Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Is intentionally scooping moral?

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Otaku said:
So what was one of my concerns again? That is right. Tournaments exist for more than just "having fun", and as such when you scoop you are failing to deliver the match you promise by entering to begin with. The rules allow you to scoop most likely (I don't claim to know this as a fact) because sometimes it will be unavoidable. If someone is suddenly injured or it becomes apparent that illness will keep them from playing, forcing them to play it out would be cruel.

Someone trying to manipulate certain standings in their own favor, or the favor of someone else are in many ways defeating the purpose of the event, unless "playing the system" is considered a legitimate Pokemon skill (and as I have stated, if it is considered that, then this part falls flat).

Then we get to (probably almost non-existent) "nice guy" scoop. First, this still may alter the event outcome as above. Second, if you entered a tournament to play Pokemon, why aren't you playing Pokemon?
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I had gotten bored of this senseless thread but felt the need to return fire due to this post. I've seen your other posts, and although I have not gone through and disected every one of them I respect you and your atittude towards the matter. Your opinion is your own, however I disagree on a couple points you made in this:
You argue that tournaments do not exists just to have fun. I say they exist SOLELY to have fun, it happens that winning is also very fun to do hence the competitive nature (the prizes definitely help) but the main appeal and purpose of any pokemon event is to enjoy yourself. The angry WOTC guy you mentioned I believe was absolutely wrong in his judgement and words to you. If you wanted to go just to get cards, and that is what you found enjoyable it is no one's right to stop you. These things aren't just for the hyper competitive, and you were in no way ruining the event for other people. So what if you were a free win? You had the right to be there and the small changes in structure that the free win caused is not enough of a disruption to demonize you.

As pokemon is geared and advertised as a childrens game I imagine honor and fair-play are a key part of the core morals, hence I don't think that pokemon purposefully made scooping with the intention of "playing the system" as a skill. However no one in this thread is talking about people doing that, we are discussing the "nice guy scoop" as you stated; which is almost 100% of the time the cause of a scoop. Rarely is there malicious intent or former collusion like you seem to imply, but simply friends or relatives being nice to one another. And as for the last quoted sentence of yours, my former point of event goals being determined by each individual player comes in again. No one can (or should) stop a player from playing simply for fun, and when that player comes up against a friend who is actually playing for points that matter to them I see no issue why the casual player should be criticized for his choice in scooping.
 
You scoop unintentionally? I fail to see how that is done. Please fill me in how I can scoop by accident.
 
cabd: I think you just found the one point I don't have a counterargument for. Especially because I've known people who have actually done that, literally scooping up their cards and losing because they thought the match was already over. Extra painful if they thought they had just won and now lost because the game state couldn't be repaired. >_<

The Ralts: I thank you for explaining your stance. I do recall people complaining about "playing the system" (other than myself) earlier in the thread. Even without the "nice guy" aspect or the "Scooping is freedom!" crowd, there really have been a few other aspects on this thread, though sadly it is far too easy to miss. There are (or at least have been) players who not only belong to Pokemon "Teams", but actually think it is a Team Sport, and thus they try to manipulate things to their own end. Scooping to play with the standings is an option for them, but mostly you hear about the ones who win/lose quickly scouting the ongoing matches for intel and relaying it to others.

How successful they are at manipulating the events is certainly not established, but as long as it remains a reasonable possibility, I feel it merits discussion. "Reasonable" being ill defined, that can result in two people completely disagreeing and having equally strong evidence to support their respective stances. I weigh it against how difficult it would be to do versus how much gain it could generate. The best players I know understand the rankings system so well that asking them to calculate the impact of scooping to a friend or teammate to load the finals is like asking them the odds of drawing a card in their opening hand: they have at least a rough idea if not actual, accurate numbers.

Nothing says it is being done regularly, or even infrequently. I've not even directly encountered it, but I have encountered some similar situations. Completely anecdotal for readers, and barely "evidence" even for me. XD

We view tournaments differently, and quite frankly which of us is correct depends upon TPC's views, so I won't sweat it, and view running things like the "it really is just about fun" to be erring on the side of caution if it isn't the right approach (if it is the right approach... it is the right approach. XD). Like I said, I am not arguing for prohibiting the option of scooping, just asking people really think about it when they do it, and when at all possible not do it of their own free will.
 
Freze said:
I didn't even read the thread I just posted it because I randomly thought of it. I'm not gonna read a thread worse than the declumping thread.
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It is good when people confess to ignoring netiquette (if not board rules). I mean, look at what you just admitted to. Isn't that a major reason why these threads get so long? How much easier would it have been for those posters trying to really discuss it if people chose to restrain themselves and post only when informed.
 
Honestly, I'm pretty much the poster boy for intentional scooping. I built my team(Team Busted) for exclusively this purpose. Everyone on my team would always scoop to me. Also to each other, when the situation was fitting( if one person had a 6-0 vs a 5-1, or one persons deck countered the other decks in the field), and even to other people.( tiebreakers) At its glorious best my team would have 6 people enter a tournament with the intention of helping me win. Literally it got to the point where there would be a 25 man tournament, 5 rounds swiss, cut to top 4, and I would only have to "play" 3 swiss rounds then top would be me and three teammates.

It seems illogical that players would play without the intention of ever winning, always playing the second chair. However, I owned all the cards, I built and tested all the decks so they had the advantage of not having to do any real work outside the tournaments. In addition any packs we won were pooled then sold with all profits split evenly, and travel allowances we used for nationals gas and hotel expenses. In the end it worked out for everyone on the team. The problem was with the people who weren't on the team.

While most people were accepting or a least tolerant of what we were doing there were a few who really didn't like it. The problem was that my team had only solid players on it, overall top 5 players in my area would probably have included 3 players from my team. So the other good players wouldn't care because they would still make cut consistently. The casual players, parents, and players with no expectation of top cutting didn't care because the result wasn't too important to them. The people who really had a problem with it were those fringe players. You know ones who are not that great players, but put significant effort into the game to make them think that they should be top-cutting fairly consistently. What we did really hurts those players a lot because they'll pretty much never make cut. Overall over our almost 4 year run we've probably made 5-10 people quit or not want to travel to our area. Eventually people complained and we we're warned by our PTO for collusion. So we became more discreet and didn't outright scoop, people would just play terribly against each other. That worked just as well and seemed to upset people less. And with the people who opposed us quitting things worked out smoothly for us.

In terms of ethics is what we did wrong? Yea it pretty much was, it's hard to defend our actions considering how we screwed the player base up. Was it legal under the rules? Honestly I don't know. The rules say you're allowed to scoop at any time for any reason, but I can see the other side of the argument too. Why did we do it? $Profit$, LOLZ, to dominate our area.

That being said if scooping happens every now and then between friends, or the "nice guy scenario," then it's really not a big deal. Not any action that impacts others negatively should be considered immoral. For example, Driving hurts the environment, however, most reasonable people will not tell you its immoral to drive. On the other side what my team did was more like taking a fleet of hummers and driving them around with the intent to destroy the environment.
 
i wouldnt screw a friend out of a worlds invite if i had no shot at mine but on the other hand someone i dont know or hate id gladly take that invite away
 
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