honest mistake or unfair advantage or cheating?
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Bilbo Baggins
New Member
Think the first time, it should be a warning if anything. The second time is when I would ask the person to just have a judge to shuffle the deck instead. (and may penalize depending on situation). After that is a new level.. (if they were asked during the second time..)
Usually the ones who are so set on shuffling the opponents deck are ones that are already confident enough to handle that situation and shuffle correctly without issues.
If cards continue to fall, I would definitely feel as though he's trying to look through the deck to see what's going on.
We all have sloppy moments. But it's easy to just tell the opponent to cool his jets and I he's so worried that I'm stackin my deck or etc, we can have a neutral shuffle.
If cards continue to fall, I would definitely feel as though he's trying to look through the deck to see what's going on.
We all have sloppy moments. But it's easy to just tell the opponent to cool his jets and I he's so worried that I'm stackin my deck or etc, we can have a neutral shuffle.
There is a clear requirement in the rules/guidelines:
The player shall randomize sufficiently his deck.
The player not only did not randomize sufficiently the deck, but he did not randomize the deck at all!
It is top 4, people can win trips, money and qualifications. I believe that this should have been reported, no matter why it has been performed.
I am wondering where the judges were, and why nobody stopped this person.
The player shall randomize sufficiently his deck.
The player not only did not randomize sufficiently the deck, but he did not randomize the deck at all!
It is top 4, people can win trips, money and qualifications. I believe that this should have been reported, no matter why it has been performed.
I am wondering where the judges were, and why nobody stopped this person.
Articjedi
Active Member
I'm getting whining about opponents ruining their expensive cards and/or sleeves on my end.
My answer to this is, if you don't want me "ruining" your cards/sleeves, then shuffle properly so I don't have to!
OnTheBubble
New Member
We posted a better quality version of one of the games in question and we actually left in the judges rulings on the matter around the 50:00 min mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNbNuizYUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNbNuizYUM
This page depicts what is going on with the double five pile shuffle after sorting the deck into pokemon, trainers and energy. Scroll down to the bottom where the pile shuffle is graphically depicted. This is stacking NOT randomization.
http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/
http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/
homeofmew
Active Member
this is the same link I found, however if read the instructions, it takes a lot of effort to pull off and is very noticeable. Since you have your deck in x order then you put in in another order followed by a weak shuffle.
@ Arctic Jedi: I Know hun <3. I am just saying it's really easy to mess up the text book double nickle cheat with a few cuts then a good shuffle.
Hi Tina. This is exactly what happened in the Canada shuffling video. Indeed it is very noticeable which is why people watching the live stream called it to the judges attention. The player clearly divides his cards into three groups: Pokemon, Trainers and Energy. He then proceeded to do the double 5-pile. Followed by a very limited deck shuffle (some call it a hindu shuffle). This process is very easy to do. Not difficult. Players do it to evenly distribute resources throughout the deck. That is the problem. Even distribution is not the same goal as a random distribution.
This is where the issue gets sticky. I genuinely believe that many players aren't aware of the difference in those terms and believe that "even distribution" is a synonym for random and thus is a desireable goal for a shuffle. Ont he other hand, I also believe there are a number of player who know exactly what the difference is and are purposely do this to gain advantage and thus are stacking their deck. Indeed this is textbook stacking.
I think it is a good thing that the community is discussing the topic openly. Hopefully this will result in improved communication of deck randomization rules as well as better education and enforcement of same.
Look forward to seeing you next week. :smile:
This is where the issue gets sticky. I genuinely believe that many players aren't aware of the difference in those terms and believe that "even distribution" is a synonym for random and thus is a desireable goal for a shuffle. Ont he other hand, I also believe there are a number of player who know exactly what the difference is and are purposely do this to gain advantage and thus are stacking their deck. Indeed this is textbook stacking.
I think it is a good thing that the community is discussing the topic openly. Hopefully this will result in improved communication of deck randomization rules as well as better education and enforcement of same.
Look forward to seeing you next week. :smile:
StormFront
New Member
At the start of a game you should always shuffle your opponents deck before cutting. To prevent any deck manipulation. Sometimes I'll do it mid game, but that's more often because my opponent is a bad shuffler.
signofzeta
New Member
If you just had to look at your deck, you look at it BEFORE any shuffling, not during, and not after the shuffling.
It doesn't hurt to re-arrange the intitial order of cards before the shuffling, as long as you do a good shuffle afterwards, but if you do a shuffle, look at the cards and see that they are in an undesired order, shuffle again, check the card order and you don't like it, and shuffle again, that's probably cheating, and a delay of game.
Once you start shuffling, you shouldn't look at your cards. I know it is hard, as I have tried to do the mash shuffle, and I always see the bottom card, or what will be the bottom card, unless I look away while I shuffle, but I mean, who looks away while they shuffle?
The only reason to look at your cards in the first place is to make sure you have 60 cards in your deck, or make sure you have the correct cards in your deck, and that is usually done before the shuffling process.
It doesn't hurt to re-arrange the intitial order of cards before the shuffling, as long as you do a good shuffle afterwards, but if you do a shuffle, look at the cards and see that they are in an undesired order, shuffle again, check the card order and you don't like it, and shuffle again, that's probably cheating, and a delay of game.
Once you start shuffling, you shouldn't look at your cards. I know it is hard, as I have tried to do the mash shuffle, and I always see the bottom card, or what will be the bottom card, unless I look away while I shuffle, but I mean, who looks away while they shuffle?
The only reason to look at your cards in the first place is to make sure you have 60 cards in your deck, or make sure you have the correct cards in your deck, and that is usually done before the shuffling process.
NoPoke
Active Member
So when is before shuffling? When are you allowed to look? If you know that you are not good at shuffling or that you technique needs to be improved how can you tell without looking?
I have returned decks to players after a deck check and watched the subsequent shuffles. They are invariably inadequate. So I tell them to shuffle more and they look at me as though I'm mad as they did 7 riffles, spent 3 minutes shuffling, or whatever. I pick up the deck and check and it still looks like a partially ordered decklist. So I tell them to shuffle more!
If you want to try this then order you deck as per decklist and then shuffle as though it were the start of a new game. A lot of players are in for a nasty surprise when they see just how little of the decklist order has been destroyed by typical pre-game shuffles. Of course this is why some players switched to double piling as that looks good . But without a further shuffle it is not good at all as you just stacked your deck.
I have returned decks to players after a deck check and watched the subsequent shuffles. They are invariably inadequate. So I tell them to shuffle more and they look at me as though I'm mad as they did 7 riffles, spent 3 minutes shuffling, or whatever. I pick up the deck and check and it still looks like a partially ordered decklist. So I tell them to shuffle more!
If you want to try this then order you deck as per decklist and then shuffle as though it were the start of a new game. A lot of players are in for a nasty surprise when they see just how little of the decklist order has been destroyed by typical pre-game shuffles. Of course this is why some players switched to double piling as that looks good . But without a further shuffle it is not good at all as you just stacked your deck.
In fact, when I'm judging, I WATCH for players looking away from their deck while they do this.
signofzeta
New Member
So? So what if those 7 riffles ended up as partially ordered decklist? How do you know that the 6th riffle had the order of the cards that isn't like the decklist, and the 7th one put it back? You don't.
Imagine this scenario. They do shuffling technique 1. Bad distribution. "NOT RANDOM". Do shuffling technique 2. Bad Distribuiton. "NOT RANDOM". Does shuffling technique 3. Favorable distribution. "RANDOM". How do you prevent this from happening? You nor anyone else can check for randomness. In random, certain events can happen with random. The word "should" should not be in any part of the word random. If something should happen with random, then it isn't random.
The purpose of randomizing the deck is to destroy information. If you are looking at the deck just to see how random it is, then you are regaining that information, in which you have to shuffle again. If you don't know that your deck isn't as random as you expect, you won't gain any advantage from it. If the deck order happens to be the same after multiple games, then yeah, that could be suspect, but if it happens to one game, there is no reason to call out on it.
psst. Fully random is impossible.
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Bilbo Baggins
New Member
I...... I look away while shuffling most of the time.
sdrawkcab
Forum Moderator
Why? I look at my opponent all the time while I'm shuffling. Gotta make sure they're shuffling properly and all....=p
Because I'm a judge, not a player.
signofzeta
New Member
Well, when I meant look away, I meant look behind you, or look up in a way that it is impossible to get a glimpse of even one corner of the card.
I was looking the video, and I think he just did his shuffling technique backwards. Don't you agree?
He riffles the deck a few times, looks at the deck and reorders the cards, and does a few hand over hands. Now imagine if he did this in reverse order, well except for the pile part.
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