be tested. I only posted cards that I feel should be looked at and gave reasons for it. Glad we agree on lasers though.

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Probably because he loads up xernias with 4 Energy and has to have 4 more on the field because of yveltal.

Come on, Im not that bad a player...

 

[MiniWade]

This format isn't even as bad as when we had that stormfront Sableye. THAT card deserved being banned because of how it could end games in one turn making it very unfair, I don't see any other card that could single handedly ruin the format, that doesn't have a counter towards it. Do you?

 

[vaporeon]

This format isn't even as bad as when we had that stormfront Sableye. THAT card deserved being banned because of how it could end games in one turn making it very unfair, I don't see any other card that could single handedly ruin the format, that doesn't have a counter towards it. Do you?

Well that Sableye technically wasn't banned. They just moved the rotation date up. They never said that Sableye could not be used.

 

[k4w4]

https://www.facebook.com/kcpokemon/app_115462065200508

Seens you got the ideia from the Palace format.
Instead of creating a "Palace 2.0" format, just play the original one. Invite others to try. If this is sucessful, maybe, MAYBE those ppl wanna try a BW-on or even XY-on Palace format.

 

[SMP88]

Thats the problem with ban list, something else may/will show up. if its a problem shows up, its looked at. Right now, there isn't anything thing that would be a problem. Sableye is banned because of its over-utility in 1 deck, which is the problem with dark decks. Leafeon is on the list because its very hard to play around. It can deal up to a extra 60 damage through the use of virbank laser and bangle and having 4 of them in play is almost a game ender. Its too much of a "bully" if you will. I dont expect decks to "not play" just to avoid 1 attacker. When paired with other decks like Empoleon and raichu that hit very hard to start with, leafeon just ends games. I chose to put it at one to reduce that bully factor.

Also like I said this list is not the be all and needs to be tested. I only posted cards that I feel should be looked at and gave reasons for it. Glad we agree on lasers though.

Name one T1 deck that utilizes Leafeon in the manner you suggest. Your reasoning for restricting the card is because it can combo with 3 other cards to deal an addition 60 damage, with 2/3 cards you mentioned being a part of your ban/restriction list. Realistically, any card that does any damage does an extra 60 when comboed with Laser, Virbank and Bangle. Why is Leafeon any different?

You were right on one thing though, Leafeon can close out games. What's wrong with that exactly? Why is it bad for there to be a card that takes 2 turns to come out and then can close out the last 1-3 prizes? Most of the time this doesn't happen though, because once Leafeon KOs the first Pokemon a couple energies are discarded, which reduces Leafeon's attack.

It's been stated a couple times already, but it doesn't look like much thought was put into this. All this seems to be is you banning/restricting the cards that make up the majority of meta decks because your own rogue decks can't beat the meta decks.

 

[vaporeon]

Name one T1 deck that utilizes Leafeon in the manner you suggest. Your reasoning for restricting the card is because it can combo with 3 other cards to deal an addition 60 damage, with 2/3 cards you mentioned being a part of your ban/restriction list. Realistically, any card that does any damage does an extra 60 when comboed with Laser, Virbank and Bangle. Why is Leafeon any different?

You were right on one thing though, Leafeon can close out games. What's wrong with that exactly? Why is it bad for there to be a card that takes 2 turns to come out and then can close out the last 1-3 prizes? Most of the time this doesn't happen though, because once Leafeon KOs the first Pokemon a couple energies are discarded, which reduces Leafeon's attack.

It's been stated a couple times already, but it doesn't look like much thought was put into this. All this seems to be is you banning/restricting the cards that make up the majority of meta decks because your own rogue decks can't beat the meta decks.

Cards that are used in the meta are normally the ones that are placed on ban list. I chose these cards so other decks can have a chance to shine. Does not matter if it affects my rogues or not. In a meta where everyone uses the same decks, no issue is seen but there is one. In this format, creativity is expected, therefor more fun is had. Again, since people dont want to read, this list was made with cards I felt were a problem. The list needs to be tested to see if any of these cards need to be removed. if anyone wants to help test it to see what needs to be added or removed, then its welcomed.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

OP wants to play with theme decks, lmao

 

[vaporeon]

OP wants to play with theme decks, lmao

Not sure I said that but do you have anything constructive to add?