First Turn Supporters

[Sabett]

The problem with that is that we aren't playing Yu-Gi-Oh:nonono:

But all joking aside, I personally believe that not being able to attack on the first turn of the game would be the best option.

lol, wanted to make it clear I meant it for both of the players first turns.

You know how you fix donks?

PLC needs to quit printing cards that do 10000000 damage for 1 energy.

And SP Pokemon don't count because E-gain makes every 2 energy attack a 1 energy attack

LoL, well than that limits their design space, and they wouldn't be able to create cards they might want to later on. And in theory that's impossible to avoid, even when pokemon hits it's peak of speed later on, after it slows down, it'll speed up again, it's the nature of tcg development.

 

[Rainbowgym]

If both players cannot attack on their first turn but are allowed to use a supporter (or even a trainercard), you at least have the option to play
Roseanne
Collector
Bebe
Also using Call nrg for the player going second makes a difference. (in cases normally you could have been KO'd by the player going first, which happens)

and if trainers are allowed the options to become KO t2 are so much less.

I refuse to call it a "game of skill" as long as you loose games without having a turn or only the first turn.

 

[Sabett]

If both players cannot attack on their first turn but are allowed to use a supporter (or even a trainercard), you at least have the option to play
Roseanne
Collector
Bebe
Also using Call nrg for the player going second makes a difference. (in cases normally you could have been KO'd by the player going first, which happens)

and if trainers are allowed the options to become KO t2 are so much less.

I refuse to call it a "game of skill" as long as you loose games without having a turn or only the first turn.

Professor Brock approves this statement.

 

[skovtrold]

If both players cannot attack on their first turn but are allowed to use a supporter (or even a trainercard), you at least have the option to play
Roseanne
Collector
Bebe
Also using Call nrg for the player going second makes a difference. (in cases normally you could have been KO'd by the player going first, which happens)

and if trainers are allowed the options to become KO t2 are so much less.

I refuse to call it a "game of skill" as long as you loose games without having a turn or only the first turn.

If you refuse to call it skill, then maybe you should learn to draw and pass more skillfully. maybe ur doing something wrong.. Why didn't you draw ur card really dramatically and say: "I BELIEvE IN THE HEARTS OF THE CARDS !!!" and then go like: "Ur turn, you'd better not donk me!" really, drawing and passing is so skill dependant !! (enough of the troll)

But really, try to take a few league games, where you apply different starting rules. fx. the turn 1 bubble. Only by trying it out, you can find out whether it's balanced or not.

 

[xcfrisco]

Professor Brock approves this statement.

For the sake of discussion, can you list the pokemon cards that illicit the need for first turn supporters/a change in the system ie, the cards that make donking a "problem." (This subject is also completely up to debate, whether donks in of themselves are bad for the game, etc. I for one happen to LOVE donks :thumb

 

[Jaeger]

For the sake of discussion, can you list the pokemon cards that illicit the need for first turn supporters/a change in the system ie, the cards that make donking a "problem." (This subject is also completely up to debate, whether donks in of themselves are bad for the game, etc. I for one happen to LOVE donks :thumb

IMO Bad Players love Donks, Good Players hate them. How can making games go 1 turn be good?

 

[xcfrisco]

IMO Bad Players love Donks, Good Players hate them. How can making games go 1 turn be good?

I play to win :wink:

Whats the net difference between a win that took you 40 mins and an extra round of time to win and one where you win in 10 seconds? The win/loss on pokemon.com (and your invite to worlds/nats, etc) doesn't really care how you acheived said victory as long as its within the rules (and with stalling so prevalent in all circles of pokemon, within the rules is also highly up for debate)


I still would like a list of what pokemon the "GOOD players" consider to be so bad that donks need to be put in check cause they are too easy to achieve nowadays (again, completely debateable).


And didn't you play Jumpluff for regionals? That deck has donk WRITTEN ALL OVER IT, lol.


Finally, in all honesty, how is winning T1 significantly different than winning T2 or even T3 due to your opponents terribad start? Bad starts, T1/T2 donks seem like a pretty integral part of pokemon IMO.


**Rofl, TPCI keeps making cards like Donphan and Kingdra Prime, I think they like donks too :biggrin:**

 

[Jaeger]

I play to win :wink:

Whats the net difference between a win that took you 40 mins and an extra round of time to win and one where you win in 10 seconds? The win/loss on pokemon.com (and your invite to worlds/nats, etc) doesn't really care how you acheived said victory as long as its within the rules (and with stalling so prevalent in all circles of pokemon, within the rules is also highly up for debate)


I still would like a list of what pokemon the "GOOD players" consider to be so bad that donks need to be put in check cause they are too easy to achieve nowadays (again, completely debateable).


And didn't you play Jumpluff for regionals? That deck has donk WRITTEN ALL OVER IT, lol.


Finally, in all honesty, how is winning T1 significantly different than winning T2 or even T3 due to your opponents terribad start? Bad starts, T1/T2 donks seem like a pretty integral part of pokemon IMO.


**Rofl, TPCI keeps making cards like Donphan and Kingdra Prime, I think they like donks too :biggrin:**

The play to win comment is irrelevent, is that not the goal of why everybody plays? The good vrs bad player comment I see as follows. Your right Pokemon doesn't care if your win took 30 seconds or 40 mins it goes in as a win, the same is true as a loss though, they don't care if you lose in 30 seconds or 40 mins.

Let me put fourth a situation for you, your playing in a tournament, your rather happy because you know the person your playing against has never beaten you before in the last 5 times you guys have played, he also makes a lot of mistakes and overlooks complex plays. A judge walks over and offers you a deal, you get to flip a coin if heads you win if tails you lose. Would you take that deal? Do you think your opponent would take that deal?

 

[Meesie6x6]

if you get donked 1/2 times in an event, you didn't prepare well enough.

4 call, 16 basic pokemon, high rosy/collector count.

on a side note: i only got donked 1 time this whole year. luck/skill?

 

[Jaeger]

if you get donked 1/2 times in an event, you didn't prepare well enough.

4 call, 16 basic pokemon, high rosy/collector count.

on a side note: i only got donked 1 time this whole year. luck/skill?

Read the whole thing it was an example of why skilled players are less in favor of donks.

And to your second comment, both tbh. You can reduce the odds of being donked but your still going to get those 1 basic no call hands.

 

[xcfrisco]

Let me put fourth a situation for you, your playing in a tournament, your rather happy because you know the person your playing against has never beaten you before in the last 5 times you guys have played, he also makes a lot of mistakes and overlooks complex plays. A judge walks over and offers you a deal, you get to flip a coin if heads you win if tails you lose. Would you take that deal? Do you think your opponent would take that deal?

You bring forth a good point, about the odds of winning or losing a pokemon match based on donks. I assume you're arguing that depending on your style of deck, going first or second (which is determined by a coin flip or dice roll with 50/50 odds) can nigh-guarantee you a T1 loss with some decks out there.

Lets start looking at these #'s for T1 losses and such. I really need the help of all you math buffs and majors cause i'm a little rusty with probability and statistics.

I've seen the number floating around here that one has 46% chance of starting with a card in a 60 card deck if they play 4 copies of said card.

So lets keep it simple. You want to start with Ambipom G (and not a pokemon with free retreat and then switch to ambipom, or drawing into ambipom if you go first, etc) and you want to start with DCE to get the donk.

Assuming 46% chance of getting said set-up, lets take the 50% of you going first (so your opponent really cant do anything), times the 46% chance of you starting with ambipom G times the 46% chance of also getting a DCE.

The number you get is 10.6%. This roughly means that 1 out of every 9-10 games you will get the scenario I described. Forget that we're not even including the fact that your opponent can start with a basic that has more than 60 hp, or more than one pokemon even!

Are we really getting upset over 10%? (If that)

Btw who play four copies of ambipom G in there deck? lol

Sableye has similar numbers at the expense of doing less damage. (50 dmg with special dark and 40 with basic dark) but he guarantess that you go first. If just including special darks, we eliminated the need to win the coin flip and if you play a deck with 4 special darks and 4 sabeleyes (like sablelock), you have 20% of going first and dealing 50 dmg to the opponents basic.

What if our opponent has a "terribad" start (i dont know how you would figure the odds for that, lol) and we go second with an opportunity to donk which should be better complimented with our ability to use trainers and supporters?

Wow thats a mouthful, but lets keep it simple. If you're going first, you can also take that 46% of starting with any card in your deck that you play 4 copies of and play 4 Call Energy. Lets compare that 46% to our Sableyes 20%. Almost double the chances of completely preventing the donk in comparison to that "nigh-guaranteed" donk.

I think TPCI was onto something when they stopped the rotation at MD and left call energy into the format for next year :wink:



TLR

Its not as easy to get donks as people think, even with my crappy math as evidence.

PS

Play SP, those basics have a ton of HP and are pretty hard to donk. Plus, I heard SP LOVES call energy too :thumb:

Super Edit: and if we all really hate donks as much as we do, we should ask TPCI to stop making cards that deal 50+ dmg for one energy.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Good times. This thread brings back memories of the time when I asked, "Are donks good for the game?"

IDK. Donks certainly hurt skilled players much more than less skilled ones. I would expect most skilled players to be anti-donk. Similarly I would expect most "I play the game for fun" folks to be anit-donk since they seem to want to actually play the game, and a donk win isn't much of a game. I still feel that donks make our international rankings less meaningful.

But it's obvious that donks cards are being built into the game very deliberately by the design team in Japan. I think that the correct question to ask is "why are they doing this?"

 

[Jaeger]

You bring forth a good point, about the odds of winning or losing a pokemon match based on donks. I assume you're arguing that depending on your style of deck, going first or second (which is determined by a coin flip or dice roll with 50/50 odds) can nigh-guarantee you a T1 loss with some decks out there.

Lets start looking at these #'s for T1 losses and such. I really need the help of all you math buffs and majors cause i'm a little rusty with probability and statistics.

I've seen the number floating around here that one has 46% chance of starting with a card in a 60 card deck if they play 4 copies of said card.

So lets keep it simple. You want to start with Ambipom G (and not a pokemon with free retreat and then switch to ambipom, or drawing into ambipom if you go first, etc) and you want to start with DCE to get the donk.

Assuming 46% chance of getting said set-up, lets take the 50% of you going first (so your opponent really cant do anything), times the 46% chance of you starting with ambipom G times the 46% chance of also getting a DCE.

The number you get is 10.6%. This roughly means that 1 out of every 9-10 games you will get the scenario I described. Forget that we're not even including the fact that your opponent can start with a basic that has more than 60 hp, or more than one pokemon even!

Are we really getting upset over 10%? (If that)

Btw who play four copies of ambipom G in there deck? lol

Sableye has similar numbers at the expense of doing less damage. (50 dmg with special dark and 40 with basic dark) but he guarantess that you go first. If just including special darks, we eliminated the need to win the coin flip and if you play a deck with 4 special darks and 4 sabeleyes (like sablelock), you have 20% of going first and dealing 50 dmg to the opponents basic.

What if our opponent has a "terribad" start (i dont know how you would figure the odds for that, lol) and we go second with an opportunity to donk which should be better complimented with our ability to use trainers and supporters?

Wow thats a mouthful, but lets keep it simple. If you're going first, you can also take that 46% of starting with any card in your deck that you play 4 copies of and play 4 Call Energy. Lets compare that 46% to our Sableyes 20%. Almost double the chances of completely preventing the donk in comparison to that "nigh-guaranteed" donk.

I think TPCI was onto something when they stopped the rotation at MD and left call energy into the format for next year :wink:



TLR

Its not as easy to get donks as people think, even with my crappy math as evidence.

PS

Play SP, those basics have a ton of HP and are pretty hard to donk. Plus, I heard SP LOVES call energy too :thumb:

Super Edit: and if we all really hate donks as much as we do, we should ask TPCI to stop making cards that deal 50+ dmg for one energy.

Yes and no, the 50-50 thing isn't very likely, it was just example of why IMO bad players like or gain more benefit from first turn donks than good players, and of course your right playing high HP basic Pokemon, Call Energy, high basic count, etc. can all have an effect on donks

 

[gashmoigidy]

T1 Judge is bad.

<img src="http://pokegym.net/forums/images/smilies/nonono.gif">7

I'd rather be judged T1 than lose T1

 

[Sabett]

For the sake of discussion, can you list the pokemon cards that illicit the need for first turn supporters/a change in the system ie, the cards that make donking a "problem." (This subject is also completely up to debate, whether donks in of themselves are bad for the game, etc. I for one happen to LOVE donks :thumb

I've already said that the problem does not lie in the specific cards of the format, but the natural spots they would fill up as the natural process of development occurs, we couldn't have avoided cards like jumpluff, we couldn't have avoided cards like sabeleye, they are all a part of the turning wheel of development. The problem is internal, so the fix should be done internally, only then can the most development space be saved, as well as salvaging the mess those problems occur. First turn bubbles, only lets us create more powerful cards, if anything it adds space and give all of us a higher quality of cards.

 

[Jaeger]

IDK Impersonate is balanced IMO as is the auto going first all in all a good starter, there was no need for the donk attack they could have given 1 Dark for 20 and the card would have been balanced

 

[Yoshi-]

"I think TPCI was onto something when they stopped the rotation at MD and left call energy into the format for next year"
With PT on there woudlve been hardly any need for call (i love call, dont et me wrong, but id take a pt on format over it), since most of those ridiculus cards wouldve been rotated and good luck donking anyone without uxie...

 

[travis3290]

i still think this thread is pointless as i dont think they will change it. again i think you should adjust to the game and dont assume it will adjust for you.

 

[Yoshi-]

And how would you adjust the game so you dont get donked genius? They changed stuff before, if we dont voice that ere unsatisfied with something nothing will change, thats for sure...

 

[NoPoke]

I'd like the game to slow down a bit. I don't see how allowing supporters first turn would achieve that.