Otaku
Active Member
Unfortunately yes I am prone to arguing a point for arguments sake. Some of this is me being a bit obstinate, but some of it is also seeking better understanding. If someone is confident s/he has the correct conclusion but I am challenging the point, maybe the reasoning behind it is flawed, or maybe there is a communication issue.
As a reminder (or notification for some), my experience spans the life of the game but I have not competitively played in all formats. The earliest periods of the game have been learned about by study and play-testing long after the fact. I was forced to take a hiatus from even my usual sideline activities (save some Pre-Releases) and missed most of the 2008-2009 format through all but the last few months of the 2010-2011 format. Please be very specific when referencing this time.
I have been trying to cut back on the length of my posts. I've re-written this one repeatedly, but now I've sunk far, far too much time into it, so since you're reading it, I determined it was worth posting this response even if it was not perfect and unfortunately even though it is long.
Gamester2488 is a returning player, so I fully expect I have to explain a lot of concepts (and have tried in my posts directed initially towards him). With him I am often "restating" things I posted earlier in this thread, or on similar threads over this entire format. When more experienced players act like I have to explain how "what is, is", it gets frustrating. I realize I often garble my points, but if you have questions, please ask questions, not make accusations. I know that again is a bad habit I share in, but that doesn't make it right for me or anyone else. :thumb:
1) The Bench is supposed to be "safer" than the Active slot, but evaluating the game's history and mechanics leads me to conclude that is is most definitely not meant to be an impregnable fortress. Decks are supposed to have the option of running cards that allow Pokémon on the Bench to be attacked. Spread, sniping, and position changing cards are all legitimate, provided they are adequately priced.
2) Pokémon Catcher is adequately priced in terms of game mechanics (resale is another matter). You expend an Item to simply force the Benched Pokémon of your choice Active. The rest of the format makes this overpowered, but in the hierarchy of "broken" cards, it is close to the bottom. Since I have at length in other threads and private discussions tried to come up with an adequate, balanced alternative and have failed, it seems unproductive to dwell on a powerful, important card who's status as "broken" is more a symptom than the disease.
3) Ultimately, cards are not broken, formats are. Any card can be made balanced, broken, or "junk" with the correct cards. Real problem cards are those that are broken or junk without ridiculously specialized format. Pokémon Catcher is not one of those cards. It just requires a format where OHKOs are not common at least during the first few turns.
4) Examine what happens without Pokémon Catcher but with this card pool: most Evolutions still suffer. While some can be written off as being "junk" filler that requires too much effort to make viable, a good junk are still "bad" because you'll have to rely on lucky match-ups to start with your preferred opener to survive aggressive decks. You aren't getting a significant net gain (if any gain) in "playable" cards; you'll just shuffle some around between "broken", "balanced", and "junk".
5) Formats built around OHKOs and 2HKOs are fast. They have been "standard" the last few formats, which is where a working history of the game (and lacking that, examining the game and testing the mechanics) comes into play. If Stage 1 Pokémon need two turns to get set-up and Stage 2 Pokémon need three, Basic Pokémon that start attacking (even just lightly) first turn become an issue, even before damage boosting effects or Energy acceleration.
6) We've had formats where Evolution was sped up... this didn't level the playing field, it just reversed the situation; Basic Pokémon were usually window dressing or only run to Evolve and you still had decks getting "cheap wins" because a player could now go aggressive first/second turn with a sped-up Evolution instead of a fast, aggressive Basic Pokémon. More cards used, same lack of diversity and balance.
7) We've had formats where in general the Bench was hard to disrupt. This didn't level the playing field but just reversed the situation (deja vu). Instead of being focused on fielding several big, Basic Pokémon with the emphasis on the Active, the emphasis was on what Bench-sitter to run as the focus of the deck, while the beatstick it would use as a weapon (hence the term) was the main source of variance. Same stagnation, same imbalance, just in a slightly different flavor.
8) Most formats have an Item for disrupting the Bench. Exact potency varied, but it was there. Don't think that an "inferior" Pokémon Catcher wasn't sometimes as powerful as Pokémon Catcher; actual card pool matters. Some formats did have had another mechanic picking up the slack (usually strong sniping or Pokémon Power/Poké-Power based).
Actual Modified seasons at a glance have had:
Pre-Modified: Gust of Wind, Warp Point, Double Gust.
2001-2002: Warp Point, Double Gust
2002-2003: Double Gust, Pokémon Reversal, Cyclone Energy
2003-2004: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2004-2005: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Pow! Hand Extension
2005-2006: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Pow! Hand Extension
2006-2007: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2007-2008: [DEL]Pokémon Reversal[/DEL], Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2008-2009: [DEL]Pokémon Reversal[/DEL], Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+
2009-2010: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+, Pokémon Circulator
2010-2011: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+, Pokémon Circulator
2011-2012: Pokémon Reversal, Pokémon Catcher, Pokémon Circulator
2012-2013: Pokémon Catcher, Escape Rope (eventually)
9)[DEL] Pokémon Reversal is important to note; it was legal from 2003 to 2012 (barring potential gaps early or mid format). People didn't really complain about it until it we got a format similar to what he have... where it became "'Tails' fails, but 'heads' means attack and take a Prize."[/DEL]
Pokémon Reversal is important to note; it became legal in the twilight months of 2002-2003 format (Neon Modified, the last under WotC), and from there remained legal until the close of the 2006-2007 (DX-On) season. It did not return to the game until being reprinted in HeartGold/SoulSilver, which was late in the 2009-2010 (Diamond & Pearl through HS: Unleashed) format, where it remained legal until the 2011-2012 (HS-On) format close.
During its time while legal, it was frequently over shadowed, but rose to irritating prominence last format (its last legal format so far) until Pokémon Catcher resumed the tradition of overshadowing Pokémon Reversal. It took a format where it was the best option, could be spammed, and we had decks that set-up quickly and hit hard enough to score OHKOs to "break" Pokémon Reversal.
My apologies for my record keeping error!
10) I'll also mention that the formats where cards like Pokémon Reversal weren't heavily run and weren't outclassed by something else (Pow! Hand Extension or Pokémon Catcher) usually were outclassed by Pokémon. Blaziken ex (EX: Team Aqua Vs Team Magma 89/95) is the oldest example I can think of for a sniping Pokémon that existing in a format where it could attack turn after turn and was prominent.
If you look at the scan, remember it was hitting for 100 points of damage in a format where the max HP on non-Pokémon-ex was 120 (Basic or Evolution) and only Evolved Pokémon-ex broke the 120 mark (and not always). There were also Pokémon that provided reusable effects that outclassed the Items available.
In both cases, this kept the Bench from being "too safe", but at the price of elevating decks built around such cards to the upper levels of competitive play. So decks needing to keep the Bench safe still suffered, but so did decks that couldn't work in such Pokémon; this is as opposed to now where it would be just the former (few decks would skip Pokémon Catcher, if any, unless for lack of copies).
tl;dr: I may debate a lot of points and enjoy it, and even if I agree with something I will challenge it sometimes because having the right conclusion but the wrong reasoning leads to a lot of problems. Pokémon Catcher is far too powerful in this format, but for the most part it is the format's fault and cutting Pokémon Catcher will cause about as many problems as it would solve. The notion that the Bench is truly "safe" does not reflect the reality of the game. Lastly, I hear a lot of people suggesting we do what didn't work or only partially worked in the past, instead of exploring a true "fix".
As a reminder (or notification for some), my experience spans the life of the game but I have not competitively played in all formats. The earliest periods of the game have been learned about by study and play-testing long after the fact. I was forced to take a hiatus from even my usual sideline activities (save some Pre-Releases) and missed most of the 2008-2009 format through all but the last few months of the 2010-2011 format. Please be very specific when referencing this time.
I have been trying to cut back on the length of my posts. I've re-written this one repeatedly, but now I've sunk far, far too much time into it, so since you're reading it, I determined it was worth posting this response even if it was not perfect and unfortunately even though it is long.
Gamester2488 is a returning player, so I fully expect I have to explain a lot of concepts (and have tried in my posts directed initially towards him). With him I am often "restating" things I posted earlier in this thread, or on similar threads over this entire format. When more experienced players act like I have to explain how "what is, is", it gets frustrating. I realize I often garble my points, but if you have questions, please ask questions, not make accusations. I know that again is a bad habit I share in, but that doesn't make it right for me or anyone else. :thumb:
1) The Bench is supposed to be "safer" than the Active slot, but evaluating the game's history and mechanics leads me to conclude that is is most definitely not meant to be an impregnable fortress. Decks are supposed to have the option of running cards that allow Pokémon on the Bench to be attacked. Spread, sniping, and position changing cards are all legitimate, provided they are adequately priced.
2) Pokémon Catcher is adequately priced in terms of game mechanics (resale is another matter). You expend an Item to simply force the Benched Pokémon of your choice Active. The rest of the format makes this overpowered, but in the hierarchy of "broken" cards, it is close to the bottom. Since I have at length in other threads and private discussions tried to come up with an adequate, balanced alternative and have failed, it seems unproductive to dwell on a powerful, important card who's status as "broken" is more a symptom than the disease.
3) Ultimately, cards are not broken, formats are. Any card can be made balanced, broken, or "junk" with the correct cards. Real problem cards are those that are broken or junk without ridiculously specialized format. Pokémon Catcher is not one of those cards. It just requires a format where OHKOs are not common at least during the first few turns.
4) Examine what happens without Pokémon Catcher but with this card pool: most Evolutions still suffer. While some can be written off as being "junk" filler that requires too much effort to make viable, a good junk are still "bad" because you'll have to rely on lucky match-ups to start with your preferred opener to survive aggressive decks. You aren't getting a significant net gain (if any gain) in "playable" cards; you'll just shuffle some around between "broken", "balanced", and "junk".
5) Formats built around OHKOs and 2HKOs are fast. They have been "standard" the last few formats, which is where a working history of the game (and lacking that, examining the game and testing the mechanics) comes into play. If Stage 1 Pokémon need two turns to get set-up and Stage 2 Pokémon need three, Basic Pokémon that start attacking (even just lightly) first turn become an issue, even before damage boosting effects or Energy acceleration.
6) We've had formats where Evolution was sped up... this didn't level the playing field, it just reversed the situation; Basic Pokémon were usually window dressing or only run to Evolve and you still had decks getting "cheap wins" because a player could now go aggressive first/second turn with a sped-up Evolution instead of a fast, aggressive Basic Pokémon. More cards used, same lack of diversity and balance.
7) We've had formats where in general the Bench was hard to disrupt. This didn't level the playing field but just reversed the situation (deja vu). Instead of being focused on fielding several big, Basic Pokémon with the emphasis on the Active, the emphasis was on what Bench-sitter to run as the focus of the deck, while the beatstick it would use as a weapon (hence the term) was the main source of variance. Same stagnation, same imbalance, just in a slightly different flavor.
8) Most formats have an Item for disrupting the Bench. Exact potency varied, but it was there. Don't think that an "inferior" Pokémon Catcher wasn't sometimes as powerful as Pokémon Catcher; actual card pool matters. Some formats did have had another mechanic picking up the slack (usually strong sniping or Pokémon Power/Poké-Power based).
Actual Modified seasons at a glance have had:
Pre-Modified: Gust of Wind, Warp Point, Double Gust.
2001-2002: Warp Point, Double Gust
2002-2003: Double Gust, Pokémon Reversal, Cyclone Energy
2003-2004: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2004-2005: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Pow! Hand Extension
2005-2006: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Pow! Hand Extension
2006-2007: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2007-2008: [DEL]Pokémon Reversal[/DEL], Warp Point, Cyclone Energy
2008-2009: [DEL]Pokémon Reversal[/DEL], Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+
2009-2010: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+, Pokémon Circulator
2010-2011: Pokémon Reversal, Warp Point, Cyclone Energy, Poké-Blower+, Pokémon Circulator
2011-2012: Pokémon Reversal, Pokémon Catcher, Pokémon Circulator
2012-2013: Pokémon Catcher, Escape Rope (eventually)
9)[DEL] Pokémon Reversal is important to note; it was legal from 2003 to 2012 (barring potential gaps early or mid format). People didn't really complain about it until it we got a format similar to what he have... where it became "'Tails' fails, but 'heads' means attack and take a Prize."[/DEL]
Pokémon Reversal is important to note; it became legal in the twilight months of 2002-2003 format (Neon Modified, the last under WotC), and from there remained legal until the close of the 2006-2007 (DX-On) season. It did not return to the game until being reprinted in HeartGold/SoulSilver, which was late in the 2009-2010 (Diamond & Pearl through HS: Unleashed) format, where it remained legal until the 2011-2012 (HS-On) format close.
During its time while legal, it was frequently over shadowed, but rose to irritating prominence last format (its last legal format so far) until Pokémon Catcher resumed the tradition of overshadowing Pokémon Reversal. It took a format where it was the best option, could be spammed, and we had decks that set-up quickly and hit hard enough to score OHKOs to "break" Pokémon Reversal.
My apologies for my record keeping error!
10) I'll also mention that the formats where cards like Pokémon Reversal weren't heavily run and weren't outclassed by something else (Pow! Hand Extension or Pokémon Catcher) usually were outclassed by Pokémon. Blaziken ex (EX: Team Aqua Vs Team Magma 89/95) is the oldest example I can think of for a sniping Pokémon that existing in a format where it could attack turn after turn and was prominent.
If you look at the scan, remember it was hitting for 100 points of damage in a format where the max HP on non-Pokémon-ex was 120 (Basic or Evolution) and only Evolved Pokémon-ex broke the 120 mark (and not always). There were also Pokémon that provided reusable effects that outclassed the Items available.
In both cases, this kept the Bench from being "too safe", but at the price of elevating decks built around such cards to the upper levels of competitive play. So decks needing to keep the Bench safe still suffered, but so did decks that couldn't work in such Pokémon; this is as opposed to now where it would be just the former (few decks would skip Pokémon Catcher, if any, unless for lack of copies).
tl;dr: I may debate a lot of points and enjoy it, and even if I agree with something I will challenge it sometimes because having the right conclusion but the wrong reasoning leads to a lot of problems. Pokémon Catcher is far too powerful in this format, but for the most part it is the format's fault and cutting Pokémon Catcher will cause about as many problems as it would solve. The notion that the Bench is truly "safe" does not reflect the reality of the game. Lastly, I hear a lot of people suggesting we do what didn't work or only partially worked in the past, instead of exploring a true "fix".
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