Just_the_jerre
New Member
verry nice article pablo what about the matchup against Electivire ?
Still owwn you 5
Greetz Jeroen
Still owwn you 5
Greetz Jeroen
Empoleon/Infernape - One of the many revelations of Worlds 2007
- Thread starter Pablo
- Start date
Grandielle
New Member
Electivire might own this deck.Let's say 60-40? Unless Empoleon gets a fast set-up and snipe all those electabuzz before electivire comes out.All about speed in this matchup.No doubt
Well, Empoleon has a tough time vs anything Lucario to be honest. 90 HP means that hitting Aqua Jet flips is HUGE. I played Ambush at Nats and really really didn't want to be play against any of the Lucario decks going around because I knew that. Not being able to OHKO vs Lucario is bad.
The fact that Jolteon can OHKO Empoleon with only 40 damage on it sets up perfectly as well. One hit from Lucario and then Jolteon brings down an Empoleon, and unless the Jolteon already has damage on it, then it doesn't get killed the following turn.
A fast Lucario can wreck any slow set up, so if the Empoleon deck has to Corsola set up and you have a T2 Lucario, there is no reason you shouldn't win. You can even set up a fast win by 40/20ing T2 to a bench Piplup and Warp Pointing the following turn FTW.
The 4 Cessation Crystal were the killer, as my list only ran 2 Warp Point and 2 Giant Stump (1 Stump/1 Windstorm in the games vs Empoleon though). Not being able to use Powers is hurtful, but not so much that it will lose you the game. Cursed Stone damage was big as well, turning 2HKOs on the Eevees to 1HKOs.
The games I played..the first 2 were pretty blowoutish for me, but the 3rd vs Takuya was very close and it came down to him not having the 4th Cessation Crystal and me laying Espeon and Flareon the following turn, then attacking with Lucario, killing the bench Chimchar that was Candied, and doing 40 to the active Empoleon. If he rolled tails on either Burn or Confuse I won the game. Heads on Burn, tails on Confusion.
Obviously, it's a close matchup, but very fun and very frustrating at times too lol.
Hope that helped.
The fact that Jolteon can OHKO Empoleon with only 40 damage on it sets up perfectly as well. One hit from Lucario and then Jolteon brings down an Empoleon, and unless the Jolteon already has damage on it, then it doesn't get killed the following turn.
A fast Lucario can wreck any slow set up, so if the Empoleon deck has to Corsola set up and you have a T2 Lucario, there is no reason you shouldn't win. You can even set up a fast win by 40/20ing T2 to a bench Piplup and Warp Pointing the following turn FTW.
The 4 Cessation Crystal were the killer, as my list only ran 2 Warp Point and 2 Giant Stump (1 Stump/1 Windstorm in the games vs Empoleon though). Not being able to use Powers is hurtful, but not so much that it will lose you the game. Cursed Stone damage was big as well, turning 2HKOs on the Eevees to 1HKOs.
The games I played..the first 2 were pretty blowoutish for me, but the 3rd vs Takuya was very close and it came down to him not having the 4th Cessation Crystal and me laying Espeon and Flareon the following turn, then attacking with Lucario, killing the bench Chimchar that was Candied, and doing 40 to the active Empoleon. If he rolled tails on either Burn or Confuse I won the game. Heads on Burn, tails on Confusion.
Obviously, it's a close matchup, but very fun and very frustrating at times too lol.
Hope that helped.
deckmaster
Active Member
Killer article, the Infernape tech was amazing at the time!okeball:
okeball:shiftrymaster68
Active Member
At the time? It's still amazing! Great article Pablo, and a nearly unbelievable deck build by one of the most fantastic TCG minds in the world! When I first heard about an Empoleon/Ape deck going undefeated Day 1, I didn't believe it, but after some serious thinking, it couldn't make more sense!
pichu bros. rox
New Member
I remember Clint telling me what it was when I asked whats Yamato playing? "Its some weird 4-2-4 Empoleon and 4-2-4 Infernape, with 4 Candy and 4 DRE.It either T1 Flare Blitz or T1 Ice Blade T2 Aqua Jet GG. I trid making it but it didn't work"
Great deck.
Great deck.
(TYranitarFReak)
New Member
there u go, another soon-to-be-quoted post:biggrin:
headsrcool
New Member
Nice rticle Pablos, but what about the M&Ms match up?
I remember in the beginning when DP first came out, how everyone said that empoleon was so bad. But when empoleon really started to shine.....people dove onto that bandwagon. I guess hoping people wouldn't discover a card that I thought was so good...after they talked crap about it.
ryanvergel
New Member
When we first made Ambush we had corsola in it, but dropped it.
This isn't that far advanced from anything we Americans did. I don't understand the sentiment of "the japanese always being one step ahead".
At worst we Americans with like 4 people came up to a very similar deck that did better in our metagame. We didn't have any big fire-weak pokemon to worry about too much. MMs wasn't played at all, and the people who DID play it at nats messed it up big time (Pram/Chad, WHAT WERE WE THINKING!?) so the ape tech wouldn't have been as good.
Eh, Yamato is a golden god when it comes to pokemon, but I don't think we need to count down the americans. We came up with the same deck but with different techs for a different metagame >_>
This isn't that far advanced from anything we Americans did. I don't understand the sentiment of "the japanese always being one step ahead".
At worst we Americans with like 4 people came up to a very similar deck that did better in our metagame. We didn't have any big fire-weak pokemon to worry about too much. MMs wasn't played at all, and the people who DID play it at nats messed it up big time (Pram/Chad, WHAT WERE WE THINKING!?) so the ape tech wouldn't have been as good.
Eh, Yamato is a golden god when it comes to pokemon, but I don't think we need to count down the americans. We came up with the same deck but with different techs for a different metagame >_>
Ambush wasn't that original in the first place. Ambush was just teaming up a stage 1 that can snipe with Empoleon. Many people already had that concept down before Ambush was seen. Now, I would give credit to those who played Ambush at Nats on doing well with the deck first.
On the whole Japanese topic, I feel if Ambush would had been in our format for multiple tournaments (States, Regionals, etc) and done well consecutively, people would have started playing more decks like Meganium d, etc. But you know what, I doubt people would have tried Infernape with Empoleon. I don't think anyone thought about that idea, which just shows that even americans have something to learn in this game.
But Ambush was only seen at one tournament (Nats) before Worlds and thus no real metagame for Ambush could be made. And Ambush only make top 16 in Masters. I'm sure more americans at Worlds were teching for Absolutions and not Ambush. If anything, Ambush was partially a SD-dud.
On the whole Japanese topic, I feel if Ambush would had been in our format for multiple tournaments (States, Regionals, etc) and done well consecutively, people would have started playing more decks like Meganium d, etc. But you know what, I doubt people would have tried Infernape with Empoleon. I don't think anyone thought about that idea, which just shows that even americans have something to learn in this game.
But Ambush was only seen at one tournament (Nats) before Worlds and thus no real metagame for Ambush could be made. And Ambush only make top 16 in Masters. I'm sure more americans at Worlds were teching for Absolutions and not Ambush. If anything, Ambush was partially a SD-dud.
PSYCO829
New Member
first point, agreed, except for the not original part
second part, agreed til you get to the bold, then we have a problem
americans do NOT have alot to learn
we consecutively place high in worlds for having some of the best decks and best ideas
not thinking of teching infernape in empoleon, fine
did japan ever think of mynx? delta? heck, speed spread? we are talking entire decks here over one simple card techs
besides, why would anyone have teched ape in? no one expected alot of scizor ex, and thus no one would have bothered to tech for it
different metagames, vastly different ideas
3rd point, agreed
First point, I said it wasn't that original. It was original, since nobody has done well with Empoleon before that, but it wasn't LBS original or anything. It was a lot like Mario (stage 2 and stage 1 with no power/body combo).
Second point, yes, even Americans have things to learn. So what if Americans do well at worlds? Does it mean they know everything about the game? Not at all. Did you see what happened this year? You could say that the Americans just had bad luck, but everyone at worlds rely on good and bad luck to do well, and well, I feel the Americans just got outplayed. And I feel next year won't be too far off from this year if the invites stay the same. I could see an American world champ next year, but I don't see Americans ever dominating like they did in the past.
You can ask if Japan ever thought of mynx and delta and such, but they (the japanese) have a very different metagame and those decks might not have been needed, just like your excuse that the Americans never came up with infernape in empoleon because it wasn't needed. In the past years, americans have gotten ideas off of japan, but in the past few years, that hasn't happened because of how different the metagames are. Everybody doesn't have the same cards, so different regions will come up with different ideas. Japan didn't even HAVE power keepers until right before worlds. How are they to come up with Absolutions!?
Second point, yes, even Americans have things to learn. So what if Americans do well at worlds? Does it mean they know everything about the game? Not at all. Did you see what happened this year? You could say that the Americans just had bad luck, but everyone at worlds rely on good and bad luck to do well, and well, I feel the Americans just got outplayed. And I feel next year won't be too far off from this year if the invites stay the same. I could see an American world champ next year, but I don't see Americans ever dominating like they did in the past.
You can ask if Japan ever thought of mynx and delta and such, but they (the japanese) have a very different metagame and those decks might not have been needed, just like your excuse that the Americans never came up with infernape in empoleon because it wasn't needed. In the past years, americans have gotten ideas off of japan, but in the past few years, that hasn't happened because of how different the metagames are. Everybody doesn't have the same cards, so different regions will come up with different ideas. Japan didn't even HAVE power keepers until right before worlds. How are they to come up with Absolutions!?
Japanese players did at least know of Absolutions, who knows if they played it before or after the americans, and frankly who cares. It's not the Japanese or Americans who do well, its Chris Fulop, Jason K, Jimmy B. Jeremy M. etc. who have done well at Worlds, the fact that they are all americans has not helped them at all in doing better or worse, as nationality or amount of players from one nation doesn't affect the tournament at all.
There is so much luck in this game that any edge can affect so much. On the subject of population of certain nations, that was definitely an edge for that nation to end up winning worlds. But I'll agree that Jason K, Chris F, Jimmy B, and many others would do well regardless of the ratios. They are all truly great players, but this year I guess ran into bad luck and bad matchups and better and/or luckier opponents.
PSYCO829
New Member
fair enough, that you did
i believe it was fairly original, and using mario as a counter point hardly seems fair
one could use that idiology to say LBS spun off from metanite
one searches and set you up while the other supplies energy
and both are dual stage twos
mario isnt a good reference point IMHO
bold: i could but i never did
the other countries in the world had their way with our american players, and we were eliminated
it happens
as for the learning, i still strongly disagree
and we dont know everything about the game, nor are we the best in the world
as you pointed out, we did fall out at worlds
however, we are the forefront of deck creation, the head creators of new and original ideas, and our decks often show up in other countries, with vastly different metagames, and are used around the world
as for the domination, i hope we dont dominate again
personally, i prefer playing people from another country, and most american master players i talked to feel the same
as for the aerican world champ, we dont know
looking back, would anyone have predicted finland winning? no, i personally was expecting japan
bold: we got dp right before br's,and the deck was already bieng developed
the only reason i suspect it wasnt used is because no one wanted to reveal it at a mere battle road
exactly prime, different metagame
think for a minute, why would the japanese go looking at ape
their metagame required it
why didnt we look at ape? our metagame did not
would we have thought of it? who knows, but i dont doupt it at all
and ideas from japan will naturally happen, considering they get their sets 40 years before us =/
lets not let this turn into a spamfest, perhaps a PM conversation would be more appropriate