How Late Is Too Late In Tournament Play?

[xcfrisco]

Not letting people take moves back when no new information has been divulged is Uber Lame :dark:

Really Uber Lame (I guess if its in the rules though...)

 

[skovtrold]

But can also be gamebreaking when playing serious though. Imagine the worlds final in masters, Player A makes a mistake, realizes the mistake, before he does anything else. Player B agrees to let player A take back his move, Player A then makes the right move instead, pulls out überpwnage card and wins the match.
OR player B disagrees to let player A take back his move, because it was a misplay he made and he just has to learn from his fails and suck it up.

To all of the girls who reads this, read his as his/her, it just takes too long time to write it all the time

 

[Happiny13]

Not letting people take moves back when no new information has been divulged is Uber Lame :dark:

Really Uber Lame (I guess if its in the rules though...)

Not thinking out your moves in advance is your problem. I don't expect anyone to let me take back a move in a large tournament so I usually won't let them.

 

[Chromecatz]

Ill have to say the start of my turn of plays is most definitely too late to change searches. Ill allow if i have only drawn though.

 

[xcfrisco]

But can also be gamebreaking when playing serious though. Imagine the worlds final in masters, Player A makes a mistake, realizes the mistake, before he does anything else.

I highlighted the key parts. What about that sequence is game-breaking exactly? Like I said, no NEW knowledge has been revealed by either player.

Not thinking out your moves in advance is your problem. I don't expect anyone to let me take back a move in a large tournament so I usually won't let them.

You should program a computer that will always analyze the best possible scenario. It'll give you more of a challenge than playing people who are prone to making mistakes. Said computer will probably also not let you take back one of your own mistakes, depends on how good (or bad) you want your program to be.

On a serious note, letting people take back moves (WHEN THE GAME STATE HAS NOT CHANGED) is just a matter of how serious you are about pokemon. If you're really serious about not letting someone take back an energy drop from within 3-5 seconds of the intial drop, then I'd guess its safe to say that you're pretty serious about pokemon and take it seriously....:water:

This probably isn't an issue to the top players in pokemon (about a dozen or so players probably who consistently place high in high-profile tournies) but its an issue for about the other 95% of people who play pokemon and aren't NEARLY as good and are much more prone to "simple mistakes." (I for one don't consider the above scenario a misplay, sue me)

I also don't think its as easy as just saying "if you make mistakes you're a worse player." This can be both an issue for people who enjoy playing really fast (for whatever reason, ie., their tendencies as a person, their wish to have as much of match as possible go by before time is called, etc) and for those who play slower/really slow. Its an issue for those who play slow because between the "fear" of being accused of stalling, having opponents tell you to hurry up, etc, it can and does become nervewracking using the max amount of time allotted to think out one's moves,

Or in Happiny's declaration; "not thinking" out one's moves.




(**On a side note is it really possible to not think out one's moves when playing the Pokemon tcg? I tried playtesting Luxchomp v Jumpluff the other day against a carrot and found the game incredibly boring and lackluster. I was playing Luxchomp of course :lightning:**))


I honestly don't see the harm of letting players take back moves when game state doesn't change

 

[Mach]

In tournaments, I just give one courtesy take-back, like taking an Energy back or undoing a retreat, each round. As long as it doesn't change game state or utilize more than 2 different cards, I'll let it go once. After that, it's just a misplay.

 

[skovtrold]

I highlighted the key parts. What about that sequence is game-breaking exactly? Like I said, no NEW knowledge has been revealed by either player.

I don't know exactly what it is that is so gamebreaking, it just is, but it could be a wrong energy attachment. (example)



On a serious note, letting people take back moves (WHEN THE GAME STATE HAS NOT CHANGED) is just a matter of how serious you are about pokemon. If you're really serious about not letting someone take back an energy drop from within 3-5 seconds of the intial drop, then I'd guess its safe to say that you're pretty serious about pokemon and take it seriously....:water:

Some people do play serious, and rate every match very high, either because of ranking points, or because of whatever tourny they might be attending too.



I honestly don't see the harm of letting players take back moves when game state doesn't change.

It's still a mistake they made, and it might mean you win the game from it, will you then let them undo what they did, and beat you?

Added your quote with my answers.

 

[corrupti0n]

Personally, if the game state hasnt changed, i usually let the other person undo it. Cause at the end of the day, when you do something like that you would like them to extend you the same courtesy.

 

[ryanvergel]

kaga: the poker analogy fails because if your hand is clasping the chips when they are over the line, and you withdraw them- they are not bet. they have to be moved/left over the line, and if the action isn't completed it's a dick move. maybe the motion signals a mandatory bet of SOME size, then, etc. but that is just splitting hairs.

if the action is not completed- then it wasn't performed yet.

"can i take back a move that hasn't been performed yet?"
"you're speaking nonsense" (of course you can). that is my take on it.

 

[skovtrold]

kaga: the poker analogy fails because if your hand is clasping the chips when they are over the line, and you withdraw them- they are not bet. they have to be moved/left over the line, and if the action isn't completed it's a dick move. maybe the motion signals a mandatory bet of SOME size, then, etc. but that is just splitting hairs.

if the action is not completed- then it wasn't performed yet.

"can i take back a move that hasn't been performed yet?"
"you're speaking nonsense" (of course you can). that is my take on it.

I agree, that if he/she hasn't let go of his hand on the energy, then yes, he is allowed to take back the energy, but if he let go, and asks for it to take back, then I denie it..

 

[ryanvergel]

Personally, if the game state hasnt changed, i usually let the other person undo it. Cause at the end of the day, when you do something like that you would like them to extend you the same courtesy.

I've seen numerous posts about opponent's actions not changing the game state.

What action or playing of a card doesn't change the game state?

If you're even ALLOWING something to be taken back, that presupposed something CHANGED the game state. Enough for them to even request a takeback!

 

[Box of Fail]

^The question is whether performing the action and taking it back lets the player gain an advantage that would not be present had the action never been performed, i.e. deck searches, lookering and then taking it back, cosmicing, getting sprayed, taking back, etc etc.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

kaga: the poker analogy fails because if your hand is clasping the chips when they are over the line, and you withdraw them- they are not bet.

This is not true everywhere. Many casinos are shifting to the rule that any chip moved beyond the line constitutes a commitment of those chips to the pot, regardless of whether you have released them (and if those chips are of an off value, you must then complete the bet or raise). They have started adopting this rule specifically to end the type of shenanigans you describe (oh look my hand's still on it, my hand's still on it) from people attempting to skirt the string bet rule and gain information. There was an instance of this in a televised WSOP satellite in recent memory.

 

[AzNightmare]

I just let my opponents take back whenever as long as it's prompt and he does so before the next procedure of his turn.
That way, I can beat them with them having no excuses. :smile:

I've seen numerous posts about opponent's actions not changing the game state.

What action or playing of a card doesn't change the game state?

If you're even ALLOWING something to be taken back, that presupposed something CHANGED the game state. Enough for them to even request a takeback!

They're simply referring to stuff like energy attachment, or card searching, and stuff like that.
If I attached an energy to Charmander. Then after (without doing anything in between), decided to put it on Chimchar, then does it really make a difference?
Where as if I attached an energy to Charmander. Use a Lux Ball, realized Charmeleon is in the Prize. I take out Monferno instead.
And request to move the energy from Charmander to Chimchar. Then that's a different case.

 

[kwisdumb]

As far as playing cards down goes, I've always had a general rule that when it hits the table is when it's official. I'll see a lot of players hold their energy over their Pokemon for a second and then take it back, and some will tap a Supporter on the table and then lift it back up, etc. (face down, of course). But when the card snaps against the table is when we call it official.

 

[toxictaipan]

There is an official rule from POP concerning b), and that is that a search is considered final once the player begins shuffling their deck.

a) has no such official guidance (sadly), but personally I do not support the "oh I still have a finger on it" form of play. If you take an Energy card and attach it to a Pokemon, I would consider it attached at that point, even if your hand is still on it. You are supposed to consider your move before starting to make it. (For more reasons why I think this way, look up "string bet" in poker.)

For c), once you have declared a game action, you must carry it out. See above.

Obviously, having your opponent's permission obviates all of the above.

I disagree with this. String bets in poker can be used to help read an opponent. I don't think simply holding an Energy on a Pokemon for a few seconds will give you such useful information.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

I disagree with this. String bets in poker can be used to help read an opponent. I don't think simply holding an Energy on a Pokemon for a few seconds will give you such useful information.

The point is that it is sloppy play, regardless of any malice behind it. (And in fact, most invocations of the string bet rule in poker nowadays are not against pro players trying to exploit, but players that are simply being sloppy with their actions.)

Have you noticed that there is no issue with considering your action before putting it into play? There is no ambiguity in that. That is how the game is intended to be played. Why do people have such a hard time with this? Just play the game without the shenanigans and a judge will never call you on it.

 

[charcharchar]

The point is that it is sloppy play, regardless of any malice behind it. (And in fact, most invocations of the string bet rule in poker nowadays are not against pro players trying to exploit, but players that are simply being sloppy with their actions.)

Have you noticed that there is no issue with considering your action before putting it into play? There is no ambiguity in that. That is how the game is intended to be played. Why do people have such a hard time with this? Just play the game without the shenanigans and a judge will never call you on it.

I feel a lot of pressure from opponents to rush my actions, because when playing in tournaments, I set my hand face down on the table to allow me to concentrate on my opponents turn. The down side to that is that I start every turn by taking more than a few seconds to look at my cards and think things through. So I might think 'Okay, attach to donphan, play luxury ball for uxie, use whatever supporter I get... wait, I want to psychic restore this turn, so I need to hold the energy during my set up...'
Which often leads to me attaching to phanpy anyway, on accident.
My issue is that I have a very, very hard time concentrating for very long, and I am a verbal processor... although I consider my actions, I can't always remember what I want to do if I don't say it out loud.

That having been said, I just let it lie, usually. I prefer not to ask to take moves back at tournaments. I will let my opponents take moves back, though.

 

[gallade]

I had this kid pull this crap move on me: He placed an energy on something on his bench. Lifted his hand up, about 3 trainer cards later he moves the energy because 'i had my elbow on it'. I did not let him, but jeez...

 

[ryanvergel]

I just let my opponents take back whenever as long as it's prompt and he does so before the next procedure of his turn.
That way, I can beat them with them having no excuses. :smile:





They're simply referring to stuff like energy attachment, or card searching, and stuff like that.
If I attached an energy to Charmander. Then after (without doing anything in between), decided to put it on Chimchar, then does it really make a difference?
Where as if I attached an energy to Charmander. Use a Lux Ball, realized Charmeleon is in the Prize. I take out Monferno instead.
And request to move the energy from Charmander to Chimchar. Then that's a different case.

then they shouldn't say "change game state". that means something different.

change the outcome, change the course of things, etc