Did the new rules really had impact?

[Rainbowgym]

I wonder how much the new rules really made a difference?
We just started reading the DP cards, because we didn't want to untill our Nationals was done.

I saw Infernape/Delcatty is doing well, but also still Metanite, Banette end up high.
I looks to me you only should worry if you have to start first and have only 1 basic, because that could be your last turn too.

No rare candy/great ball allowed for the player going first, did it had a lot of impact??
And is Pluspower really used that much?

I am still struggeling to explain those new trainerrules to my kids. It's not easy to understand for them.
Were there many "misplays" during Battle Roads?

Just wondering.

 

[meganium45]

The #1 misplay I saw was players forgetting to draw a card on their first turn when they went first.

I STILL have trouble with that one..but don't worry Professor Cups, or Nat's Fodder, I will be properly trained by Friday!

Vince

 

[Burninating_Torchic]

The inability to play any trainers t1 is huge IMO.
And the fossil thing makes it so stall decks are impossible to play.

 

[beatlerat]

I think that the new rules really do make an impact. NOT being able to play a Trainer(s) on the first turn in no way makes up for the card being drawn. A friend of mine and I had this very conversation today, and if I may quote him:

Infernape also offers the nearly unbeatable (only when going second) 80 damage dealing combo of Chimchar + rare candy + Infernape + DRE. And when you are going second you get to use a supporter (or any other trainer for that matter) to try to get one or two of the four, if you didn't get it in the first eight. It's almost worth conceding the toss for a shot at it.

The "no trainer when you 'win' the toss" is a poor ruling trying to decrease the advantage of going first. Now it's an extreme disadvantage to go first. The guy going first gets to put down basic pokémon, play an energy, and attack - that's it! The guy going second gets to play any number of non-supporter trainer cards he might have, then play a supporter, then play any other basic pokémon or non-supporter trainer cards that the supporter may have netted him, attach the energy, then attack. How in the world can POP reason that the eighth card fairly compensates for that?

Let's recap:
First guy has (at least) one basic. May play another basic if he happened to draw one at the start of his turn (1). Attach an energy card (2). Attack (3) - three actions, tops!

Second guy also has (at least) one basic and may play another (1). May play any number of non-supporter trainer cards, balls, stadium cards, tool cards, energy search, etc. (up to 7, but let's be reasonable and assume that a deck would usually net you about 2 of these at the start) (2, 3). Play a supporter (4). Play more cards off that supporter (once again I'll be conservative and say 2 more cards to play) (5, 6). Attach the energy (7). Attack (8).

That's an 8-3 edge!! Holy guacamole!! If you don't get another basic with that precious eighth card it's an 8+ to 2 edge!

Adios Super Stantler, you don't get to put Cessation Crystal out first turn, but your opponent does get to play rare candy cards, evolve into Infernape and/or Delcatty, Energy Draw, H. Lass to get the DRE, and roast you on HIS first turn!

Your only hope is that your Basic Pokemon can do 20 and your Opponent's Pokemon is weak +30. Your opponent still OHKO's on his first turn. I have always liked the way Pokemon tries to limit the amount of draw cards, and we keep finding ways to draw them. But there is an overwhelming advantage to going second (IMO) that still needs some tweaking.

 

[Robbgobb]

I agree that no Trainer cards first turn hurts because of the quickness of player going second if playing the right deck. Have to say that I have seen multiple 1st turn Infernape DRE 80 damage. Would have been nice if could have played something if going first whether a trainer or supporter just because of the quick games from 1 turn. Have to say remembering to draw going first is really hard to get use to for me.

The new HP and weakness/resistance is something that can be hard as well. Some kids have argued about that because they thought something was knocked out because they are use to weakness doing double damage.

 

[Prime]

I 100% agree that going first is in no shape or way equal to going second. If you can get to the mid-part of the game, you might not see a difference in who started which turn, but like I said, IF you get to the mid-part of the game.

With DRE and Poke-Powers that allow you to attach extra energy, attaching energy first (going first) means nothing.

With rare candy and baby evolution, etc that allow you to evolve in one turn, evolving first (going first, second turn) means nothing.

With so many supporters and ways to grab supporters in decks, being able to draw a card means nothing.

It's astounding how unequal they are.

 

[rokman]

I think whoever goes first should be allowed to play supporters, but not trainers. That might even everything out a TAD.

 

[Dom]

I think it hurts Slaking a LOT.

 

[(TYranitarFReak)]

of course it had an impact! If not delta decks would've extincted (nasty machop T1 P1 + pluspower)

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

I like the new rules. Going first isn't as bad as it used to be, though its still usually worse. I'd rather get that extra card than play trainers, unless you have a ridiculous Rare Candy t1 something type of hand, and I'm glad those things happen slightly less now.

 

[Professor Elm]

Everybody was freaking out, but it really hasn't been a big deal.

The No trainers on T1 creates a problem for some decks because a T1 Rare Candy can be crutial OR a T1 Cessation Crystal or Stadium lock (not so much as Candy, but still)

 

[NoPoke]

There was a time in the past when we (incorrectly it turned out) believed that neither player was allowed to evolve first turn. I think I'd like to see that rule come back. I'm not sure that allowing stadium and tools to be played first turn would have much impact to even up the 1st/2nd ballance but it wouldn't hurt either.

There are lots of variants that would allow both players a bit of time to get going. Such as no attaching energy first turn, or no attacking first turn. The aim would be to allow both players at least one turn of trainers before the first knock out was possible. We have to wait and see what PCL think of the impact of the new D&P rules- which is going to be determined a lot by how the metagame develops in Japan.

Here's the statistics for having two or more basics in play before your opponent gets to go rare candy, DRE KO.

8 basics : 61%
10 basics : 71%
12 basics : 78%
14 basics : 84%
16 basics : 89%

Without Assension or Call For Family like attacks it seems that we need to play between 13 and 16 basics, which doesn't leave a lot of room for evolution lines. The evolution decks are already under a bit of pressure with the deletion of Holon Transceiver.

Even 16 basics may not be enough, We have 16 in our R-gon-alike and it still got donked twice by flariados under the old rules.

20 basics: 95%

 

[The Gorn]

NoPoke, if you are suggesting that player #2 cannot Rare Candy on turn 1, I like that idea.

 

[bullados]

You forget the 4th action that can be taken on the first turn, and that's the one action that I *love* exploiting whenever posible. *BABY POWA!!!!!*

 

[rhodesia123]

Going 1st is still much much better than going 2nd. Evolve first, play energy first, draw a card first.

 

[paint panic]

Going 1st is still much much better than going 2nd. Evolve first, play energy first, draw a card first.

I disagree. With the prevalence of Rare Candy (and, to a much lesser extent, Wally's Training) in the format, being able to play Trainers first is being able to evolve first.

 

[rokman]

Going 1st is still much much better than going 2nd. Evolve first, play energy first, draw a card first.

Depends on what you are playing...

Raieggs wants to go second so it can mentor, delta draw.

Flariados wants to go first so it can win on it's second turn. (flareon drop, a ariados 70 ko)

 

[Dom]

Ehh there's not even that many Pokemon that can Rare Candy > Dre> KO not much can do 60ish for 2 energy, generally you'll need like weakness too.

I think second is a lot better, but always has been since the no Supporters going first was introduced a couple years ago.

 

[Jayson]

of course it had an impact! If not delta decks would've extincted (nasty machop T1 P1 + pluspower)

Machop can still do that if going second. And the player that went first didn't get to use any trainers to search for more pokemon, so if Castform's all they've got, they're gonna get benched T1 and there's nothing they can do about it.