Ideas that PUI could consider for next year...

[JandPDS]

I wish we could go back to the way it used to be a few years ago when rankings points were just for fun and did not mean anything. Tournaments were a lot more laid back and relaxed and no one cared if a City Championship in one place had 50 players in an age group and a top 16 cut, while another City Championship in another area had 14 players in an age group and a top 4 cut.

Back when it was ok if a player was able to attend 4 State Championships and 2 Regional Championships in the same year if they so felt inclined. Back when a player could belive that it was not insane to experiment with a brand new red face paint deck in a City Championship, only to have it have it fail. That would not be all that big of a deal, as it would have no lasting effect on you as a player after that one event was over and done. Back when a player who had already won a prior City Championship would go 4-0 and drop out of the top cut after swiss so that some other player could take home a medal who had not yet won a title. Not like today were players drop after going 4-0 in Swiss play because they dont want to risk loosing any gained points in the top cut.

The game today is still great, and I really enjoy Organized play and the Premier events, but the atmosphere had indeed changed at Tournaments and not for the better. The forced small top cuts put such pressure on each and every game that there is almost no room for error and an early round donking can be fatal. The added pressure of ranking points and pefect record in tournaments is causing there to be less civil game play at all levels. I know of many long term players, who were playing tourneys for fun and for love of the game of Pokemon, but not necessarily to win events, who have either stopped playing altogether, or have seriously considered doing so. Our league just lost one player who was of a 3 year league member and also one of our Leage Leaders, he left because he was no longer enjoying the direction that he felt the game was heading.

Keep track of ranking points because they are fun. (My personal goal each year is to finish in the top 10 of my States age group.. this year I am 9th) But just make them exactly that just for fun. Then they can give invites to Worlds to the Regional Champions and to the Nationals T16 players. Or just give invites to the Top 32 at Nationals only. Either way would be a fair way to distribute them, and a lot less stressful then the system that is currently in place. Then no one would have to worry about a single bad tourney in November ruining their chance to participate in worlds, or a T2 loss to a much lower rated player would not be so horrifying. And everyone else could just go back to enjoy playing the game of Pokemon, and as often as they would like.

 

[Charisychulee]

Here's what I think.

Chess clocks are a good idea, but too expensive. In that case why don't the judges give out penalties for stalling like it tells you to in the penalty guidelines. If judges would give warnings and prize penalties for stalling, like they are supposed to, it would stop IMEDIATELY! Instead all they do is give out cautions and time extentions, after cautions and time extentions, after cautions and time extentions! That does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Increase the penalty every time you see stalling and it would stop!

Secondly, the ratings SUCK! The ratings have taken ALL of the FUN out of the game! Nobody cares about meeting friends and having FUN anymore! Isn't that what this game should be about? Instead, everyone is trying to BEAT DOWN thier friends to try and get an invite to another stupid event! The game used to be FUN. Friends helped friends get better and helped each other improve their decks and stratigies. Now friends, even MY friends, are trying to beat each other down to get a couple rating points!
Little kids are getting discouraged and upset because they know that they have no chance of getting to Worlds.

Now about the prizes, I will NEVER be able to go to Worlds because I can't afford it! But what am I, a HS grad who isn't going to college, or a HS/college grad without any kids, going to do with a $30,000 scholarship? I mean, stop giving out thousands of dollars worth of scholarships and start giving out more packs and trips to Nats and Worlds. I got first place at a BR and got HALF a box, a few pokemon pencils, and a PAT ON THE BACK??? Come on! Give out some REAL prizes! And why do the people who got lucky enough to go to worlds come home with mountains and mountians of suff and promo cards that you can only get by going to worlds? That is like a slap in the face to all of the players who can't afford to go!

I suppose I vented long enough for now, but I'll be back on here later to yap about more things that bother me.

Peace out,
Charisychulee

 

[NoPoke]

The rating system is not the cause of cheating.

The rating system does encourage a few very highly rated players to sit out. But it also encourages those on the cusp and in the chase to play.

If you say that you want players who do well all season to be rewarded, and almost everyone here does, then how can you argue against a few players sitting out nationals?

If you argue that it is the rewards that cause cheating then scraping ratings wont change a thing. The only fix there is to scrap the rewards. No one wants to see that.

Players cheat when they believe they will get away with it. Players cheat when they believe everyone else is cheating. The former is usually kept at bay by our sense of fairness. The latter however is a big issue if left unchecked. SO REPORT CHEATING/ SUSPECTED CHEATING. Not here but to POP and the PTOs and the Judges.

If you aren't interested in ratings then there is nothing stopping you playing just for fun.

For every post saying that the ratings system somehow stops you having fun there will be another post in a different thread saying the motivation for playing is to WIN and that the only way to play is to use whatever deck they think will give them the best chance of winning.

Regarding change. Every year there has been change. POP hasn't stayed still on this ever. A whole host of proposals were made on the official forum for alternative ways of determining outcome in a timed game. The operation of the rating system gets some scrutiny there too, though the math can get a bit heavy at times.

POP have to make decisions from a different perspective to the average 'gymmer. POP cannot take a USA centric view otherwise the game will go the way of many good games that failed outside the USA. POP can't focus all their decisions on what is best for the , by definition ,minority of top players.

 

[bullados]

I agree with many of Clay's points. Also, as Vince pointed out, 7 store level events in a year is a good number. The PTOs will run even more than that bc most of us service more than ONE city. Some even run events in more than 1 state! Bottom line, we cannot wear out the PTOs. They have lives, families and IRL jobs to do (jobs and work are both 4 letter words! :lol: )

There are not 7 store level events. Anybody who thinks so is deluding themselves. In order for there to be 7 store level events, you need to either be a PTO (like PokeMama), or be in cahoots with a PTO (like BANGINBOX). You also need copious amounts of monies in order to organize four of those 7 events during the year. For areas that don't have a PTO, you have 3 local large events a year, and that's not enough to grow the game effectively.

Ok... Seems as if we are only touching on a few of the suggestions. I would also like to interject these suggestion as well....

Why cant PUI start charging for events again? I am sure that people would gladly submit 5-10 dollars for a chance to win possible thousands of dollars in prizes.

Bad idea. PUI has stated repeatedly that their target age group is the 15-, not the 15+. The best way to get this particular age group into the game is by holding free events.

Also,

Why can we have more events with the current prizes spread around a little more? Example.... Instead of 1500 dollars for one regional, have 2 sets and cut it to half.....

I would rather have more chances to win something than 1 chance to win it all....

I will respond to some posts directly later this evening.

Jimmy

I could only see that leading to more complaining. There are more prizes being handed out this year compared to last year. However, the "competitive" players have been wining about how their precious Regionals prizes have dropped from last year to this year. That's what happens when you spread the wealth overall. More complaining.

As far as rankings are concerned, I can see both the good points and the bad points to them. I can see that there are certain things that I believe would need to be done in order to make them more effective, and I can see why some believe that they need to be abolished. I like the FNM suggestion, as long as the Kvalue is low enough (i.e. MUCH lower than BR).

I really don't understand why people hate BRs so much. I love them. They're quick, competitive events that are fun to play in. They're local events designed to get people excited about the game, and they work very effectively in that role. Even the minimal prizes are enough to get kids excited about the game. Now, you can say that League does the same thing. I say that Leagues are the purest form of introduction to the game. BRs are the purest form of introduction to a tournament environment. Leagues are highly casual, and can at times be run differently week to week, much less League to League. BRs are really the lowest level events that have a completely standardized format, along with good prize support. Most importantly, they're one of only two ways that I can get a decent level tournament in my area.

I'll respond more when I have more time.

 

[P_A]

Personally I would appreciate the POP promo packs more if they held more of the useful trainers and energy that players need to make decent decks. POP5 was decent. Even the rarity scheme of POP6 wasn't totally awful. I could go for a few more rares interspersed within the packs - maybe not as much as POP6, but a happy medium would be nice.

More events available to leagues during the downtime between large events would be good as well - like an extra City championship per year.

Ratings/rankings ..... meh, I'm sorta indifferent to that. That may be partially due to being a judge instead of a player, but I say the rankings are about as fair as you're gonna get, I suppose. No chance that it can be totally fair to everyone, but this is a decent start. A few tweeks here and there wouldn't do much harm though.

For those areas of the country that don't see the major events - ie. Texas during Nationals, Ontario during Canadian Nationals, run a smaller event to keep the locals focused on pokemon as well. Sure, the big National events encourage people to attend, and are spectacular events no doubt, but how about those who can't afford under any circumstances to go that far? You should try to keep all the players involved, not just those who can afford to get to (or by reason of the luck of their geography) go to big, one time events.

I also support less drastic changes to the modified environment each year. A few sets lost is one thing, but a lot of players decide to quit pokemon when their beloved sets that they spent lots of money on get totally wiped out. Wiping out whole years worth of buying doesn't seem fair. Especially so when even Japan has way more sets in their modified than we do. A minimal effect to modified to keep it balanced would be the most advantageous. 4 sets or more per year seems excessive.

More to follow.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Actually, you get that every week! Its called LEAGUE! The best place in the world to try out the strange new idea and not lose points.

I really enjoy taking my kids to league & they nearly always have great fun. I get to talk to parents and the store folks and generally enjoy myself as well. However my league is a terrible place to test decks. It's fairly rare that I see other adults or even teenage masters players there who play in the competitive events. Pretty much any time I take an even halfway competitive deck I end up crushing anyone I play. I've usually end up take a barely tweaked theme decks to league just so the new folks & casual will not feel so overwhelmed. Love the theory behind leagues, and I'm also sure that some places probably do have leagues that would work like you describe, but it's simply not like that everywhere.

Anway on what I would like to see from PUI.

1. Make our product more like Japan's. This ranges from boxes & packs that look more like Japanese boxes to a format that is more in line with Japan's to theme decks that have more useable cards in them.

2. More frequent small competitive events. Love league as I posted above, but I would like to see more small scale events.

3. Change or even abandon the ranking system. The flaws have been pointed out many times and there are som nice posts already here. My thought is that you can keep the basic ranking system as is ... but have a "modified rank" that only counts the points gained or even win percentage from your best event in a given type of event. For instance if I go to 3 fall battle roads only the best one of those three would count towards my "modified rank" which is what would be used for invites. All 3 events would be recorded in my basic ranking. This way folks who can only go to one event aren't totally hosed while folks who go to many get benifits as well. With less stress you could try out "odd" or new ideas at one BR and play more competitively at another if your test deck didn't work.

 

[PokeDaddy]

Jimmy,

Another excellent, thought provoking thread.

There are many good things happening in the game. Several members (mew, etc) have described them well. It is nice to see a constructive dialog.

Areas that I believe need discussion.

1. Judging Program. Echoing other's posts above, a structured, controlled, and calibrated judging program would greatly enhance the game from the perspective of consistency.

2. Penalties. There is judging and then there is assigning penalties. One can judge a card ruling or a game rule, but assign penalties is different. There needs to be a consistent approach to penalty assignments. I applaud PUI for instituting the Tier system. Further refinement in this area would be welcome.

3. Growth Opportunities. What are the various growth opportunities within the Pokemon community as a whole? How do we access them?

4. Fees. I believe that PUI having free events is a noble gesture. I believe that there are plenty who would agree that a modest $5 fee for BR, CC, SC, RC, & Nats would go a long way in supporting the prize structure and award availability to the general population as a whole. Let's face it folks, we spend more getting coffee every day. I do not have the numbers however I can speak for the NE area.

Fall Battle Roads: 400, Cities: 500, States: 450, Regionals: 150, Spring Battle Roads, 300. This equates to 1800 individual entries.​

At $5 a pop, that $9K. Assuming a 35% overhead fee to process the money and do accounting, that leaves roughly $6K. That money could be used for a few more trips to nats, deeper prizes, or offsets to escalating costs for PUI.

5. Communication. One of the areas that most folks speculate about is the future (like this article). I might suggest that quarterly short blurb from PUI on the direction the TCG game is going and maybe some insite as why/how would provide players, judges, TOs and the like starting points for more meaningful discussions.

6. Compendium. The level X version is out standing. We should all applaud the effort that folks put into making that happen.

7. Compendium/Rules Team. Insite into this august body's rationale about rulings would be very very helpful. To post the results of the questions is great however, a short sentence or two about the why would make every person associated with the game smarter. Additionally, (don't kill me guys), what about succession planning for the rules team. A few have carried many for a long time. At some point, some will not be on the Team. What is the process (besides Vulcan succession) to grow the next generation of leaders in the rules/compendium arena?

8. Cheating. We are pikers compared to Magic judges in our ability to spot/prevent/catch cheating. We need to elevate our proficiency in this area because I believe we are missing quite a bit.

9. Unsporting Conduct. Vulgar/Inappropriate language is on the rise. The policy for this should be reviewed with no wiggle room allowed. Folks, this is a game for people of all ages. I have been known to swear like a trooper but there is no place for any language in the confines of an event. We need to get tougher on that.

All in all, I have no major issues with OP. I believe that it is going in a great direction with many dedicated and truly meaningful folks helping out.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Bolt]

It could even be $1!!

 

[Team Cook]

But what am I, a HS grad who isn't going to college, or a HS/college grad without any kids, going to do with a $30,000 scholarship?

Uh, this should be very simple. You change your mind about not going to college and GO TO COLLEGE. Reward yourself NOW and you'll be rewarded in the future for going to college.

I just read something about vulgar/inappropriate language being on the rise. It's only on the rise because the PTO, TO, or League Leaders are letting it get on the rise. There's no excuse for it. You stop it when it happens. DQ a player in front of a group of players and I promise you things will change.

 

[meganium45]

Steve, Fees for events are an idea that will be hard to bring back.

I think our attendance will plummet.

There are a lot of players who come for the fun of the event, but know in their hearts they have no shot of top 4ing at the event.

With an area dominated by a few top players, they will stop coming if they feel they are just paying for your kid and my kids' prizes.

I have seen it happen. It does happen.

Vince

 

[FlipsAreCool]

Changes

The only change I want to see is the implementation of Swiss +1. Especially at Nats this year :wink:.

 

[PokeDaddy]

I just read something about vulgar/inappropriate language being on the rise. It's only on the rise because the PTO, TO, or League Leaders are letting it get on the rise. There's no excuse for it. You stop it when it happens. DQ a player in front of a group of players and I promise you things will change.

TCD -

That was me who wrote about inappropriate language. I said that it is on the rise. I did not say that I take no action.

Foul language is one the rise. Period. I, my fellow NE judges, and PTO all have zero tolerance. My point is that I don't know how consistent language control is being handled by the organizers/judges of events across the whole community.
------------------------------------
Vince -

In what instance has an entry fee drove down attendance? Please let me know since I do not know of this happening in the present state of TCG games.

Steve

 

[BANGINBOX]

Steve....

Fees were charged in the WoTC days.... It had absolutely ZERO effect on attendance. In fact prize support was stronger when people payed to play. We also had a sense pride about the game. Like we were the ones keeping it going, and without us it would fail. I know that not to be the truth, but feeling like I was partly responsible for the games success made me feel like I HAD to attend events. Sort of a sense of ownership.

I will continue to elaborate futher later....

Vince and the propaganda machine.... Keep on rollin... lol...

Jimmy

 

[PokePop]

7. Compendium/Rules Team. Insite into this august body's rationale about rulings would be very very helpful. To post the results of the questions is great however, a short sentence or two about the why would make every person associated with the game smarter. Additionally, (don't kill me guys), what about succession planning for the rules team. A few have carried many for a long time. At some point, some will not be on the Team. What is the process (besides Vulcan succession) to grow the next generation of leaders in the rules/compendium arena?

Anytime anyone wants an expanded reasoning on a ruling, please post about it in the Single Cards: Strategy & Rulings forum (or whatever it's exact name is now). We'd be happy to go into the reasoning and other consequences of a ruling.
Note that some rulings come directly from Japan, rather than from application of underlying priciples, and for those, we may or may not be able to expand on the reasoning as we are not privvy to it ourselves.

As for succession, bear in mind that the rules team consists of representation from PUI and Team Compendium. It's PUI's ball game, and they can change that at their discretion, but that is how it has been and they seem satisfied with it that way. Changes to the rules team has occurred when changes in membership of Team Compendium has occurred. Since membership in Team Compendium carries with it part ownership of the Compendium and the PokeGym, adding and losing members is taken very seriously by us.
Amazingly, most of our decisions are made unanimously.

 

[meganium45]

Steve.

No city that hosted a Regional has come even close to that attendance for prereleases, even among their local players. Several have come close, heck I had 115 uniques at this pre from St. Louis, and thought that was quite good. I had over 140 uniques at my Regional from the STL area.

Most areas have a much larger league attendance than attend any paid events.

Our attendance has been way up since the institution of free events.

Several families have expressed the opinion (especially among the younger ranks) that they like the idea that their kids can come and play for free.

And even with the cost of joining the ownership of the above entities, I know there are several Steve, like yourself, me and lawman who would give their eye teeth to be on the inside of some of those meetings, but they have their board, and it has really worked well. I know they put a lot of work in that we do not see, not just in the rulings, but on the Professor Test Questions, and numerous other aspects of the game. (Look at him kissing up, just wanting to be on the succession list)

They have been strong for the past 5 years, and I do not see any of them going away anytime soon.

Vince

boy Jimmy, comparing the WOTC days and the PUI days is like comparing blech to apples.

The attendance on the Junior divisions has SKYROCKETED during the PUI era.

The main reason for that shoot was, in part, free events.

Look at the Nationals Juniors attendance every year.

Vince

 

[d13tp3ps1]

It seems like the people that are definitely going to play in a lot of higher-level tournaments wouldn't mind paying to play, while the people that mostly care to play just at league or smaller events wouldn't want to pay. So, why not make States and higher pay-to-play, and lower-level tournaments like BR's free? Prize support only seems like it's an issue at a higher level anyway. I would be extremely disappointed to win States or Regionals and get a shoddy prize, considering the competition is so much more intense.

 

[Prof Clay]

It seems like the people that are definitely going to play in a lot of higher-level tournaments wouldn't mind paying to play, while the people that mostly care to play just at league or smaller events wouldn't want to pay. So, why not make States and higher pay-to-play, and lower-level tournaments like BR's free? Prize support only seems like it's an issue at a higher level anyway. I would be extremely disappointed to win States or Regionals and get a shoddy prize, considering the competition is so much more intense.

Since when have states and regionals had shoddy prizes? Free events where you can win trophies, product, travel money, and scholarships...name 1 game that gives this level of prizes consistently. Also, its a competition so its the WINNERS and top 4 who walk with the best prizes. This is not peewee baseball where everyone at the end of the season should receive a participation trophy.

 

[vadrake]

I'd like to open up the idea that players can have the option to either pay to play or participate free.

This would allow those who feel they want to contribute to the game to have the option to, while still letting kids play the game for free. The game would still remain widely open to the entire public, while at the same time, the players who wish to assist can help remedy the situation for prize support, maybe not for the current year, but for the following year when "donations" are totaled.

They could also open it up for larger groups to donate to the game (though unlikely, as PUI would look weak from a corperate standpoint), which could easily hand in the $10,000 donation, which would equate to move than the $5 per person for an entire year. Assuming $1000 a trip to nationals or worlds (I don't travel, so I can't possibally know the numbers), a $10,000 donation would pay for ~10 players, and trastically improve the way that invites are handed out.

Even $100 could mean that 20-25 more packs get handed out.

As for rankings vs achievments deciding who goes to worlds, neither system is the best, but both have their merits. I say the system be balanced out so that their is a much closer spread as to how people get their invites (and a measure placed to prevent some people from soaking up several invites themselves, such as passdowns within that tornement).

 

[afstandopleren]

My piece of mind about Prereleases:
It's just a fun part of op where you get a few cards and are able to build decks that aren't following the standard rules.
There should not be a pairing system for Prereleases because you are playing with completeley random decks since you never know what you'll get. This is why I do'nt think that people should be paired according to win %.
It's just for the fun to play with unreleased cards.

 

[DarthPika]

It could even be $1!!

I would be happy with that. 20 Players = $20, and thats not bad for winning a small tournement.
I would gladly pay $5 for a tournement that had a chance of an invite.

One more thing. PLEASE let 4th and 3rd play off States. I feal it is HUGLY unfair that the 3rd place prsn should get more prizes just because of who they faced. As a 4th place finnisher at a States I would know how it feals.

One last thing that I would like to mention about the ranking systm that doenst work. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE YOU CAN STILL BE DONKED. You can easily lose a huge amount of points just because of an unlucky donk by a Togikiss.(dont even ask what i think of that card) How it that fair? It truly doesnt work as long as donks can happen. If POP could make it less likly to be donked then the ranking system could work.

Oh, BTW I HATE how the ranking systm expects you to beat a prsn with a lower rateing than you. It really doesnt work at all. My rateing is just under 1700. Now does that mean I'm a bad player and should lose to the many higher ranked players then me? No, it doesn't, as I'm a very good player, I just havnt been able to go to many tourneys this yr and have faced some ugly donkes. Its the same way with Jimmy. Just by looking at his rateing you would never guess how good he really is at the game. I beg POP to please consider changening or removeing the rateing system.