Irregularities at Prerelease

[SD PokeMom]

Just add the player (he doesn't get credit for any games, but gives his opponent the minimum 33% resistance tiebreaker points).

And how is this fair to the player(s) who only get the MINIMUM resistance points to accomodate these latecomers when the final standings seemed to have been determined entirely on resistance?

The PTO did the wrong thing, you admitted it yourself. Why muddy the waters with bogus examples of what Lizard supposedly did 'wrong' (which he did NOT, IMO) or by using situations from DCI Reporter? DCI Reporter was part of the problems at the event, as the PTO isn't supposed to even be USING it, much less using it incorrectly; your advice to an 8 year old who should have won his division is 'deal with it'?

'mom

 

[SteveP]

First of all PokeMom, if you read my initial reply to this topic, I TOO condemned the "deal with it" attitute regarding the PTO giving the 10-under prize to the wrong player.

Regarding the use of DCI-Reporter, although that's contractually wrong, you can't really blame someone for using it when the only current option is a bug-ridden TMS program. If you DO blame that person, you're only mirroring the same kind of "deal with it" attitude that this PTO showed. Plus, until TMS is running a bit more smoothly, I highly doubt POP will be strongly enforcing this contractual agreement.

Plus PokeMom, adding late players is NOT the wrong thing for a PTO to do. Why do you think the software accomodates the ability to add late players? BECAUSE IT HAPPENS!! The ONLY argument here is HOW the players were added. THAT may have messed up the Tiebreakers, nothing else.

Finally, I get a kick of players saying that "because they traveled over 2 hours, the tournament should start on time and run on schedule." Please explain that reasoning to me. What makes your presence at the tournament anymore important than the local players' presence?

PS. Regarding the tiebreakers. If TMS had been used, later players give their opponent 0% resistance points. That's a FAR CRY from the 33% minimum used in DCI Reporter. Once again we see how TMS is flawed (and why some TOs don't use it).

 

[SteveP]

Regarding tiebreakers, we can argue "until the sun stops shining" about why they are bad and how they can sometimes cause problems (i.e, our Lakewood CO CC 15+ winner was crowned using the TMS tiebreaker, even though that same person lost to the person he was tied with). Adding late players WILL influence the tiebreakers, just like intentional draws, concessions, game-loss penalties, un-informed drops, etc...

So,

- adding late players is NOT BAD
- using the tiebreakers (generally speaking) is NOT BAD

and,

- giving late players free unearned wins (byes) is BAD
- using the tiebreakers to crown a champion is BAD (IMO)

 

[farbsman]

So, if registration started at 10am and the tournament started at 11am, you were maybe late TOO Broken Lizard because you decided to show up at 1030am instead of the scheduled 10am registration start.

How was Broken Lizard late? If registration is from 10-11am and he came at 10:30 then he is on time to register.

Regarding the use of DCI-Reporter, although that's contractually wrong, you can't really blame someone for using it when the only current option is a bug-ridden TMS program. If you DO blame that person, you're only mirroring the same kind of "deal with it" attitude that this PTO showed. Plus, until TMS is running a bit more smoothly, I highly doubt POP will be strongly enforcing this contractual agreement.

I haven't had many problems with it. I have the same problems with it as I do DCI when running Magic Tournaments. I wouldn't worry about PUI strongly enforcing it, I would worry about DCI finding out your using it for other tournaments. Since many are posting on message boards that Wizards does visit, it is possible to get banned for 1 year from running DCI sanctioned tournaments for breaking the agreement of using the software. Plus there is always getting sued by its creator who isn't an employee of Wizards and I am told also is on these boards.

Plus PokeMom, adding late players is NOT the wrong thing for a PTO to do. Why do you think the software accomodates the ability to add late players? BECAUSE IT HAPPENS!! The ONLY argument here is HOW the players were added. THAT may have messed up the Tiebreakers, nothing else.

Yes it is wrong. If you let one person do it, you have to let everyone. By doing this, what does it tell the rest of your players? Gee why get up at 10am to register when I can go in at noon and register and still play.

The calling of local players is also wrong. You are suppose to advertise these things. If they are local players they should know when the tournament is. If they don't show up then they don't play. They shouldn't get a phone call from the store reminding them. Would you call the players that live 2 hours away if they didn't show up? I think not, so why show favortism?

PS. Regarding the tiebreakers. If TMS had been used, later players give their opponent 0% resistance points. That's a FAR CRY from the 33% minimum used in DCI Reporter. Once again we see how TMS is flawed (and why some TOs don't use it).

If the tournament is run right, you shouldn't need to use opponent win/loss %. That is completely the wrong way to determine winners. So Joe plays a guy in the first wrong that looses the rest of the day and he ends up loosing first place because of it? Thats really fair. Have the players with the same record play each other, or have a top 8 playoff.

When we do Magic Tournaments, DCI recommends:

If players are tied based on match points, organizers may break the tie in any
manner they feel appropriate, including:
• awarding the prize to the player who lost most recently in the event; and
• splitting prizes between tied players.
(See “Sanctioning & Running BLUE Events is Easy!” for more information about prizes.)

Kind of find it funny they don't recommend using win/loss % for prizes. They only use that in regular swiss matches, not age modified.

 

[farbsman]

Did find something interesting that makes me wonder if PUI used this:

A player’s byes are ignored when computing his or her opponents’ match-win percentage and opponents’ game-win percentage.

 

[SteveP]

If the tournament is run right, you shouldn't need to use opponent win/loss %. That is completely the wrong way to determine winners. So Joe plays a guy in the first wrong that looses the rest of the day and he ends up loosing first place because of it? Thats really fair. Have the players with the same record play each other, or have a top 8 playoff.

huh? Your first sentence doesn't make sense. But, I TOTALLY agree with the rest of the paragraph.

Yes it is wrong. If you let one person do it, you have to let everyone. By doing this, what does it tell the rest of your players? Gee why get up at 10am to register when I can go in at noon and register and still play.

I agree and disagree. Adding a player who is a few minutes late IS OKAY. Adding a very late player is up to the discretion of the TO (but that players SHOULDN'T be given free wins, or byes). Postponing the start of the tournament to wait for more players to arrive is wrong ONLY IF that wait-time is excessive (a subjective call). And, consistantly starting tournaments late is WRONG.

The calling of local players is also wrong. You are suppose to advertise these things. If they are local players they should know when the tournament is. If they don't show up then they don't play. They shouldn't get a phone call from the store reminding them. Would you call the players that live 2 hours away if they didn't show up? I think not, so why show favortism?

Come on now, you're kidding, right? If I'm a TO, I WANT more players. Last minute phone calls were a VERY NICE thing for this PTO to do. Plus, do you really think a last-minute phone call to a player living 2 hours away would've done any good? I just don't see any favoritism here.

I wouldn't worry about PUI strongly enforcing it, I would worry about DCI finding out your using it for other tournaments.

Is that so? Does DCI restrict Reporter usage to DCI-sanctioned tournaments, or non-sanctioned tournaments using only WOTC products? I didn't know that. If that's so, I suppose that's a valid issue.

How was Broken Lizard late? If registration is from 10-11am and he came at 10:30 then he is on time to register.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[SteveP]

Did find something interesting that makes me wonder if PUI used this:

A player’s byes are ignored when computing his or her opponents’ match-win percentage and opponents’ game-win percentage.

Thanks for bringing this up farbsman. I seem to remember this and will now make sure my own tournament software uses it.

Regarding whether TMS uses this, I don't know (since I don't use TMS). But, it would be an interesting discovery exercise.

 

[farbsman]

[*]After the second round began, the decision was made to add 2 players to the tournament, who had already played in round 1 but who had not been included in the tournament setup (which is extremely odd). Because these players were not entered into the standings until after round 2, there were serious repercussions on pairing and resistances thereafter. The bottom 2 age divisions were affected, and in both of those age divisions the winner was determined among several players with identical records solely on the basis of flawed resistance numbers.

I did finally find the reason for the trouble. Even though DCI reporter shouldn't have been used, DCI reporter says:

Late enrollments are accepted before round 1 has been completed. Four options are available if this is neither a single elimination event nor a format using pods:
1. The late player is paired with the bye or given a regular bye (depending on number of players).
2. The pairing is deleted, the late player enrolled, and round 1 is re-paired.
3. A bye is awarded to the late player.
4. The late player is simply enrolled.
However, very late enrollments after one or more rounds have been completed are accepted if not a Draft, Single Elimination or Team tournament.
If a player is enrolled with one or more awarded byes the corresponding points are assigned.
For completed rounds without awarded byes you are asked if the player should receive a regular bye for this round. If so the bye and the corresponding points are registered.

Since it was the start of round 2, the problems started in the software.

 

[Bigpoppabeatdown]

Finally, I get a kick of players saying that "because they traveled over 2 hours, the tournament should start on time and run on schedule." Please explain that reasoning to me. What makes your presence at the tournament anymore important than the local players' presence?

Steve..... their presence isn't more important than local players....

the time of their presence is what defines importance

unless i had a great reason for it, i'm sure that Meg45 wouldn't delay a tourney so that i could show up...
and i wouldn't expect him to...

i understand that people drive long distances to get to these tourneys and i also understand that driving for hours at night isn't something that i'd like to do.... especially if it could have been avoided if some people weren't biased towards other players....

also, it's those players own fault for not showing up....

the time and date for these things have to have been posted somewhere for weeks and talked about.... so those local kids had ample time to prepare rides and clear their schedules......

i think that those kids were just out of luck and the tourney should start as promptly as humanly possible

 

[SteveP]

Once again, thanks for bring up the "very late enrollment" item.

I'm wondering if the software should allow "very late" players to simply be entered with DNPs (Did Not Plays) for the earlier rounds if they're not given awarded or regular byes. Afterall, the tiebreaker doesn't use byes for the tiebreakers and probably also doesn't use first-round DNPs that DCI Reporter lets happen.

 

[SteveP]

Bigpoppabeatdown, I understand your reasoning. Delaying a tournament to allow local players to arrive appears to show favoritism to some, especially if that delay is excessive. But what's excessive?

Listen, the local players are the "meat and potatos" for local shops. Semi-favoritism is warranted (IMO) since those local players are probably also the shop's primary customers. If you can't see that, then life probably seems unfair to you.

For example, my son didn't make the HS BasketBall team last year due to favoritism. Even though he scored the highest overall on the coach's evaluation point system, because he wasn't in the coach's summer league, he didn't make the team. The coach's subjective decision over-rode his objective evaluation.

Favoritism is just a part of life, and something you have to deal with. Opinions often depend on which side of the favoritism you land.

 

[meganium45]

Favoritism needs to have its boundaries.

I have delayed tourneys for 20 minutes when a players calls and says they are running late due to unforeseeen circs. I NEVER delay a tourney for a player I hope will show up, or that I have to call to show up.

I am one of those players who drives hours to an event, and cannot stand when the start is delayed.

I am also a TO who has had a 12:00 tourney that I was running start at 12:45 due to problems (software, ...)

Every TO likes to have lots of players. It is a matter of pride on this board to look up and see your area doing as well as everyone else.

Please do not hang the TOs, we will make small mistakes, and most of us will correct them when we are wrong. A LOT of work goes on behind the scenes for these events to go off. All of us strive to provide you with the type of events that you would want to come back to again and again...it's just pride.

Talk to you all soon!

M45

 

[dld4a]

in response to Jared (brocken Lizard) I know of atleast one person that did not finish in the top aeight and got prizes. Cory took either ninth or eleventh and got four booosters. Because he "tied for eighth place.

-AXE

 

[Rainbowgym]

Oke how do you thing about this then, because we wanted to send a complain letter to PUI/POP but they are ignoring us ko we didn't.

You call the one organising a Pre-release a PTO.
In our case the Local (National) distributor was the organiser so PTO.
- We had to play best out of 3 in 45 minutes.

- The Head-Judge (employee of the Distributor and in this case also the PTO) did not know how to put a draw in TMS, also the so called skilled judges didn't. He was claiming not knowing the program which is bul because it's already available for months.
And even if you have it only for a week the least you should do as PTO is testing it and know how it works.

- Pairings were so terrible screwed up. 8 years old playing in 15+, 37 years old playing in 11-14. 15+ playing in 10-. We complained about that because it's not fair.
That same PTO/Headjudge found out he had put POP ID"s on the place were the age should be. Very Nice move.
But in one day I became 23 years younger. LOL

- We profs suggested to him to open a new tournament in TMS and put in the data correct. He refused to much work he said. ( I don't agree because if you sit aside for 30 minutes you are set and done, at least when you are really an experienced TO)

- Then we asked him to pair manual if this appeared in the next round. To get players playing at least in their own agegroup. He told me that manual pairing was not possible. I almost wetted my pants about so much unknowlegde. (remember this is our Head OP Manager of the National Distributor).
Then he had a problem because he knew I was able to split/manual pair, but he is not allowed to talk or feel sympati for me because his boss doesn't like me. (I'm that professor who thinks she knows how OP should be done)
He showed some common sense and used his brains, stepped over his boss's aversion and let me explain how to correct things.

Still he didn't learned enough.
At the end someone who played in 11-14 all the time won the 2nd price while he was 15+
A lot of wins were given to the wrong person, so missing point for to much people and missing the boosters belonging to that place.
The judges were giving advantage to their own kids, while there was another judge and in case your own kids have questions you should not go by yourself but try to send someone not having an relationship. (only if this is possible and it was).
D20 dices were not allowed to be used.
And promocards which were promissed were never given. and the Prereleasecard we got during the 3th round of the tournament, we were not allowed to trade that.


So tell me what should be done to this PTO, in my eyes kick him out. But they are the ones claiming that they know everything about OP.
Send another complain to Mr Nack and never get a reply.

 

[Broken Lizard]

So, if registration started at 10am and the tournament started at 11am, you were maybe late TOO Broken Lizard because you decided to show up at 1030am instead of the scheduled 10am registration start..

Wrong. I was on time... actually early. 11:00 was the announced start time.

Also, the scorer can delete the first round, add the late player(s), and enter the actual pairings/results manually. This is time consuming, but is also an option..

I suggested exactly that. He preferred to 'do it the easy way'.

Finally, I a retired military man where schedules NEVER seemed to be hard-fast. They change. That just something you have to deal win in life. If you can't deal with it, you're in for a tough life. JMO.

You should be working for Halliburton! The biggest oxymoron in the world is 'military intelligence'.

I'm a teacher. In the last 13 years I have never once been late for work. I can't be. I make sure I manage the time in my classroom professionally. Neither I nor my students can waltz in late and not be accountable. Perhaps your career (software engineering) allows you extreme flexibility in your time management, but the rest of the world does not work that way.

I have run many Pokémon tournaments. I have never started one more than 20 minutes later than advertised. Most TO's at least make an effort to start close to the advertised time. Not to do so is just irresponsible, because others need to be able to plan. I myself gave up something that morning that I could have easily done had I known that the tourney would begin so late.

Would you, as the TO, show up over an hour late to start your own tourney? If so, I'm sure glad I don't have to play in them!

 

[SteveP]

yah, I hear the "military intelligence" oxymoron joke all the time.

There's a great deal of difference between starting school on time and starting a tournament on time. I commend those TOs who start their tournaments on time and turn away all late comers. (sarcasm in my voice) :/

yah, a software engineer generally has LOTS of flexibility with work schedule, mainly because others don't rely on him being at work except for meetings.

Anyway, I'm giving the PTO here the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure he didn't plan on being late, but maybe he just didn't plan well. I don't know the whole story. Being on time is important. Not turning away players is MORE important IMO. When the two conflict, you know where I stand.

That's all.

 

[Broken Lizard]

One more comment:

The players who were entered late were there before the tourney started. One of them was there before I was. The noninclusion of the 2 players was entirely due to oversight by the TO, not due to player lateness.

In any case, I'm over it.

I do plan to play there again, for states. I just hope that runs more smoothly...