Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

"Extended" Format?

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Victory Bell

Victory Bell

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I don't know if this was exactly the right place to put this. Perhaps I should have put this under online play but I wanted this to at least be discussed. The whole idea of an extended format just seemed to deep to be put there in my mind.

I've always liked playing with all my cards. I've always liked playing down an Electrode ex and stacking 4 Scramble Energies on my Tangrowth Cl for 200+ damage turn two.

Now I wish I could go into a tournament with a combo like that but I realize that just isn't possible. It would be no fun. Everyone would play absurd decks like that and kill each other by turn six.

Modern is a format in Magic that uses a great amount of cards printed, but only going back so far. Not what we think of as Unlimited (or Legacy in Magic terms). Modern still bans cards that would be overpowered in combination with other cards that could normally be never played together. Recently Japan tried this type of event to some degree of success which makes me think it could work here. If not in real life, online. I don't have the link sadly.

Me and some friends were quite serious about reviving the wild unlimited format that currently exists back to a playable level. We feel there must be some kind of a ban list for this type of format to work. Japan successfully used a "Point Value" type system for an Extended format this past year. But that format was quite a bit smaller than what I have in mind. They only used Diamond and Pearl on. The way I see it there are 3 possible Extended formats. Ex on, Base set on, or DP on. All with some kinds of restrictions. The farther back we go the more "tweaks" have to be made to make these formats viable. DP on is probably the least fun. The card pool isn't that big. But only 4 cards really have to be but under the figurative "ban hammer". Uxie, Crobat, Sableye and BTS. In my opinion. Ex on is a bit farther back but few cards are truly broken in this era. For this reason I feel Ex on is the best place to cut Extended formats off at. Base is quite away back. Few cards are truly competitively viable here other than the broken (Power 9) type trainers. This is mostly due to power creep. Due to the amount of restrictions that would have to be made my opinion is that Base is the worst place to cut Extended off at. But my options don't really matter here.

We tested this format quite heavily referring to it as "Restricted". I'm not trying to stick my banlist to anyone, just use it as an example. It's clearly flawed, however it has been tested. I believe our ban/restricted list was:

Ban:
Sableye SF
Broken Time Space
Crobat G

I advocated for banning Seeker as well

Restricted: (to:X)
Professor Oak (1)
Junk Arm (1)
Item Finder (1)
GoW (1)
Catcher (Not out at that point but it would have been put at 1)
Bill (2) We weren't sure how to treat this one. Was it a supporter or a trainer?
Uxie LA (1)
Cyrus (2-3)

I'm sure I forgot some.

So why am I trying to revive a format that doesn't really exist. Two criticisms we received were:
"Banning is against the principle of Unlimited"-This is true. But this isn't Unlimited. This is Extended. Japan made it work and I think the English world can make it work too.

Also "Extended will never thrive without P!P support". True as well. There needs to be incentive for people to play. Until a company can step up and run 2nd party pay to play events for Modified like Magic has, this will never take off in real life. I think that real time Extended events are a ways out. Online events are a different story. For example. There is a website for the Pokemon Video games that has its own tier lists. They play by their own rules. I have played on a server for that site that has up to 1000 people on at one time, all of them playing for nothing under rules dictated by a 3rd party. The TCG is no Video Game, this is just an example of how 3rd party rules catch on and are used for a particular format.
In theory, a new online format would be possible if their was interest in making such a format.

The decks my friends and I were using were quite balanced. It was really easy to slow the format down by banning/restricting the clutch cards. Nothing we found was truly unbeatable.

Sadly and not surprisingly, our ideas were a local thing. It was popular in our area because we promoted it there. People built decks for it and we played during Modified tournaments. We never had the prize support to promote play with cards few people still had. This probably doesn't surprise many of the readers here and it doesn't surprise me either. But I got to thinking, "what if this could happen online?" On a simulator one has access to every card. Annoyingly enough, PTCG, arguably the best simulator out there, doesn't have a card filter past modified (Dreams=Crushed).

Regardless, I'd like to see what people think of this idea for a tournament online over Skype, Redshark, or Apprentice.

Yes, I realize Pokemon (P!P) will never support Un-Modified and I know why.

Yes, I realize that this will never work in real life and I know why that is too.

I have tested my list, I don't believe it's perfect, but it's somewhere to start. Talk of Banning, restricting or the lack of it can come later if there is any interest.

Another TCG site was talking about an Extended event back when Japan had theirs. I don't know if that ever happened though. Real time tournaments are not realistically possible right now and online Extended events have only been talked about and never really looked into. But I'd be willing to run one here if there is enough people who want it.

So does anyone have any interest for playing with a larger card pool? Have you played with a larger card pool before? Tested out what was done in Japan? How? What do you think balances the format better, the banning/restricting or the "points value restrictions" system Japan has successfully used in its Extended events? How could Pokemon USA make Extended part of their tournament structure without losing out? Or do you think Extended is just to flawed to work? If so, why?

I don't know if this will work but this type of a format is a passion of mine. Any interest, discussion or insight at all will make me a very happy Panda.
 
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I do wish they would do a extended format or say you can use certain cards from past formats. As for our current format, I would not mind talking about bans or restrictions.
 
If we get some kind of official tournaments in an Extended format, I'm pretty sure it will be the same as Japan has. The Palace Format is indeed interesting, the only problem I see is that never players may not get the old cards. Reprint sets of the most popular DP-on cards that haven't already been reprinted for league etc would surely help here.

btw I'm still hoping they try the Palace Format at this year's Professor Cup. ^^
 
The problem with the Palace Format is that, in it's current state, it doesn't restrict newer cards. Everyone in Japan just uses HGSS+ decks with a few older cards tossed in.
 
Extended or any variant would be sanctionable at best. I can't see a Premier event using it because one of the reasons for Modified is that new--usually younger--players don't usually have access to older cards. It is the newest 3 sets that are normally on the shelves. Yes, they have older cards because they obtained them when someone else had quit collecting, but they have little ways to better that collection outside of that way.

At my leagues, we play around with a variety of styles for league tournaments (unsanctioned). One of them looks like it matches your "Extended." Only 5 cards are banned (Neo Genesis Slowking, Gust of Wind, Super Energy Removal, Professor Oak, Legends Awakened Uxie) but every other card is fair game. The tournaments tend to lean heavily Modified because the players try to test their modified decks and because older cards have difficulty standing up against new cards. Non-Modified decks usually do not win. GG is the most common non-Modified deck. The rationale for using this is because the tournament needs to be open to as many players as possible. The younger players normally have decks with a mix of Modified and non-Modified cards, which would prevent them from playing if it was a Modified tournament and it would eat up time in a deck check. It is a paid entry tournament, so these younger players get new booster packs for doing well.

Due to time constraints, my other league runs 30-card 8-man single-elimination events. Again unsanctioned, we had done PL-UL, back when that was was the Prof Cup format but then we moved to BW-On. BW-On 30-card looks a lot like 60-card HS-On. I recently put into action a Team Rocket - Legendary Collection to go along side BW-On. It has not attracted many players because of how old the cards are, but it does have a few takers and the card pool gets larger as more become interested. Some players like the novelty of playing with cards they have never used before. Two players told me that they like it because it has made the game more fun for them. They don't have many NEX cards (making BW-On less attractive) but they also don't have many cards from TR-LC either. I think it is that Modified got too repetitive for them. Later on, I plan on doing a RS-HL/DX/PK as a 30-card. Players tell me they have a lot more of those cards. The 30-card events now play by BW rules because I don't want people being confused about what rules are current.

ShadowGuard said:
If we get some kind of official tournaments in an Extended format, I'm pretty sure it will be the same as Japan has. The Palace Format is indeed interesting, the only problem I see is that never players may not get the old cards. Reprint sets of the most popular DP-on cards that haven't already been reprinted for league etc would surely help here.
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Palace Format?

Players at my leagues have a lot of old cards dating back to DP. Prior to that, it gets spotty with quite a few latter ex sets, with supply continuing to dwindle as you go further back. Because we use unlimited format a league, these older cards still have a presence even though my league leans Modified because players always like the newest cards.

Old cards are obtainable on e-bay in lots.
 
The thing is, the Japanese DP-on format is intentionally built so that it plays like HGSS-on, as in, Big Basics are shoved down your throat. Just look at the points system. This is all off the top of my head but IIRC Machamp gets two points (same as Claydol? More than Crobat G? lol) and Mewtwo lv. X gets outright banned. The ruthless Power Creep combined with this recent crusade against anything that could stop Basics frorm dominating really means the format is essentially HGSS-on with an assortment of broken techs. For this reason, adding the EX sets to the cardpool would not help IMO as these sets emphasized evolution so much and can thus barely compete nowadays
So to add the EX block (which I might add is my favorite by far) we need a better banlist or the banning of some more more recent sets (or some combination of these)
 
I personally am against banning in Modified. I also don't want to take any focus away from Modified. Just add a new way to play, Online or in real life.

I do know why P!P probably won't support an Extended format in real life. As much as it saddens me, I know people don't have cards.

The Cup Format (That's the name!) seems like the best hope of any sort of Extended in the countries not named Japan. I STRONGLY hope it doesn't happen at the Professor cup this year, mainly, because I can't play until Nats 2013.

But getting that would be a step in the right direction! Maybe then it can open up a route for Extended side events or something.

I really feel that EX is better than DP. Most of the cards are unplayable in several copies. Mostly the EX sets would be there for the support Pokemon and Trainers.
 
I enjoyed Palace Cup. I enjoy playing no holds barred Unlimited. I'd play whatever format was added along side Modified just for the contrast.
 
How about doing a white list instead? Allowing certain key Pokemon, Trainers, Supporters and Stadiums back into the Modified format without going all out banning a lot of stuff.
 
For the past several years, I have loved this, and will continue to support it.
 
otarolgam said:
How about doing a white list instead? Allowing certain key Pokemon, Trainers, Supporters and Stadiums back into the Modified format without going all out banning a lot of stuff.
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How would that work exactly? A white list seems like another name for a much larger ban list.
 
Take the current modified format, then go back as far as you want and look over every single card that you think would have an interesting impact on the format and include it.

Like, people say that Grass types aren't dominating in this format. Why not bring back the Sceptile that can duplicate basic Grass Energies, just like our current Gardevoir.
 
Palace format has the right idea imo. If you modified the points on certain cards it would be a very fun and competitive.
 
TL;DR VERSION:
I think a point system, like a banned/restricted list asks too much of players to stay on top of, at least more than what Nintendo is willing to impose upon players.

I feel that any format that requires players to consult a list of SPECIFIC cards more than once a year will not fly. On the other hand, any format that only requires players to consult a list of a range of sets at MOST once a year is perhaps the maximum Nintendo is willing to accept. As such, any format concept that is able to achieve that standard--players only need to know range of sets once a year--is one that I'm sure Nintendo would be able to seriously consider. Otherwise, I'm sure "all bets are off".



.....

LONGER VERSION:
I think a point system isn't going to fly with Nintendo, simply because it, like a Banned/Restricted list, imposes upon players a level of "research" that Nintendo may not be willing to do. That is to say, if Nintendo thinks having a very dynamic list of cards which are updated with every set and thus required players to know about on a regular basis is something that Nintendo feels is "too much", then a point system--where each (or at least certain) cards are assigned a point value and you are thus allowed only X points worth of cards in your deck is no different than thus something that Nintendo is unwilling to impose upon players.

Consider why Modified is still used to this day: once a year, all Nintendo has to so is say "ok, you can only use cards from this single set and afterwards". This thus requires NO "research" from players, and it is also easy to follow considering that each Block has a unique card style and thus it is easy to determine which cards are OK to use by a simple visual inspection. And even though it still requires some "research", players only need to do it once and they're set for the rest of the year.

As such, I feel that any format that requires players to consult a list of SPECIFIC cards more than once a year will not fly. On the other hand, any format that only requires players to consult a list of a range of sets at MOST once a year is perhaps the maximum Nintendo is willing to accept. As such, any format concept that is able to achieve that standard is one that I'm sure Nintendo would be able to seriously consider.

An example of a format idea which I believe is one that Nintendo may seriously consider is "Singlemon" (aka "Singleton"). As its name implies, players are not allowed to use more than one copy of any card in their deck, apart from basic Energy cards. This format has a single rule--one copy of a card per deck--and that rule does not change no matter what new set, card or metagame surfaces. Likewise, it does not require players to consult ANY list of specific cards or range of sets, nor does it assign points to cards or have a banned/restricted list. As such, I feel that this format is less restrictive than Modified, or at most equally restrictive, because it still allows players to play with all the cards in their collection, even if they only have one of them.

The point of all this is.... any format idea that requires more effort than Modified to build a "proper" deck for is one that I'm sure will have little chance to stand to Nintendo's scrutiny. Now, true, perhaps the effort required to follow a point system format or use a banned/restricted list is really no effort at all. But, still, if Nintendo feels that it is still more effort than that which is required to play in Modified, it's thus more effort than Nintedo is willing to impose upon players.

At least, y'all have an idea of what to shoot for when developing a new idea or while trying to iron out the details of a current one. As such, that "Modern" format idea--which perhaps covers cards from the pasy four years rather than two--is one which I think would work, simply because it took doesn't require much from the players to stay on top of it.
 
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Singlemon/Singleton sounds interesting.

My alternate suggestion is something that has been bandied about for a while, but never seems to go anywhere (perhaps a bad sign).

Block Formats.

Formats would amount to the various blocks of sets. With some of the larger blocks it will be tricky, and some reprint sets might get left out (or alternatively included in extra formats), but in general, cards are balanced for the format they were released in. It would probably require having alternate rules, based on when the cards were actually released, which could be a problem, or else a bans.

Something my friends and I started on but never got anywhere with was an "Ownage" format. It gets a bit tricky since Dark Pokemon Evolve from Pokemon that don't have an owner, but other than that its simple: all Pokemon have to have an owner (like Bock's Ninetales) and all Trainers have to have have similar reference in name or effect. I freely admit this one is way too complicated to likely ever be official.
 
The whole point of a ban list is to make the format so 1 thing or concept isn't overpowered. Right now, Discard energy acceleration is huge. The list might be;

Junk Arm-1
Sage's Training-1
Professor Juniper-1

This way you slow the deck down but not kill it. We don't need a huge list of cards just something like this.

Banned

Vileplume
Maybe Junk Arm


1 Per Deck

Professor Juniper
Sage's Training
Junk Arm
Maybe N
Reshiram
Zekrom
PlusPower
Pokemon Catcher

2 Per Deck

Pokemon Reversal
Maybe Magnezone Prime
Emboar Ability
Recycle
N
Skyarrow Bridge
Maybe Crushing Hammer
Twins
Mewtwo EX

3 Per Deck

Magnezone Prime

Everything Else

Just something like this.
 
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Energy acceleration has been and always will be huge. If that ban list you propose was implemented, you would start complaining about other potentially good and popular cards like you always do.

An extended format would be awesome. The Gothitelle/Reuniclus/Azelf Lv.X deck that was reported to be doing well in Japan sounds like my kind of deck and I would love to be able to play it.
 
Why would I complain? I play the good and popular but that still does not mean they aren't overpowered. That ban list would be a step in the right direction.
 
vaporeon said:
Why would I complain? I play the good and popular but that still does not mean they aren't overpowered. That ban list would be a step in the right direction.
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The point of a banlist is to keep the game fun, and balanced enough to a degree where there are multiple viable decks and strategies. The point of a banlist is NOT to make all potential deck strategies equal. Severely gimping energy acceleration isn't going to make the game any more fun, nor will it make more decks and strategies viable. It won't even make all potential deck strategies equal, which isn't what a banlist if for anyway. All it would do is hurt energy acceleration.

There's nothing wrong with something like energy acceleration being powerful, even to the point of most decks using it. There IS a problem with that if only one deck and one strategy can use energy acceleration to the point where there is only one truly competitive deck. I don't feel like your banlist would make the game any better.

EDIT: Not to mention you absolutely gutted all our draw support. And a ban on Vileplume? Why? It's never, EVER been so dominant that it was a problem. You obviously just dislike certain strategies and want to ditch them. That's not how a banlist should work.
 
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