Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Dear TPCi: Scrap the disaster that is 50+3!

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Presenting this argument against 50+3 leads me to believe you would not be in favor of more time for Best of 3? (Ness has argued for 75 minutes.)

This is my concern…that everyone just asking for ANY change, without specifying what the change should ideally be…everyone will still not be happy.

To me, this is a big issue with few apparent solutions. One thing I would suggest is the return of the "4 Prize Cards" rule, which makes a game count if either player has taken at least 4 Prize Cards. While it does hurt a few decks, it would drastically reduce the number of ties we normally see at tournaments. I was quite surprised when I found out this rule had been done away with.

Of course, this does little to alleviate player exhaustion.
 
Okay, so...from what I remember from the last time concerns over this format was brought up (back before it was implemented), the point of the rule change was never to allow players to complete a full 3-game match in the time allotted (50 minutes was too short a time limit for that), it was to ensure one full game of Pokémon was played. The purpose of allowing ties was to have matches end on time, which was a major concern of tournament staff.

Extending the amount of time in the round is a non-starter because, well, even with this system, apparently Swiss is lasting absurd lengths of time. Forcing a winner to be determined in Swiss rounds is a non-starter for the same reason, end of match procedures to determine a victor take time, and in any large enough tournament, will happen every round.

So really, the options that are on the table are this, or going back to single game matches during Swiss. Is Best-of-3 bad enough that best-of-one is preferable?
 
I would argue that with people literally dropping physical ill from 2 Day Regional-level events, the situation will be no better at the 3 Day, 15, Bo3 Round tournament that Nationals will be this year. The logistics of a 500 person, Bo3 tournament have proved to be chaos at some Regionals this year, let alone the ~1,000 player madness Nats is.

I would not at all whatsoever mind seeing Best of 3 Swiss replaced with more Best of 1 Swiss rounds at Nationals this year, and would honestly prefer this approach. Do I believe it will happen? Absolutely not. Do I believe there's a shred of use in me stating that? Also likely not.

For the 2015 Season, however, Swiss+1(or 2) Bo1 rounds would certainly be my desired outcome, and the desired outcome of plenty of people I've spoken with.

The goal of Best of 3 from TPCI's perspective has been stated to be to get one good game in the time limit. I believe that is a silly goal, but I digress. Best of 3 offered donk protection, however, the rules now prohibit donks. The goal to play 1 complete game is incompatible with the current format; I would struggle to say most matches fail to complete at least two games, leading to ties.

I have little issue with ties themselves, and can see argument for their use in Best of 1. Best of 3 makes tournaments longer,—excruciatingly so in some cases—has had one of its main uses eliminated, and introduces incentive for frequent collusion at some records in later rounds. Ties have seemed much less frequent in Best of 1 than at Best of 3 events, something I believe a symptom of the inadequacies of the Best of 3 format.

The benefits simply don't think outweigh the costs in my view.
 
The only 2 events I've played this season used 50+3.

I feel there are many options to try out now that we've given 50+3 a good run, and players are a little unhappy with the time constraints.

As far as I see it, there are 3 easy options that can replace this format:

1. 60+3. This system would drag tournaments out even longer, thus not solving the "days take forever" problem, but at least solving the "dissatisfied feeling" problem. 10 extra minutes are greatly appreciated. Even 55+3 would be better.

2. Reintroduce tie-breaking procedures. One of the reasons 50+3 has been so frustrating is that a winner in game 3 has been unobtainable. I've seen many games end after 3 turns where one player has only 1-2 prizes left, and would win the next turn, or at least in the next couple turns. The system of "over 50% of prizes taken etc..." was a good tie-breaking procedure. With the new first turn rule, it would be difficult for fast decks to abuse this system like they could have in the past. A slower deck like e.g. Trevenant/Accelgor would probably feel just as comfortable playing in the 50+3 environment even if this restriction was put in place. I think this change would be met with raucous applause by the player base. This also doesn't aid the "days take forever" problem, but that might be a sacrifice we as players have to make if we want a "Best of 3" format. I see no way around that problem without...

3. Returning to single-game swiss. There are merits to this approach in the current format. One is that this system does away with the exceptionally long tournaments. That's probably the best reason to consider this option. Two would be that deck interactions seem to have become more complex since the new first turn rule was introduced, and fewer games are won on speed and power alone (the bane of the old Single-game Swiss system). This second reason is more of a "lesser of two evils" acknowledgement, as I am sure implementing this system would have players crying out "BS format, dead draw = tournament loss" and such. But players will always complain, reducing those complaints as much as possible is how to measure success.

One way to minimize problems with Single-game Swiss is to add more swiss rounds. Swiss+3 rounds cutting to Top 8 would still result in shorter tournaments, with a reasonable appeasement for the players that lose out on luck early. I'm sure players would be dissatisfied with the Top 8 cut, but they are already, so nothing lost there at least. The overall record is what players are looking at as an unfair cut right now, despite the Bo3 system. For instance, A 7-round tournament where 5-1-1's are missing top cut would become 10 rounds where 8-1-1 is more difficult to obtain. Using Sixprizes' Top Cut calculator, it reports that a 100-person tournament with 10 rounds of swiss would result in ~2.5 records of 7-3 making Top Cut. Given Ties, I imagine that would be reduced, but I bet you would exclude fewer equal records with this system.

Beyond these, there are many more options worth exploring. For instance, making Top Cut stretch deeper and giving Byes in the first round of Top Cut to top-placing swiss finishers. This would allow more players to play off in Top Cut, with fewer rounds of swiss, obtaining a similar overall length to an event. This would be a similar system to the single-elimination Top Cuts of VGC Regionals in 2011. Just cut until an even-numbered bracket is obtained. But you could design it such that... say... the Top 4 from swiss get a Bye, and you cut down to Top 12. This would let 12th-5th play a round, then re-introduce the Top 4 seeded appropriately, and you've only added 1 round of cut. It rewards strong swiss finishers and ensures that equivalent high-winning records aren't excluded. This would be a system that goes quite well with single-game swiss reintroductions. If long events are a concern, Swiss+2 rounds would be met with a better response if there was a smaller chance of whiffing cut when you're X-2 (though running simulations on the calculator, +3 rounds is highly preferable).

I trust TPCi and Play! Pokemon to do what's best for the player base in the future! I'm very happy to have seen a great improvement in the format and tournament structure this year overall; although I've been unable to play as often as I'd like. I think overall players at least appreciate Bo3 more than the former single-game swiss structure. But now players are more tired and exhausted at the end of the day, and reflect on the day with more negative emotion than they did with the single-game structure, creating a more negative tournament experience overall. For this assumed reason, I think solving the "long day" syndrome is the top priority, and am thus in favour of option #3 from my proposed list. But this is your guys' job, and you'll spend a lot more time thinking and considering this than someone like me! Looking forward to what you come up with for the future!
 
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I don't mind the 2/3 at all, but I really dislike 50 minutes. Like many others, ties have cost me my entire tournament. Please get rid of this awful system!
 
What's there to discuss, everyone seems to dislike this system…

But, I can't help but wonder that if (somehow) a change is done, when will it be done?

Next format?
Next month?
Tomorrow?
 
What's there to discuss, everyone seems to dislike this system…

But, I can't help but wonder that if (somehow) a change is done, when will it be done?

Next format?
Next month?
Tomorrow?

There's a lot to discuss actually. For years people have been wanting Best of 3, but as seen this year this demand may have been in poor taste. This year Arizona had to postpone top cut until the following morning, and I for one am opposed to two day States becoming a norm (especially when the main tournament nears midnight if not later which lengthening matches would do unquestionably)

As for when the format can be changed, probably after States at the earliest, we've seen radical changes happen before (BW anyone?)

And can we have a conversation that doesn't get overly rowdy for a change? I for one (and I doubt I'm alone) find my demeanor and patience to decline rather quickly when the conversation gets so adamant.

(Sorry if I come off a little upset, personal stuff, and this current topic's direction hasn't done much to improve it)
 
TheRolesWePlay, I actually think this is one of the more composed discussions to occur on the Pokegym lately, and don't quite understand why you feel a need to call it "rowdy." Why the "direction" of this thread—it simply seems to be a large number of people expressing strongly their opinion on an issue—is upsetting to you bewilders me.
 
I've played in two Regional Championships and two State Championships under the 50/3. I have tied three times over the course of the time. My speed tendencies are pretty quick IMO. However, the current game design isn't really meant for 50+3. All you have to do is bench 2-3 170/180HP Pokemon and just sit there for 10-20 minutes after Games 1 and 2 and games a tie. Esp with the ridiculous heal cards like Super Potion and Max Potion (Esp. Max Potion) you can just sit there retreating and heal until time is called. I don't think the game was made or designed to be played out in that degree. This past weekend at the State Championship in Nevada, the entire tournament feel was hostile by the 50 minutes by players just playing for a tie half the time. It was the most un Pokemon like atmosphere i've ever been apart of. Many other players who have been playing for years have felt the same way about it.

It's great that TPCI tried something new to improve the tournament scene, it's great that they are trying to improve the tournament scene, but this one was a flop and I'd wish they go back to how it was. Even more rounds would be more productive IMO.
 
But, I can't help but wonder that if (somehow) a change is done, when will it be done?

Next format?
Next month?
Tomorrow?

Hard to determine what the people want. But next season is the next natural opportunity. I'd say too late for Spring Regionals since venues are already booked, players notified, schedules planned, etc. Nationals would appear to be the only chance to do something meaningful before next season.
 
I agree with Crawdaunt on the majority of his points. I realize the TPCi was trying to assuage the luck/donk complaining players with the new tournament structure, but almost doubling the length of events does much more harm than good. Players get rushed and exhausted, and staff certainly aren't any better off. I think that the new rules address the donk issue well enough that 2/3 isn't needed.

At States this past weekend, only one of my Swiss rounds went to game 3. Even being a reasonably fast player, playing against a very fast plasma deck, we ended in a tie. The game is going to have a heavy amount of luck no matter what changes are instituted. The new rules and the standard 30+3 single rounds create a balance between time-to-play and expediency of events.
 
TheRolesWePlay, I actually think this is one of the more composed discussions to occur on the Pokegym lately, and don't quite understand why you feel a need to call it "rowdy." Why the "direction" of this thread—it simply seems to be a large number of people expressing strongly their opinion on an issue—is upsetting to you bewilders me.

I'll admit I'm on edge atm (again personal stuff), and I really only skimmed the start. I'm not really going to go further than that atm.
 
I have played the 2/3 50 minute format since the beginning of the season, and while I thought it was fine before catcher was errata'd, it's current state is not healthy for the game. Jason's article is very good and some of those idea's are definitely worth considering. I will agree with the notion of playing more single game swiss rounds
 
When Bo3 was announced, I was super excited! And the first time I played in a Bo3 tournament, I had fairly good success, and enjoyed Bo3 (Texas Reg). But now with catcher being nerved, I feel like it has made games go much much much slower. Now it is easier for your opponent to force the tie by sending up a "tank" or "buffer" pokemon to stall out.
I think Bo3 is still a great direction to head in. But I think something needs to be done about ties and top cuts. Ties are causing most of our problems, between ID's and stalling. I think if we go back to prize rules on time, then we can save time, and reduce slow play.
Also the small top cuts for large events is just ridiculous. When there are 100+ players at a state championship, and you cut down to less that 10% for top cut, it makes it somewhat unfair for those few players that had good records but bad resistance.

The one thing I don't agree with other players on, is that Bo3 is "too exhausting." I agree that it can be exhausting, but thats where it just comes to how you prepare. The mental strain of Bo3 weeds out skilled players from unprepared players.
 
I haven't played the game in some time, and at first, was very happy to see Bo3 instituted. I strongly considered coming back to the game. However, after hearing about the awful experience that comes with 50+3 being entirely insufficient to play 3 games, it has really deterred me from attending tournaments again. Bo3 is ideal, but if it is going to be done, it needs to be done right. I'm not entirely sure what the point of having Bo3 is if the probability of actually completing 3 games is fairly low. 75+3 is the natural solution. I do of course understand the logistical difficulty of implementing such a system, but for tournaments where people are dedicating their entire weekend to begin with, I think the serious players who do attend such events (and pay to enter) will tolerate a longer tournament in order to immensely improve the experience. If fixed, I can definitely see myself, as well others in my situation, come back to the game.
 
How many would turn around and leave then? Unless part of the change is tell the exhausted, sickened players to just suck it up, 75+3 is not a natural solution.

Any change proposed has to do the greatest good for the greatest amount of people to stand a chance of being adopted. This includes Juniors and Seniors and their parents, the Masters, the event organizers, and the staff. Increasing time of each round by 50% only satisfies the most serious players as you say.
 
I think most players aren't worried about exhaustion, and kind of throw that in. In sure a few have been exhausted and it's probably not good if you got little sleep or were sick entering the tournament. But players going to tournaments hungover, with little sleep, or trying to fight off a sickness bug is nothing new. I remember at my first regional I attended (8 rounds, 30 minute Swiss), there were multiple players throwing up in the bathroom.

At the end of the day, you're sitting down for like 9 hours, it's not that exhausting, especially with some natural down time between rounds. I don't think we can base a tournament structure around people not being physically fit enough to sit down for 9 hours, or players not getting sleep, coming hungover, not planning ahead with snacks and water, those things are the players responsibility to take care of. If you come to a tournament sick, it will probably suck.

From what I gathered, the one regional that a lot of people got sick at was a result of poor venue and location, with most players getting sick from eating undercooked good from Denny's or the temperature of the venue, not the actual act of playing a bunch of 50 minute Swiss rounds.

30 minutes, 35 minutes...75 minutes. Which one I don't think matters too much to the players at this point. I think what most players want are just concrete results, not these gray area results filled with unfinished games and ties. The hyper competitive might want 75 minutes to reduce variance (it's be my personal preference), but I think most of the community just wants a tournament structure conductive to ties. With that, 30-35
minute single game Swiss with the old top cuts is probably the best solution.

Although with Nationals being 3 days, I don't see much reason why they can't do like 7 rounds 75 minute Swiss day 1, I believe 3 more rounds the next day along with the 5 rounds of Top 32, followed
By Top 8 on Sunday.
 
Charranitar, have you actually attended a Regional Championship that managed to do 9 Rounds in 9 hours? For that matter, I know some states with 7 rounds that ran 9 hours after lunch is factored in.

I've been at four regionals this year, and the best time was 11am R1 start-11:30pm R9 finish. Then there was the 10:30-1:30am fiasco, and others in between. That's not even factoring in the fact that people are down in a venue for registration a solid hour earlier then that.


I don't believe fitting 8-9 rounds of 75+3 in one day is something likely to be achieved at a large event like Regionals, let alone Nationals. At Regionals, if you make Swiss go on to Day 2, you're still getting very late by the time 5 more T32 rounds and 3 Top Cut rounds are played.

That said, adjusting the time limits on Bo3 doesn't seem to be feasible. Bo3 is something TPCI has clearly acknowledged as strenuous on the lower divisions as it is, and it certainly isn't something that I feel is a positive for the majority of the playerbase, nor most of the staff on events.
 
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