Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

How and why is killing wrong?

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So you are saying you're taking an illogical stance?

Morality sometimes requires us to make great sacrifices. You'd sacrifice whatever feelings you had to be able to kill for 200 but not for 2? What the difference, the number? What about to save three? Five? Is it some arbitrary number, because so far it seems that you don't know the number, but there is no rationality behind the number, so it's just a random assignment.

You were conditioned to cherish youth? Does that mean that you know it's some other factor, not real moral rule, that says that, for you at least, killing a child is wrong?

I completely acknowledge my stance as illogical.

Why would a gal get with a guy for a million dollars, but not for twenty dollars? It's all just gettin' for money after all.

Why would I kill to save for 200, but not 2? I don't know what number tips the scales. Rationally the number should be 2, and being forced to think about it, I would consider 2; but I feel much more comfortable with 200.

My conditioning as an Infantry soldier would require me to save a woman before a man. Completely illogical, but the Army reinforces the don't hit a girl thing that we're raised with with a healthy dose of protecting the weak and fighting to keep Mary safe and free back at home. I know that most women are not weak and don't need protecting, while there are some men who are weak and do need protection; but the conditioning would likely influence my course of action.

So women and children have more value to me than men. With no basis in any kind of fair moral code. Just the way it is.

I have absolutely no logical reason, based in logic, for wanting greater reward for breaking the inhibition to kill, for favoring saving children over adults, for favoring saving women over men. Upon examination I am comfortable with my inclinations.
 
In this scenario there is a DIRECT causal relationship between NOT killing the first individual and it resulting in the death of the latter individual(s). As I said, treat everything as fact and the fact is that unless the former killing occurs there will be the latter killing.

If everyone is equal, why is one trying to kill the other? Killing someone for no apparent reason means the guy must have something wrong with him, meaning that they aren't all equal.
 
just imagine Voldemort, Dumbledor, Mewtwo, and Goku all fused into one mighty diety that for a few days decides to go "evil".They set all these crazy situations up that really, you CAN'T possibly stop uness you kill somebody.
 
It is a natural instinct most humans have to see women and children as weaker vessels, not as strong, tough, and durable as the adult male. Yet again, the people who said they would not kill a child aren't looking at all beings as equal, because theres a morale honor you lose if you kill a defenceless child.
 
If everyone is equal, why is one trying to kill the other? Killing someone for no apparent reason means the guy must have something wrong with him, meaning that they aren't all equal.

I said

It doesn't matter. Equal value all around, so they are such that they all have equal value. Whatever properties one needs to possess to be equal to some other individuals in your mind is exactly the properties any of these individuals have. They are blank slates.

The only things that matter are that all individuals are equal, and that the facts will take place. Nothing else matters.

I said that there values were equal. They are all "worth the same" as people. There are some people who may think that nuns lives are worth MORE than say, convicts. I am asking you to make NO SUCH distinction- these individuals are whatever they must be so that they are equal in your mind. It could all be your next-door neighbor or a hundred copies of your Aunt Susan. Doesn't matter. They could all be different people if you think every human is worth the same. Whatever. The point is that they are equal.

Has everyone gotten this yet? What is so hard about thinking of these people lives having equal value?

Azure:
So there is some kind of honor one loses in killing a child whose worth is greater than the lives of two adults? Is that what you are saying? or is that what you are saying, pokedad?

And a woman? Would you kill Jane and Jill to save Ron, Tim and James?
Would you kill a 7 year old child to save Jane and Jill?
But if you would do that, then that would mean the lives of two women are more valuable than the lives of two men, meaning the lives of women are more valuable than men, but that is both illogical and morally misguided.
 
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Sure. It's very true. Probably closer to 99.9 realistically. But it would be nice if you could at least do a yes/no to 1-4



But these examples aren't supposed to help us should we get into such situations, they are supposed to help us understand what kind of value we place on life, what kind of view we have on murder, and essentially- how and why killing is wrong. I think after this thread nearly everyone will have at least a little better understanding of what it is about murder and life that we hold so dear. It may illuminate other areas of interest like abortion or war or welfare.

If you post in this thread, please include a yes or no response to the 4 numbered questions given in the first post.
This will help provide more examples and a better pool of perspectives from which to garner ideas.
 
I'd answer your questions, but really, it's a little weird to do so without actually being in the situation. Even if you want us to, that doesn't mean that's how anyone would actually respond when under a situation like that.

In Psychology, there's this famous example that when polled, 95%ish of people would help a person who they hear in another room fall and cry for help. Seems like almost everyone would do that, right? When they actually perform the experiment, where people come into a room, see a women outside trying to screw in a lightbulb (before entering), and then she falls while they are waiting for an experimenter to come in, only like 3/10 people actually go in to the other room to help her. The other people just sit.

So even if you want me to answer your questions, that doesn't mean that's what I'll actually do. :p But just for the record, "killing" wouldn't be my first action. I'd actually try to subdue the person attempting the killing, possibly kicking them where it hurts if necessary then running with Tim and Ron for my life. I'm totally serious. Killing is usually the very last resort after everything has been exhausted. So while you tell us our options are limited in that we have to kill or not kill a person, there would probably never, ever be a situation in which we have to actually resort to killing as a last resort. So just the situation of your experiment doesn't really make sense, just as answering your questions doesn't make sense. :p

EDIT: Oh, and this sounds like something that would happen in a cheesy B-rated movie. It's almost like asking someone, "If you could blow up the world or the universe, which has no life in this example and excludes the world, which would you do?" It wouldn't happen, and you can't judge our morals by it because it's an unrealistic situation.

Those are my answers.

EDIT #2: Oh, and if you want me to shut up because I'm being hard to handle, I will. :p
 
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Have you been in some of these situations??

For some reason i find that very unlikely.

Please tell me, since you can't/couldn't kill, what happened?

I did not say I have been in one of these particular situations. I said I have been in ones like it. I really don't like talking about them. I will say that even though I didn't resolve the issue someone else did. I couldn't bring my self to do what others I know were able to do.
 
it all depends but for me there is one answer to all of these
1. Would you kill Tim to prevent the killing of both Tim and Ron?
2. Would you kill James to prevent the killing of both Tim and Ron?
3. Would you kill Tim to prevent the killing of both 200 people?
4. Would you kill a 7 year old child to prevent the killing of Tim and Ron, two adults?
do i like the people
 
you can't like them, you have to remove all emotional attatchment from them. They are also all the same, equal in every respect.
 
I said that there values were equal. They are all "worth the same" as people. There are some people who may think that nuns lives are worth MORE than say, convicts. I am asking you to make NO SUCH distinction- these individuals are whatever they must be so that they are equal in your mind. It could all be your next-door neighbor or a hundred copies of your Aunt Susan. Doesn't matter. They could all be different people if you think every human is worth the same. Whatever. The point is that they are equal.

Okay. My 'Aunt Susan' would never shoot someone. You want me to believe that everyone are equal, then everyone are the same type of person that would kill someone else for no reason whatsoever. In that case, I don't care who dies out of the bunch, as they are all killers. But I can't treat each person as equal person and act like someone who can just kill someone for no reason is equal to those who wouldn't.
 
I said


So there is some kind of honor one loses in killing a child whose worth is greater than the lives of two adults? Is that what you are saying, pokedad?

And a woman? Would you kill Jane and Jill to save Ron, Tim and James?

Would you kill a 7 year old child to save Jane and Jill?

But if you would do that, then that would mean the lives of two women are more valuable than the lives of two men, meaning the lives of women are more valuable than men, but that is both illogical and morally misguided.

Illogical and morally misguided? Guilty as charged.

Two women and two men in a room, kill any two or all four will be killed. Result: two saved women.

Two children and two women in a room, kill any two or all for will be killed. Result: two saved children.

Individual moral codes aren't always logical, throw the notions of honor and conditioning into the mix, and the results can be terrifying.

Example: George Bush condemned about 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians to death in his unwarranted war and occupation of Iraq because God told him to do it.

I would like to think that I am morally superior to Bush; and although flawed, I believe my code of honor learned in the military (unlike Bush, I really served) would lead to different choices.
 
I guess I just can't get the point of across that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE- THEY ARE WHATEVER THEY ARE SUCH THAT THEY ARE EQUAL IN VALUE.

I really... can't make it any simpler. You guys just can't seem to get over the idea of treating everyone equally, making it impossible to discuss morality.
 
1. Would you kill Tim to prevent the killing of both Tim and Ron? If I was the only one capable of saving them, yes.

2. Would you kill James to prevent the killing of both Tim and Ron? See problem 1.

3. Would you kill Tim to prevent the killing of both 200 people? Yes.

4. Would you kill a 7 year old child to prevent the killing of Tim and Ron, two adults?
This proplem is no different then Problem 2, just worded differently, this is a trick question. If you follow your rule ont hat eveyone has the same value reguardless of their age, then there is NO difference so... See problem 1.
 
The idea is that we say we treat every life as equal, but do we really? As Pokedad has shown, and I'll bet most people naturally felt, they were squeamish about number 4. The assertion is that we treat lives equally but we in fact do not. Then we have to think if that pours into other areas that we might be misguided in. Perhaps our thoughts on the death penalty or abortion or murder or manslaughter should be changed in the wake of this?

We ought to value every human life as the same, right, so why is our intuition conflicting with our logic in these scenarios? It is because the very principles that we hold for murder are not what they actually are. Accepting this will change one's view on a whole multitude of topics. We could be wrong about, and probably are wrong about, so many different aspects of murder and killing. We don't have any sort of consensus on this forum, so I can't even imagine how the law can reflect what is right.
 
1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.

I don't believe in killing anyone as long as there is any chance of stopping the people from dying another way. If I kill someone, I have done something just as bad as the killer did. I'd rather shoot the killer in the hand so he can't fire his gun, or knock him out if I must stop him.
SPEAK THE TRUTH MAN!!!!!!!! do u want to know what killing brings more killing. killing brings more voilence. more violence brings more madness. more madness brings more evil. more evil brings darkness. the more darkness, the more truth is blined. don't kill at all, because you just did what the killer was intentionally going to do.
 
I don't think so much that we treat everyone equal to begin with, or they all hold the same value. They all have the _potential_ to be great, but they aren't great naturally. Would you rather save the alcoholic homeless crack-addict or the owner of a small buisiness? The un-savebale cancer patient or your mother? I think your assertion about us treating everyone equally is misplaced or misguided. Sure, that would probably be an optimum, but it hasn't "come to fruition" yet.

However, this doesn't mean that racism/sexism is rampant. To not have a high opinion of someone is to dislike them. ****, be nuetral even. I don't even think you can carry what we gather from these hypothetical examples into the real world. In the real world, everyone is different, probably the KEY difference between your examples and the world.

And don't ever think that the law system is balanced, it obviously isn't. The jury just says whether the person is guilty/not guilty, they have no say in the sentence at all, which I think is a flaw that should be remidied in some way, but this isn't the place for rants on the judicial system.
 
The idea is that we say we treat every life as equal, but do we really? As Pokedad has shown, and I'll bet most people naturally felt, they were squeamish about number 4. The assertion is that we treat lives equally but we in fact do not. Then we have to think if that pours into other areas that we might be misguided in. Perhaps our thoughts on the death penalty or abortion or murder or manslaughter should be changed in the wake of this?

We ought to value every human life as the same, right, so why is our intuition conflicting with our logic in these scenarios? It is because the very principles that we hold for murder are not what they actually are. Accepting this will change one's view on a whole multitude of topics. We could be wrong about, and probably are wrong about, so many different aspects of murder and killing. We don't have any sort of consensus on this forum, so I can't even imagine how the law can reflect what is right.

If every human life is equal, why specify that its a child and 2 adults in that last question? I don't see why age matters if we're all equal. Anyone else who takes this seriously will have the same problem.

Assume that the humans are gold bars(equal in size and value), obivously dropping any age, name, or any other specificalities. You want to keep them, but because of these questions, obviously your going to lose some. In every question, obviously the answer would be whichever kept more gold bars. No gold bar is more valuable that another, just like no human life is more valuable than another.

If you truly want us to take all the lives in these questions as equal, you need to drop name age or anything else that makes the human distinctive to another, and just call them humans. If your not doing that, your giving them individuality.

My name is Tim(actually Timothy, but everyone calles me Tim), so why not just give all the answers that would possibly keep Tim alive? Humans naturally have preference when given a choice between 2 or more individual and different things.

When I am watching the TV, and turn it over to a channel showing some sort of competition (a ball game, for instance), I personally cannot help but lean toward 1 team or another. The teams are distinctive, in team name, uniform color, and one team is obviously better in the sport.

But what if both teams were nameless, having just plain gray uniforms, neither team in the lead, both equally matched, no popular players, nothing distinctive about them? I would have no preference at all, because nothing was special causing me to choose 1 over the other. I would soon lose interest, and change the channel.:lol:

This is my point. When forced with a choice, humans naturally will resort to they're own preference, often affected by outside sources.

Example 1

Your an assasin, payed to do a job, but your offered more money for killing 1 important person over another, whom you would get less money for killing. Obviously, you're gonna want to make more money for your dirty work, and this would affect your preference as an outside source.

Example 2

You were invited to 2 different bithrday parties by 2 people your know from school, on the same date and at the same time, and having no other obligations, should go to one. Your invited to one by a person you barely know, who just transferred from another school. The other party you were invited to is for your best friend. I think theres an obvious choice.

These are examples of times your going to make a choice, but some outside sources "encourage" you more than others.

Bottom line. As long as these questions have room for preference, this survey is flawed.
 
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