Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Fixing the issue with time

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Cheer up!

There is no problem with time. I'm English and I knew that swiss would be 30mins+3! Two choices:

(i) Play a deck that works within the time that was CLEARLY known beforehand
(ii) Play a slower deck and play it properly

This silly argument is defeated by one simple fact: A Ross.Dec won one of the regionals. Obviously played by someone who could win games in 30+3 with such a slow deck.

I really wanna use Hypno in my decks but catcher makes that impossible. Know what i do? I don't play Hypno. It's all part of playing the game properly.

I'm going to States on Saturday. It's 30+3. I may well play a slower deck. You won't find me crying on here because the rounds weren't long enough. If my opponents slow play i will call a judge. If they don't i'll win or lose. In time!

---------- Post added 11/16/2011 at 06:54 PM ----------

I'm not a bad player I am a very competitive player in North Carolina (which has 10-13 players all vying for top cut usually)...

...almost half of the games I played go to time and I then proceed to lose all of them.

I have re-arranged your post. These are 2 direct quotes from you. I have merely put one ahead of the other. I don't think i need to add any further comment.
 
I agree with your subsequent analysis. But I want to look at it from one level higher. Either via legal or illegal tactic, the purpose of stalling is to run out the clock as much as possible so that when the 40 minutes ends, you are ahead on prizes, and you win.

The introduction of +3 negated some that, because the opponent still had a couple of turns to even the score.

Oh and at the same time, they reduced the time to 30 minutes instead of 40.
Now, that was in a format where Broken Time Space was legal, you could Rare Candy the same turn, etc. The game was faster. I hear what you are saying.

In today's format, maybe more than 30 minutes are needed for regular game time. It's a smart and valid concern.
The problem is, the counterargument is what has been said, just play a faster deck. (Might not be what you want to hear, but it's a fact nonetheless. Some decks just might not have enough time to come from behind, given that Swiss and Best of 3 matches have different prescribed timeframes.)


But that is a problem, my choice to play mewlock was an excellent one. It had a favorable to even matchup against every deck I saw there and played against. Why should anyone's deck choice be limited based on time. Why not just ban Twins, Vileplume, and Reuniclus since they need so much time to work? Why isn't everyone playing ZPTS so that first to 6 catchers is the winner?
Because it makes the game boring and unskillful. Any deck using vileplume and reuniclus is slow yes, but in the end they have a tremendous matchup against those speed decks. Why should a rushing tactic be favored more than a setup one?
IMHO Rushing decks require no skill to play, are flippy, and boring. If we all played ZPTS it becomes not a game of who gets 6 prizes in 30 minutes, it becomes who flipped heads.d
Slow decks change that because they set up something powerful something that my opponent can't just say "herp herp bolt strike for KO". They reintroduce skill to the game, they make this game a challenge. But when you take them away for something as silly as a time limit then why bother playing a game based on the opening coin flip.

It's probably a safe bet that the 30+3 won't change this season. So the next season is 2012/2013, and likely BLW-on with a strong EX Pokemon flavor to it....e.g. take two prizes. Will 30+3 be sufficient then? Maybe some people who played in the older ex format can share their experience.

This however is not something I thought of. Maybe the format's pace will pick up in the future (it certainly is shaping up that way with all the big basicss and the new cards designed solely to help them). I never did expect the timelimit to change this year, frankly it takes to long to get something changed in this game, I was simply raising my concern on the issue.

Though I do believe now we should wait on the new rotation. Thanks for pointing that out.

At my Regionals, one of my opponents was rushing me from the very beginning, since I sat down at nearly the last minute and was shuffling a mulligan when the round began. Then prompted me several times during the game to make my move. I was ahead in prizes, and he was playing a Bearplume deck, so I guess he was making sure he had time to recover. But I took six prizes within 30 minutes anyway, so it didn't matter. Still, there pressure was there from him. I can imagine people would be up in arms too if the +3 was taken away.

What your opponent did there is something I was affraid I would have to do myself. I don't want to be that guy, I don't want to have to rush my opponent along. If I did I fear I would get called for "rushing" my opponent and earn myself a penalty.

As for the +3 I don't know how people would react, I can honestly see it both ways. I guess it just comes down to the players play styles. The speed deck players will want it back the old way, and the players who like to think out their plays and slower setup decks will want the +3 to stay. In the end though it is about what is most healthy for the Competitive TCG, because you can't please everyone.


Indeed TCGO does! But the computer controls it. As Ness said, many things should factor into the opponent's time, not yours, such as them reading a card you searched out, them shuffling your deck, etc. The TCGO computer controls this wonderfully, but it would be difficult to oversee in real life....particularly with 100+ simultaneous matches, as if the players need yet another thing to argue about to a Judge. Said clock works for chess because it's very clear when one person's turn is over and the other begins.

The players can monitor this themselves. Since you are in control of your own clock and any time wasted on your side is crucial just hit the button. For example:

Player May is searching her deck using the effect of Professor Elm's Training Method. She decides to pick Pidgeot from Call of Legends and puts it down on the mat.

Her opponent Drew has never seen nor knew there was a legal Pidgeot, and asks if he may read the card. May begins to shuffle her deck and hits the button so that the time is now subtracting from Drew's timer.

After Drew feels he has a satisfactory understanding of the card he gives it back to May cuts her deck and hits his button so the timer is on May again and so she resumes her turn.


Or at least something to that effect hopefully you get the idea. The problems as outlined above are easy enough to deal with, when you are waiting on your opponent simply hit the button and subtract time from them while you are waiting. As far in between turns goes you can set the clocks so that they have a delay in between starting the next players count down, its called Simple Delay (or at least that's what my app calls it).
 
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Chess clock style games (EXACTLY like the style they have on PTCGO) have come up before and I've always supported the idea.

Still do and would love for it to happen...
 
The +3 made the difference. If I recall correctly before the change (I just started playing that season), when time ended you looked at prizes and determined a winner. Thus people stalled when they had the advantage. The +3 at least allows the other player 2 turns to even the score.

So those of you advocating for more time than 30 minutes...is your proposal going back to simple 40 minute rounds, or 40+3? (There are old and new problems with both.)

How about a compromised middle. 35+3. this would give a couple extra minutes per round, and would only last a total of 40 mins. Seems like this would be reasonable.
 
After Drew feels he has a satisfactory understanding of the card he gives it back to May cuts her deck and hits his button so the timer is on May again and so she resumes her turn.

Logically that would work.
Practically speaking though, as soon as Drew accidentally forgets to click his button again, the game state gets compromised.

Let's say 30 seconds transpire before they realize it. That is a 60 second differential between the two players now represented on the clock. Are they supposed to adjust their clocks to undo that mistake? Call a Judge over? How will they know exactly how much time transpired and prove it, or even agree upon it?

Take the number of rounds in a day, multiplied by the number of matches per round, and you have introduced that many new potential problems for the judges and the tournament organizer. Players have enough trouble remembering if they played a Supporter or attached an energy, let alone remember to keep pressing a button on a clock dozens of times during a single game.
 
Chess clock style games (EXACTLY like the style they have on PTCGO) have come up before and I've always supported the idea.

Still do and would love for it to happen...

I know that time is an important factor and a lot of people want a resolution to it, but a clock just doesn't cut it. The amount of time needed for a turn varies from deck to deck. For instance beyond the first turn or so a Durant deck requires very little maintenance, it plays the occasional supporter, and Revives and stuff, and uses very little time to play out a turn. Conversely decks like ZPSt take lengthy turns, especially at the beginning of the game. A perfect example of this would be Uxiedonk last format, a deck that rattled of enough moves to nearly deplete it's deck in one turn.

I wouldn't think it would be fair if the player playing Uxiedonk had to pass their turn just because they have so many actions they have to take and then decks like Durant would have a surplus of time.

Time is an important part of the game, but I think trying to regulate matches to such an extent would not only be unfair in certain cases, but would suck out the joy of the game for many people, because many people rush themselves when they know they're on a timer.
 
who is to pay for these clocks? who buys batteries, does upkeep, stores them between events, etc? if they are for events only, how are new/junior players to learn how to use them before going to said events if they're not available to use at league?

...oh, players need to buy their own? we TOs/LLs can't even get all players to bring their own randomizers/damage counters to events, what happens when neither player in a match has a clock?

'mom
 
Bro, I won Regionals with Ross.dec. Lol.

Congrats dude!!

I was referring to the other player who picked a slow deck, kept losing on time and yet insisted he made a fantastic deck choice. Clearly not! :p

You have successfully proven that the 30+3 is NOT a bar to success for slower decks. Which begs the question: Why would you complain? You won Regionals with a slow deck, thus proving that we DON'T need longer rounds!

Am i the only one getting bored with constant threads complaing about every facet of the game?
 
Thanks, haha. I wasn't sure who you were talking to.

In general, I hate complaining threads as well, but I actually think this is a legitimate issue. It encourages players to play the fastest, easiest to play decks. Although, I suppose everybody who makes one of these threads thinks that their issue is very important.

As I said in the original post, I ended up having to play faster than usual (especially in Swiss; I slowed down more for cut), and this resulted in me making more misplays than normal. My big two misplays were just airhead things against opponents who weren't even slowplaying; announcing the wrong attack and forgetting to swap rainbow damage. But, I made far more little ones than I think I would have if I was on my own clock, or in an untimed format. Imo, there's no reason not to implement a system that would help players play at their best, and prevent what I would consider unfair wins. I also know at least two people who did get slowplayed out of wins, so it is more of a legitimate issue than it sounds. Just because I was lucky enough to avoid this kind of loss doesn't mean it's not an issue.

It's impossible to predict game three, but I probably would have lost on time in top two if he had run an extra energy to win game two with, even though my deck basically had an auto-win against his in an untimed format.

The one reason not to do this, as PokeMom and others have pointed out, is that there's no obvious way to pay for the clocks.
 
Every system is exploitable, play in a timely manner, expect the same out of your opponent and have the balls to call a judge if you need to. I played 12 rounds at Regionals before losing in the Top 4 and didn't have a single game go to time.
 
The solution is real simple. Swiss should simply be 40+3 (or 35+3), and Best 2/3 should be 90+3. Of course, you run into issues for some tournaments, especially large City Championships and State Championships, which are one day events.
 
Every system is exploitable, play in a timely manner, expect the same out of your opponent and have the balls to call a judge if you need to. I played 12 rounds at Regionals before losing in the Top 4 and didn't have a single game go to time.
What deck were you using? This means nothing if you're using Zekrom, Stage 1's, etc.

@Ness- That would work, too, but like you said, it starts to take too long. Longer rounds would be nice, but even then there could be slowplay, just not nearly as much. It's sort of a "budget" solution, whereas the way they do it on TCGO would actually come as close as possible to fixing the problem.
 
What deck were you using? This means nothing if you're using Zekrom, Stage 1's, etc.

@Ness- That would work, too, but like you said, it starts to take too long. Longer rounds would be nice, but even then there could be slowplay, just not nearly as much. It's sort of a "budget" solution, whereas the way they do it on TCGO would actually come as close as possible to fixing the problem.
Zekrom, but I only donked 2 out of a total 16 games, I mean it is what it is but if you run the time too long you shift the advantage in a totally different direction. As I said, every system is exploitable and at the end of the day this is a game and people can't bear the extra hour or two this could add to some events. I'd rather have a few whiners and people get home in a timely fashion than extended rounds, 30+3 is fine and people will always have a complaint from my experience.
 
Of course time wasn't an issue for you if you're running Zekrom. Half the point of this thread is that a fast and simple deck like Zekrom abuses 30+3 and gets nothing but benefits from it.

On a side note, most of the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not 30+3 is good enough, not whether or not having individual clocks would be a better system. I think pretty much everybody can agree that individual clocks is a better, more fair system; there's just not a cheap and simple way to do it at the moment.
 
Cheer up!

There is no problem with time. I'm English and I knew that swiss would be 30mins+3! Two choices:

(i) Play a deck that works within the time that was CLEARLY known beforehand
(ii) Play a slower deck and play it properly

This silly argument is defeated by one simple fact: A Ross.Dec won one of the regionals. Obviously played by someone who could win games in 30+3 with such a slow deck.

I really wanna use Hypno in my decks but catcher makes that impossible. Know what i do? I don't play Hypno. It's all part of playing the game properly.

I'm going to States on Saturday. It's 30+3. I may well play a slower deck. You won't find me crying on here because the rounds weren't long enough. If my opponents slow play i will call a judge. If they don't i'll win or lose. In time!

---------- Post added 11/16/2011 at 06:54 PM ----------



I have re-arranged your post. These are 2 direct quotes from you. I have merely put one ahead of the other. I don't think i need to add any further comment.

This is a great and a bad post for reasons that has more to do with principles than Pokémon. The core question here is; when is it time to complain? You could go the easy way like you do and say that you just have to adjust (and I assume you mean that is) regardless of what the rules are. We're not the ones in charge, so who are we to do anything but follow the rules they set for us? However, there's a limit to how much crap one can take, and I'd like to promote myself as the king of not taking crap to be your contrast. The players are the ones who keep the game alive, so if a majority of the players think that something is fundamentally wrong with the game there should be a change to keep the game alive. For example, if we had gotten MD-on with BW rules at my nats I would simply refuse to attend, and encourage others to do the same. If those in charge decide to ruin things so badly that it isn't fun anymore we should by all means stand up to them and demand a change. If this is one of those cases should be the next question.

I think that in a case like this, where a simple change can be made to add a lot more variety (which is always good) to the format it should at the very least be taken up for consideration. I don't see the clock thing working but adding 5/10 minutes shouldn't be too big of a deal in most tournaments.

Bro, I won Regionals with Ross.dec. Lol.

With a bit of context this might be the single most epic post I have ever seen on the 'gym. Kudos.
 
Of course time wasn't an issue for you if you're running Zekrom. Half the point of this thread is that a fast and simple deck like Zekrom abuses 30+3 and gets nothing but benefits from it.

On a side note, most of the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not 30+3 is good enough, not whether or not having individual clocks would be a better system. I think pretty much everybody can agree that individual clocks is a better, more fair system; there's just not a cheap and simple way to do it at the moment.
The format could have been without a time limit on rounds and Zekrom would have been just as represented IMO, but let's just agree to disagree. I mean the thing is, the Top 4 results of the Regional I played in inflated the overall Zekrom representation #'s in Top 4's by over 50%, it wasn't *that* broken or unfair. I'm just seeing a lot of QQ as usual.

EDIT:

Total Top 4 appearances, via thetopcut.net:

Typhlosion/Reshiram: 7
Yanmega/Magnezone: 7
TZPS: 5 (3 of the 5 appeared in STL MO Regionals Top 4)
Donphan/Yanmega: 2
Vileplume/Reuniclus/Donphan/Zekrom/Suicune & Entei LEGEND: 2
Donphan/Zoroark/Tornadus/Zekrom: 1
Donphan/Zoroark/Zekrom: 1
Donphan/Machamp/Vileplume: 1
Emboar/Magnezone: 1
Typhlosion/Magnezone: 1

...so yeah that Zekrom/Stage 1 argument doesn't carry too much steam IMO.
 
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^I never said that the timed format broke Zekrom as a deck. I don't think Zekrom is one of best couple decks at the moment, although it's still Tier 1. I simply said that one group of decks was being unfairly favored over another group, and that the current time-keeping system discourages people from playing the slower, more strategy-based decks.

It's basic logic that if you put a time limit on a game, the faster deck becomes more likely to win. The tournament results you listed put into question just how much of a difference it actually makes. As somebody who played a slower deck firsthand, I do think it makes a difference. But then at this point, we're arguing whether or not the current system is good enough, not whether or not it's better than separate times.

So yeah, agree to disagree.
 
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