Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

HGSS-on Top decks

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chriscobi634 said:
Has anyone really tested the match up of Emboar/Reshiram vs. Typhlosion/Reshiram?

yes, after I saw your post I made the list (don't bash it until you try it) and I can honestly tell you it is much worse then I origionally thought

I still think Typhlosion has the advantage, on paper it looks faster. Once you've hit the Reshiram for 120 you could really come in a with a Cyndaquil and KO with 10 damage. With Emboar you have to worry about too many things IMO.

They are both stage 2 pokemon. How can one "look" faster then the other...neither of them have a basic or stage one that sets itself up. They are litterally the same. You talk about koing with a cyndaquil? You can easily do 10 with a tepig aswell. What other things are you worrying about with Emboar?

1: Getting energy into your hand so you can start off accelerating from the beginning.

As you can with a Emboar list, they both run ninetails

2: Once you've discarded after one Blue Flare, you have to make sure you have the two energy in play to keep dropping on Reshiram, AND most likely have a third energy to keep your engine going with Ninetales.

After you discard after one Blue Flare, you'll have to make sure you spend both energy attachements (typhlosion + attachemnt) on your active reshiram. Without being able to attach energy onto your benched reshiram, you won't be able to blue flare once your active gets knocked out. Regardless, you'll still need to have 2 energy in your hand (1 to attach / 1 to roast reveal) Enless of coarse you have 2 typhlosion prime in play, in which case you're taking up extra bench deck space.

3a: Once most of your energy are gone, you have to worry about getting them back from the discard pile. Sure there are many ways to get them, but those ways come at a very high price.

If you're running typhlsion without any other sorce of energy retreval, you'll run out of energy aswell. There is no denying that.

3b: Deck space. Probably the biggest one of them all. You need extra deck space to run those recycle cards, which I don't valid an argument "Oh it's just 1 or 2 Fisherman". EVERY CARD IN YOUR DECK COUNTS in a format that we are about to go into. Some format you can get away with playing tech cards as those formats are limited so you really don't have to tech against much. So the tech you put in will normally help against a couple of the other top decks and really won't be needed against the rest of the metagame as you already beat it. Example: Dragonite FB in Luxchomp. But when your against a much wider metagame those consistency cards or tech cards could win or lose you a lot of match-ups. In Emboar case vs. Typhlosion, it will lose you those games as Typhlosion will have the room for tech/consistency.

The energy retrival system IS the consistency. Ninetails + Engieneers + Energy retrival is how the deck works. You're right, this format will come down to lists, techs and skill. If anything I feel typhosion will lose the "mirror" match due to the lack of multiple energy drops / the reshiram exchange.


3c: Besides getting them from discard pile, if you send them to your deck and not directly into your hand you now have to worry about how your going to get them into your hand.

You don't but them into your deck. Fishermans and Energy Retrevial puts them into your hand, the only card that sends them into your deck that should see play is Flowershop girl.
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Responces in red.
 
Against HGSS-on variants, maxing Junk Arm really hammers LostGar's chances of winning.
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Yeah but I would imagine it would be tough to "max" on junk arms in a deck that already has a large stage 2 and stage 1 line with techs and without a decent starter in this format. If you are able to make that list, you are going to be lacking in other matchups.

Plus, there's the seeker factor. In this format, especially with your junk arm idea, it is going to be harder and harder to find extra basics to lay on your bench late game. It'd be tough to avoid being forced to seeker a stage 1 or 2 to your hand, allowing lostgar the potential for the quick catch-up.

So if you're lostgar opponent maxes on seekers, they should have the upper hand even if you max on junk arms.
 
metagross said:
...[H]owever, Energy Search thins out your deck, so that you dont draw that energy when you need something else. That alone should be considered important enough to warrant a try.
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That's just it though... why not play another "something else" so you draw it "when you need something else?" Play it instead of energy search, or something that can get you a different selection of cards. In this case, its only fire... even Dual Ball gives you greater access to your deck.

I mean, I've seen Energy Search have its uses even though its hardly ever played. I don't mean to say its always a bad play. Rob Down's Gigas list played 4 IIRC, but with 4 you have a greater chance of having it when you need it PLUS it plays 3 different energy types (whereas that Reshiram list plays exclusively fires).

I just don't see the reasoning of playing one single copy for the sake of Junk Arm when you only play one kind of energy in the entire deck.
 
LoTad said:
Yeah but I would imagine it would be tough to "max" on junk arms in a deck that already has a large stage 2 and stage 1 line with techs and without a decent starter in this format. If you are able to make that list, you are going to be lacking in other matchups.
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Posted my list a couple pages back. I've actually had no trouble against LostGar so far, so I must be doing something right.
 
Originally Posted by chriscobi634 View Post
Has anyone really tested the match up of Emboar/Reshiram vs. Typhlosion/Reshiram?

yes, after I saw your post I made the list (don't bash it until you try it) and I can honestly tell you it is much worse then I origionally thought

this makes me lol as i really don't see how you guys can honestly say that Emboar is better than Typhlosion.

I still think Typhlosion has the advantage, on paper it looks faster. Once you've hit the Reshiram for 120 you could really come in a with a Cyndaquil and KO with 10 damage. With Emboar you have to worry about too many things IMO.


They are both stage 2 pokemon. How can one "look" faster then the other...neither of them have a basic or stage one that sets itself up. They are litterally the same. You talk about koing with a cyndaquil? You can easily do 10 with a tepig aswell. What other things are you worrying about with Emboar?

The reason it looks faster is you have more room in your list for all kinds of set up cards. Also, you don't have to have Xx amount of energies in your hand to be able to start the whole combo. 1 or 2 are enough, with Emboar you need AT LEAST 3.

The thing is that you don't need to do 10 with Tepig as Reshiram on Typhlosion's side already have the top from Afterburner. That fact that you argue that makes you look dumb as you simply look at the small picture and only from your side.

1: Getting energy into your hand so you can start off accelerating from the beginning.

As you can with a Emboar list, they both run ninetails

But the thing with Typhlosion is that you don't need to have 3+ energies in hand. You just need two really. 1 to attach to your Reshiram and 1 to discard with Ninetales, that same one can be used by Typhlosion.

2: Once you've discarded after one Blue Flare, you have to make sure you have the two energy in play to keep dropping on Reshiram, AND most likely have a third energy to keep your engine going with Ninetales.

After you discard after one Blue Flare, you'll have to make sure you spend both energy attachements (typhlosion + attachemnt) on your active reshiram. Without being able to attach energy onto your benched reshiram, you won't be able to blue flare once your active gets knocked out. Regardless, you'll still need to have 2 energy in your hand (1 to attach / 1 to roast reveal) Enless of coarse you have 2 typhlosion prime in play, in which case you're taking up extra bench deck space.

It's easier to set up 2 Typhlosions when you have the deck list room for it. Plus this just shows how you don't know how to argue your points really well and don't know what your talking about because most times you won't need to keep doing 120 with Reshiram. You just can't expect it to sit there looking pretty and OHKO after OHKO. It's going to take some damage in which you rely on using Outrage. What's so wrong about having two Typhlosion in play? It doesn't disrupt my bench space at all.

3a: Once most of your energy are gone, you have to worry about getting them back from the discard pile. Sure there are many ways to get them, but those ways come at a very high price.

If you're running typhlsion without any other sorce of energy retreval, you'll run out of energy aswell. There is no denying that.

No you won't as you keep recycling those energies with it. Once you have both Typhlosions out which I can usually do by T5 or T6 on solitaire games (don't see it being any difference vs. a deck as they won't be taking damage) you keep reusing those energies you discarded. Again another point proven wrong.

3b: Deck space. Probably the biggest one of them all. You need extra deck space to run those recycle cards, which I don't valid an argument "Oh it's just 1 or 2 Fisherman". EVERY CARD IN YOUR DECK COUNTS in a format that we are about to go into. Some format you can get away with playing tech cards as those formats are limited so you really don't have to tech against much. So the tech you put in will normally help against a couple of the other top decks and really won't be needed against the rest of the metagame as you already beat it. Example: Dragonite FB in Luxchomp. But when your against a much wider metagame those consistency cards or tech cards could win or lose you a lot of match-ups. In Emboar case vs. Typhlosion, it will lose you those games as Typhlosion will have the room for tech/consistency.

The energy retrival system IS the consistency. Ninetails + Engieneers + Energy retrival is how the deck works. You're right, this format will come down to lists, techs and skill. If anything I feel typhosion will lose the "mirror" match due to the lack of multiple energy drops / the reshiram exchange.


Already went over this. Both Typhlosion and Emboar can be used as attackers as well, but Typhlosion requires less energy AND doesn't have to discard all of them when using it's attack.

3c: Besides getting them from discard pile, if you send them to your deck and not directly into your hand you now have to worry about how your going to get them into your hand.

You don't but them into your deck. Fishermans and Energy Retrevial puts them into your hand, the only card that sends them into your deck that should see play is Flowershop girl.

I don't need to run any of those for Typhlosion, so that's how deck list spaces available since i don't need to run those cards? 4-6? On top of that one less thing I have to worry about.
 
Dont Knock shuckle till you try it.. And also I'm pretty sure chriscobi is Trolling with the whole typholosion thing. They both set up equally fast, but typhlosion will make u autoloss te mirror and zekrom. Also emboar is waaaaay more flexible than typhlosion is. Attaching as many energies as you want to ANYTHING is better than 1 energyfrom discard. With the new entry retrevial and junk arms it's super easy to get this each turn. And for whoever bashed shaymin it's a nice to tech to have just as a guarantee. You can load all the energy on shuckle then use unown return, seeker, ssu, then when ur done you know you can shaymin the energy away.
 
I'm honestly not trolling with Typhlosion being better than Emboar.

All the answer you guys have for why it's better really don't persuade me to thinking that way. I honestly don't see how they set up equally fast and EQUALLY CONSISTENT when Typhlosion allows for more room for consistency cards in your deck list. Which leads me to the next point, you guys assume you will have all these Fisherman and energy retrieval when you need them.

In my Typhlosion list I run 3 Judge since I have Ninetales to get me out of a small hand. Which I honestly don't see you guys preparing for it when you have tested your "mirror" matches. Sure you have Ninetales as well, but it doesn't guarantee you'll get what you need. With Typhlosion it doesn't matter whether you get the Fire energy or energy retrieval or Fisherman, as you already have the energy in the discard pile, unless obviously you play that Judge T1 or T2. For list that run Shuckle/Unown Return it'll be harder to get out of a Judge effectively.
 
chriscobi634 said:
I'm honestly not trolling with Typhlosion being better than Emboar.

All the answer you guys have for why it's better really don't persuade me to thinking that way. I honestly don't see how they set up equally fast and EQUALLY CONSISTENT when Typhlosion allows for more room for consistency cards in your deck list. Which leads me to the next point, you guys assume you will have all these Fisherman and energy retrieval when you need them.

In my Typhlosion list I run 3 Judge since I have Ninetales to get me out of a small hand. Which I honestly don't see you guys preparing for it when you have tested your "mirror" matches. Sure you have Ninetales as well, but it doesn't guarantee you'll get what you need. With Typhlosion it doesn't matter whether you get the Fire energy or energy retrieval or Fisherman, as you already have the energy in the discard pile, unless obviously you play that Judge T1 or T2. For list that run Shuckle/Unown Return it'll be harder to get out of a Judge effectively.
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Ha! You say that I asume I'll have ways to get my energy back, just like you asume you'll draw into a fire energy when you judge yourself. Without those cards to return the energy to your hand, you'll have less outs to hit an energy on a judge then an emboar list would and thats without considering the 5th card we get to draw on our turn.

And still you act as if the self damaging aspect of typhlosion isn't even an issue. Self denial perhaps?

I'm going to go eat dinner / watch the election / hockey, but sometime tonight or tomorrow I'll post a "play by play" on how the match up works out.
 
chriscobi634 said:
I'm honestly not trolling with Typhlosion being better than Emboar.

All the answer you guys have for why it's better really don't persuade me to thinking that way. I honestly don't see how they set up equally fast and EQUALLY CONSISTENT when Typhlosion allows for more room for consistency cards in your deck list. Which leads me to the next point, you guys assume you will have all these Fisherman and energy retrieval when you need them.

In my Typhlosion list I run 3 Judge since I have Ninetales to get me out of a small hand. Which I honestly don't see you guys preparing for it when you have tested your "mirror" matches. Sure you have Ninetales as well, but it doesn't guarantee you'll get what you need. With Typhlosion it doesn't matter whether you get the Fire energy or energy retrieval or Fisherman, as you already have the energy in the discard pile, unless obviously you play that Judge T1 or T2. For list that run Shuckle/Unown Return it'll be harder to get out of a Judge effectively.
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Me and my friend each have these decks built. Im using emboar/reshiram and he is using reshiram/typhlosion. So far, I have beaten him every game. Also, he is running judge just like you. The typhlosion player basically needs to get up two typhlosion every game for the same effect as emboar. Against non mirror/zekrom, the results are about the same for both of our decks. The two get set up in the same time, so how can typhlosion be faster. We both have about the same amount of techs, which is a more than a few in both decks. So how is there an advantage to play typhlosion if you can do just as good against non mirror w/ emboar but you win any mirror that uses typhlosion. Also, Im using energy retrieval/fisherman to recover my energies. You said you need 3 energies in my hand to attack, but normally I have one when Im set up. By then I have one of those trainers to search them out of my discard and then attach them and attack.
 
chriscobi634 said:
I'm honestly not trolling with Typhlosion being better than Emboar.

All the answer you guys have for why it's better really don't persuade me to thinking that way. I honestly don't see how they set up equally fast and EQUALLY CONSISTENT when Typhlosion allows for more room for consistency cards in your deck list. Which leads me to the next point, you guys assume you will have all these Fisherman and energy retrieval when you need them.

In my Typhlosion list I run 3 Judge since I have Ninetales to get me out of a small hand. Which I honestly don't see you guys preparing for it when you have tested your "mirror" matches. Sure you have Ninetales as well, but it doesn't guarantee you'll get what you need. With Typhlosion it doesn't matter whether you get the Fire energy or energy retrieval or Fisherman, as you already have the energy in the discard pile, unless obviously you play that Judge T1 or T2. For list that run Shuckle/Unown Return it'll be harder to get out of a Judge effectively.
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How can you consider a deck tht needs two stage twos in play versus a deck that only needs one stage two in play more consistent? You realize that emboar can use ninetails too right? And apparently your ninetails will always get you the exact cards you need when emboar's ninetails will get it nothing.
 
All in favor of Emboar (inferno fandandango) say I!!........... Hey chriscobi634 , it looks like the I's have it. Motion granted!! :lol:
 
chriscobi634 said:
I'm honestly not trolling with Typhlosion being better than Emboar.

All the answer you guys have for why it's better really don't persuade me to thinking that way. I honestly don't see how they set up equally fast and EQUALLY CONSISTENT when Typhlosion allows for more room for consistency cards in your deck list. Which leads me to the next point, you guys assume you will have all these Fisherman and energy retrieval when you need them.

In my Typhlosion list I run 3 Judge since I have Ninetales to get me out of a small hand. Which I honestly don't see you guys preparing for it when you have tested your "mirror" matches. Sure you have Ninetales as well, but it doesn't guarantee you'll get what you need. With Typhlosion it doesn't matter whether you get the Fire energy or energy retrieval or Fisherman, as you already have the energy in the discard pile, unless obviously you play that Judge T1 or T2. For list that run Shuckle/Unown Return it'll be harder to get out of a Judge effectively.
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You obviously have ZERO idea what your talking about.
So basically, off a judge your going to ALWAYS get an energy? And also, to even use Typholosion effectively, you have to get two out... Cause THAT'S consistent.

But hey! Go ahead and use your Typhlosion.... Can't wait to see you get run over by the obviously more superior version of the deck (Emboar).
But what ever floats your boat...
Trolls these days....

To be honest "Chriscobi" I don't even see why you are arguing a stupid point against sdrawkcab... Every post he has had valid points. You have had NO valid points.

Kthanks
 
astewart said:
You obviously have ZERO idea what your talking about.
So basically, off a judge your going to ALWAYS get an energy? And also, to even use Typholosion effectively, you have to get two out... Cause THAT'S consistent.

But hey! Go ahead and use your Typhlosion.... Can't wait to see you get run over by the obviously more superior version of the deck (Emboar).
But what ever floats your boat...
Trolls these days....

To be honest "Chriscobi" I don't even see why you are arguing a stupid point against sdrawkcab... Every post he has had valid points. You have had NO valid points.

Kthanks
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You see it that way as your jumping on the Emboar bandwagon. I LOL at why you would put parentheses on my name. Your the idiot for saying that I have no valid points as you obvious don't want to admit what I have posted is true. AND YET AGAIN, you make a stupid assumption since I clearly stated that even if you don't get a fire energy from Judge it's ok as you already have your energy in the discard.

I love how you guys claim that it's hard to get 2 Typhlosions up. It's no by T5 or T6, which is when you really need it. I never said you need it right from the get go. Sometimes you don't need both Typhlosions out.
 
Setting up 2 stage 2s and a stage 1 and getting all the fires in play is harder than you think. To even start using reshi ur gonna have to set up at least a typhlosion and a ninetails. Also that one damage counter is going to wreck you, even if you get set up faster agains mirror in some crazy way, they still ohko you. And you need a pluspower. And if your running 3 judge, those are the spaces I would use for energy retrieval. ALSO your deck will lose to any good water deck player because you can't use effective counters such as tangrowth col or another grass type.

Also on the ninetails/shuckle debate, ninetails let's you max at 3 cards per ninetails. I can usually draw 5-6 off a bad turn with shuckle. On a good turn I get upwards of 15. It's a basic, and it speeds up your Set up letting you draw an extra card per turn before you can get out emboar.
 
elekid_957 said:
Setting up 2 stage 2s and a stage 1 and getting all the fires in play is harder than you think. To even start using reshi ur gonna have to set up at least a typhlosion and a ninetails. Also that one damage counter is going to wreck you, even if you get set up faster agains mirror in some crazy way, they still ohko you. And you need a pluspower. And if your running 3 judge, those are the spaces I would use for energy retrieval. ALSO your deck will lose to any good water deck player because you can't use effective counters such as tangrowth col or another grass type.

Also on the ninetails/shuckle debate, ninetails let's you max at 3 cards per ninetails. I can usually draw 5-6 off a bad turn with shuckle. On a good turn I get upwards of 15. It's a basic, and it speeds up your Set up letting you draw an extra card per turn before you can get out emboar.
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15 cards a turn? I LOl at this too. So I assume your running anywhere from 15-20 energies in the deck? If your running 15 then that means you pretty much get every single energy from you deck. I'd like to see that in action.

---------- Post added 05/02/2011 at 10:43 PM ----------
gallade said:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118927
'nuff said
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wow you guys are pathetic. Completely different format. I keep LOL at the attempts you guys are making. Really it makes me laugh at the how hard you guys are at this.
 
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