Is the current format the worst ever?

[pokepuzzle]

Why would it be a horrible card? Is it because you can't find a way to play it? It's a card that has great potential.

You make me excited vaporeon :wink:

 

[ShadowGuard]

Why would it be a horrible card? Is it because you can't find a way to play it? It's a card that has great potential.

Because it does 120 for 4 while needing a precondition. Just because someone can find a way to play it doesn't mean it's good.

To compare, Haxorus NVI does 120 for 3 colorless energy without a precondition, and it has no weakness.
If you play Gardevoir, you'd better go for Gothitelle which does 110 for the same energy, also without a precondition, and locks trainers.

Once again, a ban list wouldn't help. Not a bit.
Changing the rules back and printing the right cards in future would.

 

[Gamester2488]

Disclaimer - I honestly believe proper game design is achieved when players have "feelings" that are apparently very vague. Feelings are important, as if players aren't "feeling" satisfied, the game designer has failed his player base. End disclaimer.

First, I am merely making an argument for those that say this is the worst format ever, and why some people are making points that I don't entirely agree with. I honestly have no opinion on whether this is the worst or not, because I've played so many TCG's with awful formats, that I can be pretty assured this is not the worst in any game ever. That being said, let me try to explain a little different what I was trying to say, because I think people are still missing my point. FOR THE RECORD, anything I post regarding specific cards that are or are not viable are literally just open a set list and find an interesting card that is unplayable because of the way the format is... Not a card that I personally ever have any intention of playing.

What you guys think I'm saying, I believe, is that I think that any pokemon should be viable. I disagree. I do not believe EVERY pokemon should be viable. What I believe is that I should have the ability to play ANY pokemon card, and reasonable expect to actually be able to attack once with it within any given game. I'm not saying that I should be able to win with this card, but the fact that the few "best cards" in the format right now literally make it impossible for anyone to play anything except the BDIF or very metagame oriented anti-cards and be "in the game." I'm calling for toning down the power creep so that more cards can give players a sense of false security while playing things out of the norm. Those cards should not be able to win. They should however be able to give the player playing them a false sense of security so they feel like even if just for a little while, they are in the game. Instead, the Big Basic phenomenon creates a game state where on turn one if you aren't playing a BDIF or a very select few fringe decks, you already feel overwhelmed and as though you aren't actually going to ever get to use that sweet card you put in your deck.

Essentially cards should be allowed to be played without being elbowed out on turn one by the Big Basics. I should be able to feel as though the Gigalith (EP) in my deck will actually get one activation of Shear and then attack with Rock Bullet one time before it's fainted. However, in the current format, I can start with my Roggenrola and my opponent starts with their Tornados EX and suddenly I don't even get the opportunity to evolve and attack, because I'm donked on turn one. Instead, toning down Tornados EX a bit will allow me to have the sense of security that I will be able to Shear once and attack at least once with my Gigalith before it's knocked out. There is a difference between playable and trash, and pokemon doesn't have an in between. Everything is either playable or trash because the best cards are heads and shoulders above the rest of the cards in the format.

Next, regarding what is made up in the metagame, yes, 100% of the format is made up pokemon cards. Imagine, if every single deck in the format right now had the same 60 cards. 100% of the metagame would still be made up of pokemon cards. Is that healthy? So, your sarcasm is not appreciated.

That out of the way, lets examine the metagame. Now I didn't want to invest too much time into this, but I guess I have nothing better to do while I wait for my family get together tonight...

The relative metagame currently (i.e, decks that have won cities more than one time) has 10 decks that have done well. This is according to sixprizes.com which gets it's information from pokegym.net. Those decks are:

Landorus/Mewtwo 14W 49 Top Cut (Big Basic)
Blastoise/Keldeo 11W 48 Top Cut (Big Basic + Acceleration)

After these, it drops off.... what does that tell you about the metagame? Not that it's healthy...

Darkrai/Stuff 8W 22 Top Cut (Big Basic)
Mewtwo/Eels 7W 23 Top Cut (Big Basic + Acceleration)
Hammertime 6W 18 Top Cut (Big Basic)
Ho-Oh 6W 21Top Cut (Big Basic + Acceleration)
Darkrai/Hydreigon 6W 38 Top Cut (Big Basic + Manipulation/Acceleration)
RayEels 5/14 (Big Basic + Acceleration)
Darkrai/Landorus (Big Basic)
Mewtwo/Terakion (Big Basic)

So, what do all these decks have in common. They are designed to win the game with a Big Basic pokemon. So, breaking down the metagame into strategies (Please, do not confuse different pokemon in different decks as being actually different. If I played Emboar and Entei EX, would that legitimately be built differently than Blastoise/Keldeo EX? Other than the pokemon used, no, the decks are identical in general strategy. Use acceleration, put them on a big attacker, charge! So, we can break down the metagame into the following strategies:

Big Basic + Acceleration
Big Basic

There is not really anything showing me that the format is healthy because if you aren't playing acceleration, then you are playing big basics. All of these decks are set up on turn one because they don't have the drawback of having to evolve, OR, they are set up on turn two because they use energy acceleration to have their big basic attacker set up on turn two... Without using one of these two strategies, what else can possibly compete? Niche decks, like 4x Sigilyph or Empoleon, have the ability to compete, while filling niche roles in the metagame, but they don't create space in the format. I can't play Reuiclus (BW) because pretty much every Big Basic attacker will either OHKO me or knock me out on turn 2 before I ever have an opportunity to use Psywave and my ability one time even. Now, if the format was even one turn slower, I would get to use Psywave and Damage Swap in the game, but now, if I want to play this card I'm worried about it getting Donked off my bench with Catcher, or not even getting it set up... Changing this card to make it give players a sense of security while playing it shouldn't be a requirement. I should be able to play this card and feel safe that I might get to use it in a given game. I'm not calling for this card to be competitive, nor am I saying that every card should be "viable," but creating a sense of security, even if its a fake sense of security, is important to foster growth. If players constantly feel constrained to the meta, formats get stale because innovation stops. The big Basic phenomenon has nudged out other cards from the format, and you CANNOT play cards like Reuniclus safely because those kind of cards can't survive even one turn in this format. This is a problem.

Best post supporting this so far is this one by Trainer Hez:

I actually get where you're coming from, the last time I think this was possible was D&P. As long as something wasn't complete junk you could pick a rare and attempt to build around it and do at least ok. The difference between the ok and the awesome cards was a little smaller, sometimes even subtle. Like, the 3 D&P starters were all decent, it turned out Empoleon was the best of the 3... but you wouldn't get curb stomped if you tried playing one of the other 2. I think the original ex series was even more like this. Of course in the top tournaments there'd be a few tier 1 decks that had proven themselves and the odd few different rogue decks (not just rogue builds, complete decks), but at League you'd see all sorts of things and plenty of them would be doing fine with all 3 stages of Pokemon, ex and normal, all making significant appearances!

People keep saying, "but the B&W legendary Pokemon ARE balanced, look there's 5 or so different ones all in the top tier". Well yeh, they're balanced with each other, but totally overpowered otherwise. The meta may have a "balance" but the design itself is poor. To go back the the old Magic analogies, it'd make no sense if they just started printing 5/5s at 1 Mana... and 5/5s at 5 Mana. One requires less resources to use and so of course shouldn't be as good... that's basic game design. The players could still play such a game and grind a "balanced" meta out of it just using the new 1 mana guys (and binning 90% of other creatures, sound familiar?) but I think most Magic players would quit in such a situation just in disgust of the poor design involved. Just say we went to B+W on as soon as it came out (i.e. no Primes around) I think Reshiram and Zekrom would have been just fine as EXs compared to the rest of the game, perhaps +10hp and attack and you're good to go.

Zekrom gets used as an ex in the 150 format and I still groan whenever it hits the table...

To me, allowing players to feel like they can play with cool and interesting cards is more important then actually letting them. Who cares if the player actually wins with his cool combo, the fact that he gets to play the cool combo is whats important.

Like I said, feelings are important.

Now, specific responses...

I fail to see what is wrong with this. It's an extremely good card that demands an answer. Mewtwo is not the only answer to Mewtwo - smart play and prize denial can overcome it, too, though admittedly not as effectively.

You miss my point. Mewtwo EX prevents deck building growth. You either play Mewtwo EX, or you play an answer to it. Every single deck can run it. Every single deck should run it if they don't have a better answer to it. If you don't run it, or you don't run an answer to it, chances are, you will never be in any game in this format.

I don't know what you mean by "pick up some random stage 2". You should never be able to just pick up a random card of any stage or type, including EX, and expect to do well with it. The game is supposed to take some level of competence, planning, and awareness of metagame in order to do well.

I think you also misunderstand the meaning of "rogue". A rogue deck is one that is designed to defeat the decks that are doing well. They are made by surprise and innovation. I'm not going to say that PCL doesn't design rogues into the format, but I will say that the idea that you should "expect" to come up with one and do well automatically shows some level of ignorance as to how they are actually made and how they actually work.

I don't actually believe I should be able to pick up any card and expect to do well with it. I expect that I should be able to pick up any rare and build a deck around it, and that I should be able to actually play the game, instead of just get pubstomped out of every round. Yes, I should probably lose every round. But I should be able to play the game instead of just getting crushed on turn 2 by Darkspears on a pokemon that is practically unkillable. I should be able to use every resource I have an realistically expect to get close to knocking out their Darkrai. Feel accomplished you know? Instead, in this format if you aren't playing a BDIF, you are just going to get pubstomped out of the game.

Actually, I think you misunderstand the meaning of Rogue. If you really believe that Rogue deck HAS to be designed to beat the best deck in the format, then you've been doing it wrong. Rogue decks are decks that are not clearly defined within the meta. They aren't "tier" decks, they are simply decks that people play because they want to flex their deck building muscle. If nobody played Keldeo EX/Blastoise, then someone shows up at your cities and plays the deck for the first time, and it's never been seen before, it's rogue. If 100 people start playing it, it's no longer a rogue deck and instead is part of the metagame because it's a deck you should either prepare for, or know what your game plan against is.

Rogue - A rogue deck is a deck that uses a strategy that is unfamiliar and unexpected within it's format.
A good rogue deck will be built with the meta in mind, but a rogue deck does not actually have to be built to counter the meta. This is a fact based on the definition of the word rogue within TCGs. This is a definition that is common across all TCG's and that I am very familiar with, so I can assure you, I understand what Rogue means.

The thing about Pokemon vs Magic is that the power gap between "okay" and "bad" in Magic is more fluid than Pokemon's. I don't mind either way, but it is certainly sad that there is no chance that the modified-legal Glaceon right now could do anything, for example. But it's not impossible to build a zany deck and do well. I DID build a moderately successful Glaceon MD + Froslass AR deck for a while that was purely just because I like Ice-types, even though there's not much redeeming about either of those cards.

I also had a positive record at an extremely large BR (that is, 4-3) with a tri-Hydreigon deck focused around the Consume attack. That was actually hysterical, and has cemented in my mind that this format certainly can be played "for fun" as long as you know what you're doing.

You can't do that in this format. The difference between good and bad is actually gargantuan, and that is where I think the design failed and why people think this format is bad. If you played this Hydreigon deck right now, where do you think you'd end up? I don't think you'd top cut, but I can't be certain. This is just based on everything that I've read regarding the format.

Trust me, SP was just as bad... you couldn't build a deck that relied on Uxie drops (which most everything did). And let's not talk about one of my poor friends who was traumatized when he made a beautiful anti-meta deck that he absolutely adored to play... and whose entire premise was shattered when someone said "What do you do about Dialga G Lv. X?"

I didn't play during SP and have no idea what the format looked like so I won't comment.

Pokemon is doing this, in a different way - by inventing decks like Ninetales/Amoonguss and Garchomp/Altaria that just don't work here, but have enough competitive merit that they SEEM like they SHOULD, and you will certainly win a game or two with them. But the primary Pokemon interest just doesn't seem to be in providing a competitive card game. Our precon decks are just awful, and that seems really telling to me that they don't care for beginners that much. Hopefully that makes sense.

This. Garchomp/Altaria FEELS like it should work. This is a deck that fits what I believe is missing in the design space. I can play it and FEEL like I'm doing things, when realistically I'm not going to win very often. I can realistically expect to set up at least once or twice in a tournament, and when I do watch out! I'm going to be having tons of fun until your better deck beats me... but I got to have fun doing what I set out to do, and not play a meta deck. This format really prevents that from happening though.

2. You are misclassifying 80% of the format. They are all centered around Basic Pokemon as attackers, but that does not make them the same deck, nor does that make the selection of decks stale or boring. That is poor perception on the part of the player.

They are the same deck though. Those decks are just interchanging their attackers to try to gain an edge against what attacker they expect the most people to be playing. Do you play Landorous EX in a field full of Tornados EX? So you have to metagame your Big Basic and pick the one that is best against Tornados EX. You are still playing the same deck. You are just changing what "core" you fit into your deck. Are you on the Lando plan this tournament? Better get your hammers. Is it the Tornados plan? Asperta Gyms and Eviolites amirte??! Oh, by the way, I'm playing Ho-Oh and these cards are interchangeable in this acceleration deck. Oh, I'm on Darkrai stuffs today? Do I want to play Mewtwo's or Hammers or Hydreigons? I'm still on Darkrai, but what do I want to do with my shell?

The decks are the same. You have the same shell, it's just the last few cards you swap in and out week to week based on what you expect to face.


I've typed a ton and I have some things to do, so I guess I'll respond more later, I know a ton of people don't like what I had to say, so I want to get to some serious discussion. I think it would be healthy to foster this kind of discussion because it allows players to get insight into how the formats are defined and what is considered acceptable. When this happened in magic last, the community banded together and developed some sweet teams that started redefining stale formats.


OH, edit real quick.

Someone said something about the original format and Haymaker being better than Charizard.dec. Obviously, in a vacuum this is true. Everybody knows this. Charizard was actually an awful card. It didn't have a niche place in the format. But Haymaker had counters. Raindance was a fine deck, Venasaur decks were okay, Alakazam saw some play, etc. Do the Wave was an evolution deck, then Potpourri was a thing. You actually had options, and beyond the trainers, every deck wasn't just the same strategy. Here, you have a bunch of "decks" that are all basically the same concept, fast, big basic attackers. It's just the attacker you are using is going to change 4-6 cards in the deck. Otherwise, they're pretty much all the same deck.

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

Scolipede wouldn't be useful even if EXs were banned. It's a horrible card.

Even with Exs gone, still bad. But with legendary Basics knocked down to a sensible size and a certain Trainer (so broken it's not been printed since Base) gone too... it's alright, you could build around a card like that (add Virbank, PHB etc) to maybe win some locals and have some fun... not just get stomped on as it would now in any situation.

It's funny someone mentioned Meloetta though. Yes it would waste Scolipede but right now it's still kinda bad. In the imaginary "fixed Basics, no Catcher" format it's pretty good. I'd say Meloetta is what a strong Basic should look like, Psychic can deal big damage for just one energy to easily take out a Stage 2 like Scolipede, but with just 80hp it's gonna get revenged. That's called balance, you get something good, really cheap but you gotta deal with a drawback.

People keep comparing now to Base era format which is correct in some ways in terms of how the meta played out, but even then the Pokemon were more balanced with each other. Side by side no Basic is strictly better than a normal Stage 2. They had worse hp and weaker attacks, it's just that being Basic is a huge advantage in itself, they didn't even need to be as good as evos to dominate the meta.

EDIT: Woah 2 new posts in the time it took me I'll have to read them another day, Christmas eve and all

 

[vaporeon]

Because it does 120 for 4 while needing a precondition. Just because someone can find a way to play it doesn't mean it's good.

To compare, Haxorus NVI does 120 for 3 colorless energy without a precondition, and it has no weakness.
If you play Gardevoir, you'd better go for Gothitelle which does 110 for the same energy, also without a precondition, and locks trainers.

Once again, a ban list wouldn't help. Not a bit.
Changing the rules back and printing the right cards in future would.

A ban list would help. If for one format they choose to not rotate, they could just make a ban list and restrict or ban cards that unbalance the format. Ace Specs in my opinion is a bad mechanic and would be better then a ban list but Ace Spec and a ban list can work together. While I dont think catcher is Ace Spec worthy, restricting it to 2 per deck would be fine and would allow for more balance cards like Escape Rope to be used. The only other card in this format I think should be banned is Mewtwo EX because of how it unbalances the game.

A ban/restriction list can work. They work for other games and can work for Pokemon too.

 

[Otaku]

I know of two cards "made" for Basics: Eviolite, and Skyarrow.

I think you missed Prism Energy. Something else to recall is that the natural advantages Basic Pokémon enjoy can make a card not specifically designed for them more useful for them. I don't recall any non-Pokémon-specific search effect in this format that targets only Evolutions; since Basic Pokémon already enjoy the benefit of being self-contained, they have greater synergy with many search cards.

Now compare and contrast this with support cards that are specifically for Evolutions this format; how many are there and how potent are they? Basic Pokémon do seem to be favored. Please note the support I want to see for Evolving Pokémon is their lower Stages generating enough advantage to compensate for Evolutions requiring more time and more card slots. I am not trying to claim that the format is filled with cards that only favor Basic Pokémon, but when I saw Prism Energy being forgotten, I decided to go ahead and bring it up.

The former has a countercard: Tool Scrapper. The latter is countered by its own mechanic; play a counterstadium such as Aspertia, Virbank, Tropical Beach (which arguably benefits evolutions more), Pokemon Center, or Twist Mountain.

I apologize for not having the text that this quote is directly referencing handy. I have to disagree with Kayle's assessment here. Tool Scrapper doesn't balance out most Pokémon Tools, it counters them all, generically. Thus an extremely potent Pokémon Tool like Eviolite is countered as effectively as other less effective, passive Tools (that is, Tools that are primarily triggered on your own turn).

Skyarrow Bridge is mostly of use on your own turn, thus discarding it right away does not nullify all the advantage it provides. Your opponent merely has to play competently and they will save at least one Energy card from being discarded, as you cannot counter it until your own turn.

Tropical Beach favors slower cards; this includes many Evolved Pokémon, but because their lower Stages aren't as potent as they should be and because so many non-Evolving Pokémon that are competitive right now have inexpensive attacks they can utilize well first turn.

As a final point, let me agree with Kayle on many of the other cards he comments upon, especially Pokémon Catcher; it only "favors" fast decks capable of dealing large amounts of damage. If the damage capacity early game wasn't so high (which contributes to other concerns) then you couldn't use Pokémon Catcher to score a quick OHKO against Evolving Basic Pokémon.

If Evolutions were currently dominant with no other aspect of the game changed (just pretend all the powerful Basic Pokémon we had were never printed)... we probably would just get another three to six major decks. Sounds like a lot, but I just mean most of what we have now would be OHKOed Turn 2, still before it Evolved, by the player going first. I mean, T2 Empoleon in such an environment should be shooting for a 70 point whack!

---------- Post added 12/24/2012 at 05:20 PM ----------

A ban/restriction list can work. They work for other games and can work for Pokemon too.

You repeat this regularly, and others such as myself keep reminding you that they often do not work well. My experience is that they do not work, as the games I have played with Ban Lists usually at best enjoy a month or two of experimentation before replacements for the old "broken" cards are found and things stagnate again. Replacements may be "this card works almost as well as what was Banned" or "Without what was Banned, now a new deck is pwning everything!"

I know you don't want to read this, but please heed my warning; when you ban cards, you're not solving the problems that made them "broken" to begin with.

 

[vaporeon]

^ A ban list would be used for Pokemon as a last ditch effort to keep cards in check. If a game properly uses a ban list. it works. In Pokemon, Mewtwo EX is the only ban worthy card I can think of. You can restrict others deemed too powerful at 4 per deck. This also keeps the card makers within the list so they don't make cards as good as the ones banned or restricted.

 

[Gamester2488]

I agree with whats being said... Basic pokemon that are powerful, like Meloetta, should have a downfall, like 80 HP. Currently, the "healthiest" pokemon in the format are the Big Basic EX's. So, not only do they have more HP than every evolution that is remotely competitive, but they also hit just as hard if not harder than those same pokemon, for equal or less Energy. Is that balance? I don't know much about balance in pokemon, but it seems awkward at best. What's their downfall? You get two prizes when you faint one? Considering they can be hitting hard on turn 1, against a Non-EX deck (not including extreme cases like Sigilyph) they are going to knock out 2-3 pokemon before they get return KO'd, and by then getting another one set up is easy as pie. Not to mention you throw catchers into every deck, good luck actually getting your Stage 2 set up before than EX knocks out your evolution lines...

Creating powerful cards is important. It creates the desire to play the game. Creating powerful cards that are FASTER and STRONGER than everything else in the format though, with little downside to playing them if any at all, that creates a stale format where you just play the game of which weakness do I want to exploit? And by weakness, I literally mean, weakness... Do I think Darkrai is BDIF? Landorous it is. Do I think Landorous is BDIF? Tornados EX/Keldeo EX it is... That's the decision you are making going into every tournament now. Which turn 1 attacker do I want access to? That is pretty stale.

 

[ShadowGuard]

^ A ban list would be used for Pokemon as a last ditch effort to keep cards in check.

It's not single cards, it's the format.

In Pokemon, Mewtwo EX is the only ban worthy card I can think of.

What's your problem with Mewtwo-EX? Sure, it was evil back in spring, but right now it's not more broken than other EX-cards. A Mewtwo-EX ban would imo make the format even worse! Why? Mewtwo keeps Keldeo in check, and Keldeo is one of the most annoying matchups for creative and competitive stage 2 decks like Empoleon/Accelgor or Flygon/Dusknoir. Mewtwo-EX itself is btw absolutely no problem for these decks. Many competitive evolution-focused decks (spare Gothitelle) are happy about Mewtwo in format.

 

[Kayle]

Whoa. Lots of big posts. I'm going to try to respond to as much as I can at once, but I just don't have the energy to read everything. I think a lot of you are agreeing to the same general points that I have some responses for.


Point #1: Big Basics are bad for the format/demote deckbuilding or creativity.

I don't see how you can come to this conclusion without either misunderstanding the way the current format works, or admitting to some kind of bias or unfounded expectation of the game.

Big Basics are just another way to play the card game. (Admittedly, it is not a way I like as much as previous formats.) Energy acceleration + huge Basic attackers that have high HP and strong attacks = an obviously strong deck premise. I think one thing that gets people upset is the illusion that because almost every deck seems to be a theme on "big basic + energy accel = win games", the format is 'stale'.

My observations indicate that your deck choice is actually extremely important in any given tournament, as well as the exact list you choose. The skill of the game has shifted in favor of deckbuilding and deck choice, rather than in-game decisions. That isn't to say that making your in-game decisions has gotten any easier - it just means that deckbuilding and deck choice are far more important than they used to be. Not having that tool scrapper, or taking out the sigilyph, could make or break many games over the course of a single tournament.

Some people just seem to be upset that Basic Pokemon are such a big deal. Well, sorry - you aren't led to expect that evolutions are "supposed" to be better for any particular reason, nor should you be led to expect that Basics are "worse". They COULD make evolutions better, if they wanted, but they plainly don't care to. That isn't for us to decide, so take your preference of evolutions and leave it at the door. When you want to pass judgment on this game or format, please do so without expectation or bias. Ask yourself if the selection of decks in the format is balanced. I think you'll find that it is exceptionally so.

Point #1.1: Mewtwo EX is bad for the format.

No it's not. Stop living in last year.

What does Mewtwo do? It has this irritating property of shutting down anything that doesn't expect it, or isn't prepared for it, by just stacking a billion energy on itself. It isn't exactly a shining example of good game design from PCL. But even just including one Mewtwo in your deck prepares you to deal with a host of opposing Mewtwos, if you play smart and don't play a deck that is "mewtwo weak".

Mewtwo is central to the format, but it doesn't break the format. You can play decks entirely without it that answer it without significant trouble. Hammertime, Darkrai/Terrakion or Darkrai/Landorus, and Hydreigon can all deal with Mewtwo fairly easily in a number of ways, many of which consist of simply 2HKOing it somehow. You dislike it, because it has that irritating property - and that's fair -but that doesn't make it bad for the format. Again, please pass your judgment without bias or expectation, and be as objective as you can when deciding if something is unhealthy or broken.

Point #2: "Big Basic" Pokemon are naturally better, so when they receive small advantages, it unbalances the format in their favor.

Well, yes and no. This is a product of the way the format (read: current cards) are designed.

Take Prism energy and inject it into the SP format, and nothing changes. Prism energy sees little, if any, play. Take Eviolite and inject it into the SP format, and a few things change. Dialga gets significantly better, but it was already an extremely strong deck. Eviolite doesn't really swing Garchomp wars, since most Pokemon capable of KOing one do so through Eviolite; it does promote the longevity of cards like Luxray and possibly Sableye, but neither of those were really designed for front-and-center combat (and the latter prefers Expert Belt, while the former prefers Energy Gain).

You can say "Oh, but what about Poke-Turn and Energy Gain and cards like that?!" Those cards were just stupid good, I don't know what else to say, and the idea that you might try to compare the Basic-specific trainer lineup of that format to this one seems particularly awkward. Yes, let's pretend you can Poke-Turn your EX Pokemon, or attach an Energy Gain to that Darkrai. An already Basic-dominated format just gets that much more ridiculous. (Poke-turn in particular would be absurd in this format!!)

My point is, the cards we might complain about are really only made good by the way the rest of the cards already work. It comes back to, "the game's currently designed that way - deal with it".

I will say this: I cannot think of any really good stage 2 attackers in the current format save Empoleon, and even then it's not great. I haven't thought about it a whole lot, but I didn't see any great attackers in the last few sets of scans; every single stage 2 (and stage 1 for that matter) provoked a response of "...eh, might be okay" or worse, as far as attacking goes. What makes stage 2s interesting in this format are their abilities. Compare to Jumpluff (whose 120 damage cap was far more significant at that time), Gyarados (90 for no energy? Who DOESN'T think that's awesome?), and Flygon (90-110 for CCC), who all had their own perks as far as recovery, spammability, or splashability goes, AND had good attacks.


Point #3: the deck choices you have to make are autopilot and/or uninteresting.

Um, how many tournaments have you won?

I haven't won any. I have tried desperately every time to pick what I honestly thought was the best combination of cards for any given tournament. Landorus/Mewtwo. Empoleon/Mewtwo. Darkrai/Dusknoir. Darkrai/Tornadus. Each designed to counter something specific, even multiple somethings. None have actually netted me a tournament win, but the more accurately I can guess the metagame, the better I do.

"Which turn 1 attacker do I want access to"? Nobody except Tornadus EX and Rayquaza DRV actually attacks turn one, don't be silly. Ask a more realistic question. "Which EX attackers do I want to be weak to? Which EX attackers do I want to hit super-effectively? Which do I want to swing into my resistance, if I have one?" Those are much harder questions if your field actually has any variety.

Point #4: The format is too fast/opponents are doing damage too early.

Mewtwo + DCE turn one for 40 damage.

Ouch. You've put some serious pressure on me. I now need to scramble to respond to that Mewtwo. But, in turn, you've made a pretty gutsy play yourself, presenting what may turn into an easy two-prize lead for me, and forcing yourself into an early mewtwo war if I can respond.

That is about the extent of the turn one pressure you're going to see in this format. (Tornadus + DCE + Skyarrow does more damage, but is actually less threatening since Tornadus can't grow into a monster and will only do 160 damage total turn 2. Then again, Tornadus is harder to KO.) You MIGHT get a couple of turn 2 Power Blasts or turn 2 Night Spears here and there, but if you are playing other big basics, these aren't devastating - threatening, but not game-ending.

Meanwhile, two years ago, I open Sableye to my opponent's Magikarp. Play a dark energy. Win. Next round I open Sableye to my opponent's Sableye and win the flip. Expert Belt, dark energy, win. Next round, I open Sableye to my opponent's Luxray GL. Expert Belt, Collector for Bat G + Unown Q + Uxie. Play everything down and grab myself some additional cards. Expert Belt, Special Dark, win.

I've felt like this format moves at a snail's pace compared to the one I started in, where screwing up your setup in the first three turns would clearly and immediately dictate the course of your game.

Point #5: Ban list

No.

How would this help anything?! You have to first prove that there's something wrong that needs fixing, which I have just comprehensively shown I disagree with. You then have to show that removing cards from the format would fix that problem - pick some: pretending that the "problem" is that stage 2s should be better, Catcher doesn't actually help the fact that the big Basics are significantly better attackers than every stage 2 out there, Eviolite, Skyarrow and Prism don't actually provide a significant advantage vs stage 2s and just provide Basics some exclusive toys, so it doesn't actually make stage 2s any better. Removing Mewtwo doesn't change that Darkrai is still amazing. Removing Darkrai and Mewtwo doesn't change that Tornadus EX still destroys anything that needs to evolve. Okay, remove Darkrai, Tornadus, and Mewtwo; you still have to contend with the powerhouse Rayquaza EX, and with the stupidly powerful Keldeo EX. Remove both of those? So basically you're just going to ban every good Pokemon EX. At this point you're just trying to design a different game.

I won't argue that a ban or restricted list would be interesting. Yeah, it would be interesting. Restrict Mewtwo and Darkrai and the deck selection may open a lot. That doesn't necessarily make things BETTER, firstly. Secondly, whether or not it would be "interesting", it's a bad idea. It is a logistical nightmare, it is terribly confusing for new players, it invalidates large sums of money players have spent on nice cards without a predictable pattern, and it lowers the respectability and reliability of TCPi and PCL who APPARENTLY are already in a great deal of hot water with respect to their customers.


So yeah I disagree with pretty much every aspect of vaporeon's and gamester's argument I guess.

 

[vaporeon]

I had a wall of text but lost it when I pushed the back button on my mouse. I really hate that button. It was in a nut shell the balance of evolution is broken and over powered item cards dont help this. The core of Pokemon is evolution. All stages of evolution should be useful and competitive in some way. Explain why a ban list is not needed and why you think it wont work and dont use mewtwo keep keldeo in check because it does not. Keldeo can mewtwo war better then most deck.

Pretty much that in a nutshell.

 

[psychup2034]

Explain why a ban list is not needed and why you think it wont work and dont use mewtwo keep keldeo in check because it does not. Keldeo can mewtwo war better then most deck.

Kayle literally just explained it. :nonono: Here's a link.

 

[nikcamp2]

I'm tired of this post being about everyone is WRONG!!!! And vaporeon is right and everyone doesn't see the big picture that vaporeon can see, and he knows everything. I have seen multiple posts about how mewtwo ex doesn't need to be banned and if he was banned, bad things will happen like making the format worse. Which I agree with and I even made a post very early on about this in this worse format post. But no points are good enough for vaporeon. I really do believe you do not play this game competitively as I said previously. There is no way you do because only new players or bad players talk the way vaporeon does, like a scrub. Average, Good, and Great players will not complain about a card that doesn't break the cardgame, which mewtwo ex does not, compared to sableye sf after rule change and slowking are the only 2 cards that I have seen that not only break the format they break the game mechanics to where nothing compares to these cards. And these two cards had something weird to them to make them broke, like a mistranslation and a rule change. Sure if I had choice to make mewtwo ex a card or not, I wouldn't, but thats not my choice or vaporeon's choice, there would be a bunch cards I wish they didn't make, but like I said not my choice. Also good players adapt to cards not complain about them, you don't see Pooka or Jason K complain about cards being too broken or too good, only scrubs do that. Jason and Kyle play with the cards they want to play with in the format and they win. The only thing I see vaporoen does is complain about the format because deck is ruined by mewtwo ex. Vaporoen, play this game, I don't want you to quit this game because I want a lot of people to play this game, but i do want you to stop acting like a dictator on these posts because you do not know what your talking about, clearly.

Also if any new players sees this whole worse format post, do not pay any attention to what vaporoen says, he does not know what he is talking about because he is bad at this game, he does not test for this game, and he does not play competitively.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Scolipede wouldn't be useful even if EXs were banned. It's a horrible card.

Sorry to drag the conversation back to this, but this is somewhat of a trend that keeps growing, and I feel is a bigger cause of 'deteriorating' state of the game.

People run around calling cards horrible and bad for a variety of reasons, and refuse to take the time to experiment and actually see if it really is a dud. red face powder decks have all but vanished since HS, and netdecking has become much more common. People are stuck using things that are popular, or do well in Japan, but rarely do I see decks that someone tries to refine from mediocre to good to amazing, and the people who do experiment are strangely people that I've known since I started competitively back in 04.

I used to play a deck with Meganium ex and a number of strange techs (such as Deoxys ex Defense) back when Blastoise ex was popular (I was in Seniors for the record), and not only did I do well, I managed to make into Worlds, and such things just don't happen anymore. Instead of trying different things that are left unused in the format to resolve any poor match-ups or to stabilize and otherwise bad deck people are too hung up on the popular stuff, and refuse other cards to even have the time of day to prove otherwise.

 

[Gamester2488]

Whoa. Lots of big posts. I'm going to try to respond to as much as I can at once, but I just don't have the energy to read everything. I think a lot of you are agreeing to the same general points that I have some responses for.


Point #1: Big Basics are bad for the format/demote deckbuilding or creativity.

I don't see how you can come to this conclusion without either misunderstanding the way the current format works, or admitting to some kind of bias or unfounded expectation of the game.

Big Basics are just another way to play the card game. (Admittedly, it is not a way I like as much as previous formats.) Energy acceleration + huge Basic attackers that have high HP and strong attacks = an obviously strong deck premise. I think one thing that gets people upset is the illusion that because almost every deck seems to be a theme on "big basic + energy accel = win games", the format is 'stale'.

My observations indicate that your deck choice is actually extremely important in any given tournament, as well as the exact list you choose. The skill of the game has shifted in favor of deckbuilding and deck choice, rather than in-game decisions. That isn't to say that making your in-game decisions has gotten any easier - it just means that deckbuilding and deck choice are far more important than they used to be. Not having that tool scrapper, or taking out the sigilyph, could make or break many games over the course of a single tournament.

Some people just seem to be upset that Basic Pokemon are such a big deal. Well, sorry - you aren't led to expect that evolutions are "supposed" to be better for any particular reason, nor should you be led to expect that Basics are "worse". They COULD make evolutions better, if they wanted, but they plainly don't care to. That isn't for us to decide, so take your preference of evolutions and leave it at the door. When you want to pass judgment on this game or format, please do so without expectation or bias. Ask yourself if the selection of decks in the format is balanced. I think you'll find that it is exceptionally so.

Every deck in the format runs a combination of the following (at least, the successful ones)
Darkrai EX
Landoros EX
Tornados EX
Keldeo EX
Mewtwo EX
Sigilyph

No competitive deck in the format runs their deck ENTIRELY without these cards, with the exception being RayEeels on occasion, however I've seen a lot of lists running Mewtwo EX.

On top of that, most of the decks in the format run ONLY these cards, and an engine to set them up. The question in deck building is, what Attacker do you want for the metagame, and what engine do you want to set it up. That's it. Whether I've won a tournament or not, the fact remains, if you want to win in this format, you are playing the above cards in your deck + 4 catcher. What you do from there is dependent on what attacker you chose.

Point #1.1: Mewtwo EX is bad for the format.

No it's not. Stop living in last year.

What does Mewtwo do? It has this irritating property of shutting down anything that doesn't expect it, or isn't prepared for it, by just stacking a billion energy on itself. It isn't exactly a shining example of good game design from PCL. But even just including one Mewtwo in your deck prepares you to deal with a host of opposing Mewtwos, if you play smart and don't play a deck that is "mewtwo weak".

Mewtwo is central to the format, but it doesn't break the format. You can play decks entirely without it that answer it without significant trouble. Hammertime, Darkrai/Terrakion or Darkrai/Landorus, and Hydreigon can all deal with Mewtwo fairly easily in a number of ways, many of which consist of simply 2HKOing it somehow. You dislike it, because it has that irritating property - and that's fair -but that doesn't make it bad for the format. Again, please pass your judgment without bias or expectation, and be as objective as you can when deciding if something is unhealthy or broken.

The definition of a card being bad for any format, in any game, is that you either play the card, or you play a card that beats said card. If a card warps a format to the point that you either play the card yourself or a way to beat the card, then something is entirely wrong with said card. Do I think Mewtwo EX needs to be banned? No, because I don't actually believe in banning cards because they warp formats. If cards create a drastic drop in tournament attendance, or do something that is inherently bad for the game, then a card should be banned, but Mewtwo EX just warps a format around it. Instead of banning it, take it as a lesson that cards like that are bad for the game and try not to make that mistake again.

Point #2: "Big Basic" Pokemon are naturally better, so when they receive small advantages, it unbalances the format in their favor.

Well, yes and no. This is a product of the way the format (read: current cards) are designed.

Take Prism energy and inject it into the SP format, and nothing changes. Prism energy sees little, if any, play. Take Eviolite and inject it into the SP format, and a few things change. Dialga gets significantly better, but it was already an extremely strong deck. Eviolite doesn't really swing Garchomp wars, since most Pokemon capable of KOing one do so through Eviolite; it does promote the longevity of cards like Luxray and possibly Sableye, but neither of those were really designed for front-and-center combat (and the latter prefers Expert Belt, while the former prefers Energy Gain).

You can say "Oh, but what about Poke-Turn and Energy Gain and cards like that?!" Those cards were just stupid good, I don't know what else to say, and the idea that you might try to compare the Basic-specific trainer lineup of that format to this one seems particularly awkward. Yes, let's pretend you can Poke-Turn your EX Pokemon, or attach an Energy Gain to that Darkrai. An already Basic-dominated format just gets that much more ridiculous. (Poke-turn in particular would be absurd in this format!!)

My point is, the cards we might complain about are really only made good by the way the rest of the cards already work. It comes back to, "the game's currently designed that way - deal with it".

I will say this: I cannot think of any really good stage 2 attackers in the current format save Empoleon, and even then it's not great. I haven't thought about it a whole lot, but I didn't see any great attackers in the last few sets of scans; every single stage 2 (and stage 1 for that matter) provoked a response of "...eh, might be okay" or worse, as far as attacking goes. What makes stage 2s interesting in this format are their abilities. Compare to Jumpluff (whose 120 damage cap was far more significant at that time), Gyarados (90 for no energy? Who DOESN'T think that's awesome?), and Flygon (90-110 for CCC), who all had their own perks as far as recovery, spammability, or splashability goes, AND had good attacks.

Big Basic pokemon have naturally built in advantages. They are basic, so they don't take any initial set up, are super consistent, and they can stop stage 2's from hitting play. So, with these advantages, why would you take an entire design area of the game, evolutions, and make them obsolete because you made one set of cards too strong? The advantage that Stage 2's and other evolutions should have is higher HP and beefier, more energy dependent attacks. It's the reward you get for investing resources in playing those cards. Why would you want to waste time and sacrifice consistency when you can just play heavier hitting, tankier basic pokemon? Why would the game designers decide to completely ignore an entire aspect of the game? So much design space is ruined because of big basics being overly powerful.

The response, "the game is currently designed that way, deal with it" is an awful thing to say. Game design is important to always be balanced around every aspect of the game. I know Pokemon and Magic are very different games, but they are comparable as they are the only games that have had such running successes. Yu-Gi-Oh failed its consumer by printing hard to obtain promo's that were required to play the best decks, resulting in "modified" decks starting at a cool 1k, and WoW never really took off. Beyond that there isn't much else...

So, the comparison. Imagine if Magic the Gathering, a game designed around 5 distinct colors, decided they wanted to make a set that was entirely based around the color blue. They made the blue cards so far more superior that you actually just couldn't play anything non-blue, because blue was just too good. You have now ignored 4 whole colors and a lot of design space, and you've neglected some of your consumers. What if I always play white in every tournament, but suddenly I can't? I may not always play the best deck in the format, but I always find a white deck that is competitive. Now I can't. It's the same concept with every other color. 4/5ths of the games potential design space is wasted, and it's lazy work by RnD.

So, how does this apply to pokemon? Well, game designers get paid to create a balanced game. When you look at Pokemon, you have two types of deck focus. Basics and Evolutions. Good game design would lead to a balance between Basics and Evolutions. Currently in the format, you gain nothing by playing Evolutions, because they are weaker and more fragile than the basics in the format. Awkward. Since when does investing in something result in less return? I should invest 3 cards and get donked by one. Big Basics create natural card advantage, because while you get to take 2 prizes if you faint one, when your opponent faints your Stage 2, they've just gained +2 cards on you plus whatever energy you had attached to it. Free Bill every time you KO a Stage 2. Free KO every time you KO Mewtwo. Which would you rather have? I think I'd take the Bill, because eventually, enough Bills and I'm so far ahead it doesn't matter anymore.

So, how does that in turn apply to your comment? It says that the designers got lazy. They didn't do their job balancing the game around the two main focal points of the TCG. They created big basic pokemon, but provided no Evolutionary counterplay in the format. Sure, they gave us cool Evolutions we can use, but they generally just sit on our bench while our basics duke it out. That's lazy design. As a consumer, we shouldn't have to "deal" with lazy design.

Point #3: the deck choices you have to make are autopilot and/or uninteresting.

Um, how many tournaments have you won?

I haven't won any. I have tried desperately every time to pick what I honestly thought was the best combination of cards for any given tournament. Landorus/Mewtwo. Empoleon/Mewtwo. Darkrai/Dusknoir. Darkrai/Tornadus. Each designed to counter something specific, even multiple somethings. None have actually netted me a tournament win, but the more accurately I can guess the metagame, the better I do.

"Which turn 1 attacker do I want access to"? Nobody except Tornadus EX and Rayquaza DRV actually attacks turn one, don't be silly. Ask a more realistic question. "Which EX attackers do I want to be weak to? Which EX attackers do I want to hit super-effectively? Which do I want to swing into my resistance, if I have one?" Those are much harder questions if your field actually has any variety.

Your right. I completely agree that this format is skill intensive starting with the deck construction. That's not because this format is actually skill intensive so much as this format has 6-7 drastically different big basics who are all completely viable in a vacuum. Therefor, those who take the time to test the match-ups between the different basics will determine which deck is better in their predicted metagame. From there, it's actually being brave enough to make that choice and once there, be lucky enough to have that choice work out. The players who win consistently are the ones who have taken the time to figure out how to be the most versatile in their "tech" choice.

Point #4: The format is too fast/opponents are doing damage too early.

Mewtwo + DCE turn one for 40 damage.

Ouch. You've put some serious pressure on me. I now need to scramble to respond to that Mewtwo. But, in turn, you've made a pretty gutsy play yourself, presenting what may turn into an easy two-prize lead for me, and forcing yourself into an early mewtwo war if I can respond.

That is about the extent of the turn one pressure you're going to see in this format. (Tornadus + DCE + Skyarrow does more damage, but is actually less threatening since Tornadus can't grow into a monster and will only do 160 damage total turn 2. Then again, Tornadus is harder to KO.) You MIGHT get a couple of turn 2 Power Blasts or turn 2 Night Spears here and there, but if you are playing other big basics, these aren't devastating - threatening, but not game-ending.

Meanwhile, two years ago, I open Sableye to my opponent's Magikarp. Play a dark energy. Win. Next round I open Sableye to my opponent's Sableye and win the flip. Expert Belt, dark energy, win. Next round, I open Sableye to my opponent's Luxray GL. Expert Belt, Collector for Bat G + Unown Q + Uxie. Play everything down and grab myself some additional cards. Expert Belt, Special Dark, win.

I've felt like this format moves at a snail's pace compared to the one I started in, where screwing up your setup in the first three turns would clearly and immediately dictate the course of your game.

I don't see how this format is fast at all. The Tornados EX and some really luckky Ho-Oh EX starts are blistering, but beyond that, other than the donkability of the Stage 2 decks (like Blastoise) are the only reason why games end quickly in this format. Otherwise most decks are setting up their engines over the course of the first 2-3 turns, and from there the games can grind out pretty long, and quite possible could end in a deck out... non Durant style at that...

Point #5: Ban list

No.

How would this help anything?! You have to first prove that there's something wrong that needs fixing, which I have just comprehensively shown I disagree with. You then have to show that removing cards from the format would fix that problem - pick some: pretending that the "problem" is that stage 2s should be better, Catcher doesn't actually help the fact that the big Basics are significantly better attackers than every stage 2 out there, Eviolite, Skyarrow and Prism don't actually provide a significant advantage vs stage 2s and just provide Basics some exclusive toys, so it doesn't actually make stage 2s any better. Removing Mewtwo doesn't change that Darkrai is still amazing. Removing Darkrai and Mewtwo doesn't change that Tornadus EX still destroys anything that needs to evolve. Okay, remove Darkrai, Tornadus, and Mewtwo; you still have to contend with the powerhouse Rayquaza EX, and with the stupidly powerful Keldeo EX. Remove both of those? So basically you're just going to ban every good Pokemon EX. At this point you're just trying to design a different game.

I won't argue that a ban or restricted list would be interesting. Yeah, it would be interesting. Restrict Mewtwo and Darkrai and the deck selection may open a lot. That doesn't necessarily make things BETTER, firstly. Secondly, whether or not it would be "interesting", it's a bad idea. It is a logistical nightmare, it is terribly confusing for new players, it invalidates large sums of money players have spent on nice cards without a predictable pattern, and it lowers the respectability and reliability of TCPi and PCL who APPARENTLY are already in a great deal of hot water with respect to their customers.


So yeah I disagree with pretty much every aspect of vaporeon's and gamester's argument I guess.

I agree with this point as well. Ban lists are actually really bad for games. It does take a lot for a designer to admit fault though, and ban lists have happened to help formats in the past for Magic the Gathering, but overall, I think they are a bad idea. You know what fixes problem cards? Rotations. Counterplay in future sets. Evolution of a format. Mewtwo EX is already starting to drop out of decks. If anything at all in this format would be banned, I would vote for Catcher because I think it prevents a lot of decks from existing, but other than that, I think the format is fine.

I want to make it clear that I actually love this format. For me, it's super easy to get back into the game and a lot of the decks are really fun. Ho-Oh EX is probably in my top 5 favorite decks of any card game ever. My wife gets to play Rayquaza, who's her favorite pokemon. Blastoise is GOOD again, even though he generally is only wanted for his body.

What I would like to see though, that would really make this format special, is the ability to succeed with Stage 2 Evolutions being the focus rather than the engine. Toning down the power level of Big Basics, and putting them on an even playing field. Putting some risk into the reward.

Mewtwo Battles aside, how powerful do you think Mewtwo EX would be in this format if he had 120 HP vice 170? Would he still be playable? What if Darkrai EX had 140? How about Blastoise having 180HP. Would he be broken? He might live to attack a few times... thats for sure.

 

[Team CREAM]

...even though he generally is only wanted for his body.

I know that feel, bro.

 

[Otaku]

How powerful would Mewtwo EX be without Energy acceleration that was available before a player's third turn?

How might Evolutions compete if they followed the model of Croconaw (DP: Mysterious Treasures 44/123), which Evolved into Feraligatr (DP: Mysterious Treasures 8/123)? Though to be fair several Feraligatr could make good use of that Poké-Power.

I seem to be between the two camps as I consider Mewtwo EX overpowered given the format but believe banning it would do more harm than good, even if it was only confusing people about what they could play. Actually, I may not even be that much "in between" since I see some similar sentiment; just easy to lose it with everyone doing solid impersonations of me. :lol:

Sadly, this is also repeating myself many times over, because this is a thread that just should have ended about when it began.

"Is the current format the worst ever?"

No, not even when the thread was new.

No, not now.

Probably not in the immediate future either.

I can write a long list of things I believe are "wrong" with the format, but even if I were spot on for every one of them... this still would not be the worst format the game has seen. There are many positives about this format as well.

 

[Rambo]

It's a bad format...but not the worst.

 

[Charranitar]

Broken Time Space would seriously make this format amazing.

 

[Kayle]

Every deck in the format runs a combination of the following (at least, the successful ones)
Darkrai EX
Landoros EX
Tornados EX
Keldeo EX
Mewtwo EX
Sigilyph

No competitive deck in the format runs their deck ENTIRELY without these cards, with the exception being RayEeels on occasion, however I've seen a lot of lists running Mewtwo EX.

...so?

Even if we're just to constrict to Pokemon (which is unfair because this is the most Pokemon-centric format I've ever seen - some of the older trainers are amazing and were very dominant), you saw a lot of Cleffa, Yanmega, Magnezone, Emboar, and Vileplume a couple years ago. Then you saw a lot of Luxray GL, Garchomp C, Sableye SF, Uxie, Crobat G, Unown Q, Dialga G...

I do not see how this reinforces your point.

On top of that, most of the decks in the format run ONLY these cards, and an engine to set them up. The question in deck building is, what Attacker do you want for the metagame, and what engine do you want to set it up. That's it. Whether I've won a tournament or not, the fact remains, if you want to win in this format, you are playing the above cards in your deck + 4 catcher. What you do from there is dependent on what attacker you chose.

Yes, you're correct. Again, how does this reinforce your point? If you want to play a competitive deck, choose a competitive card combination, a series of cards that work well with that combination, and tweak them into something that sets up and hopefully proves more powerful than your opponents' decks.

The definition of a card being bad for any format, in any game, is that you either play the card, or you play a card that beats said card. If a card warps a format to the point that you either play the card yourself or a way to beat the card, then something is entirely wrong with said card. Do I think Mewtwo EX needs to be banned? No, because I don't actually believe in banning cards because they warp formats. If cards create a drastic drop in tournament attendance, or do something that is inherently bad for the game, then a card should be banned, but Mewtwo EX just warps a format around it. Instead of banning it, take it as a lesson that cards like that are bad for the game and try not to make that mistake again.

Firstly, your definition of a card being bad is YOUR definition, not mine. Secondly, I find your definition linear and strict. What about Claydol GE? You either played Claydol, or you played another card that allowed you to set up FASTER than Claydol. Why does that make it bad? Claydol made a massive number of decks viable. Mewtwo gives a bunch of creative, bizarre combinations life by offering them a splashable and strong attacker.

Thirdly, Mewtwo EX is not SO centric as you're trying to make it out to be. You are simplifying my point to suit yours. Regardless of how good Mewtwo is or isn't, a deck either runs it, or doesn't. Now we acknowledge that it's good, so you need to assess whether you fear it or not. Many decks right now don't, for a number of reasons, varying from "I can 2hko it with cards I naturally run" to "It just overpowers it". Some still do - so you run something that can kill it... which happens to be itself (but also sigilyph and in some situations meloetta).

How isn't that how every central card works? Darkrai works like that. Rayquaza works like that. Terrakion works like that. Landorus works like that. Tornadus works like that.

Big Basic pokemon have naturally built in advantages. They are basic, so they don't take any initial set up, are super consistent, and they can stop stage 2's from hitting play.

You are grossly misunderstanding the nature of both Basic Pokemon and this format. Did you play in any previous format without big EX pokemon or, more importantly, pre-BW?

The CURRENTLY DESIGNED Pokemon EX, in addition to being basics, actually require significant set up: three energy is not trivial. (They just need less set-up than most Evolutions do right now - but not less than, say, Empoleon. Empoleon is about on par with most EXs.) They don't seem to need much setup because there are lots of ways to get around their required setup time: Dark Patch and Dynamotor primarily.

They aren't super consistent. Nothing in this format is super consistent compared to, say, Gyarados or Luxchomp. ;_; I got the WC2010 Gyarados today so that format is on my mind.

They can only stop stage 2s from hitting play because Catcher exists. They themselves don't do that very well (except, in some distant alternate universe, Raikou EX).

So, with these advantages, why would you take an entire design area of the game, evolutions, and make them obsolete because you made one set of cards too strong?

Who cares?

No, really, who cares? Why does it matter to you? Is the game fun as it is or not? Evolutions' relevance is... well... irrelevant!

The advantage that Stage 2's and other evolutions should have is higher HP and beefier, more energy dependent attacks. It's the reward you get for investing resources in playing those cards. Why would you want to waste time and sacrifice consistency when you can just play heavier hitting, tankier basic pokemon?

You've brought an assumption to the game, which I have bolded for you. Why should "investing resources" in stage 2s give you some kind of reward? Only because you expect them to - not because that is some guaranteed aspect of the game.

The response, "the game is currently designed that way, deal with it" is an awful thing to say. Game design is important to always be balanced around every aspect of the game.

Give me an example of a game that balances EVERY aspect of itself so that you can play towards almost any angle and have it be competitive. I don't expect you to find many examples because that's incredibly hard to do. Take any example you find afterward, and ask yourself: is this game meant to be 100% competitive? Is it meant to be a competition between the players that everyone can approach on an equal level? Because Pokemon is not that kind of game. Cards are designed frequently just for the sake of being pretty and fun to look at. See the Shiny Collection.

I know Pokemon and Magic are very different games, but they are comparable as they are the only games that have had such running successes.

They have completely different target markets and therefore the comparison between them is tenable at best.

So, the comparison. Imagine if Magic the Gathering, a game designed around 5 distinct colors, decided they wanted to make a set that was entirely based around the color blue. They made the blue cards so far more superior that you actually just couldn't play anything non-blue, because blue was just too good. You have now ignored 4 whole colors and a lot of design space, and you've neglected some of your consumers. What if I always play white in every tournament, but suddenly I can't? I may not always play the best deck in the format, but I always find a white deck that is competitive. Now I can't. It's the same concept with every other color. 4/5ths of the games potential design space is wasted, and it's lazy work by RnD.

Wow, there are so many things wrong with this (in my eyes)...

Let me be clear. If the example you described above happened, I would probably agree that it was a very stupid and bad idea. But the analogy and comparison is just... ugh.

1. If Magic decided to do that, you still have to judge the game based on what is competitive. Are there several different blue decks that run in different ways? One of the ways Magic prevents this from happening is by giving each color a "theme" in game mechanics, that they adhere to loosely if they like. Assuming they stopped doing that for the purpose of this set, then, you have to ask yourself if the game you're playing - where it's really just "one-color Magic" - is still fun. Knowing WOTC, it probably would be.

2. They are under no obligation to care whether or not you play "all white" in every tournament. (or just primary white.) The target audience of Magic is people who play a competitive game. If they decide to make other colors moot or secondary for a while to make the game interesting and different, their target audience is likely to follow that (as long as the resulting game is still interesting as in part 1). If you don't care for the competition and just like making good white decks, you're outside the target audience, and your opinion is not as important to them as you might like it to be.

3. "Ignored four colors and a lot of design space... lazy work by RnD." Making bad cards isn't any easier than making good cards, you know. You have to be careful about what you do to make them interesting - especially in a game like Magic, but also in a game like Pokemon. You can't just release a set of 10 Pokemon EX and 90 Pokemon with low HP and high-energy-cost low-damage attacks. There have to be some interesting concepts even if they aren't good. If you give them some interesting properties without paying attention to how those properties work together with everything else, a broken combination can emerge and the game can be truly, completely destroyed, rather than just centered around one color.

4. "4/5ths of the design space is wasted." This is a point where the comparison is invalid. I'll elaborate after your next quote.

So, how does this apply to pokemon? Well, game designers get paid to create a balanced game. When you look at Pokemon, you have two types of deck focus. Basics and Evolutions. Good game design would lead to a balance between Basics and Evolutions. Currently in the format, you gain nothing by playing Evolutions, because they are weaker and more fragile than the basics in the format. Awkward. Since when does investing in something result in less return? I should invest 3 cards and get donked by one. Big Basics create natural card advantage, because while you get to take 2 prizes if you faint one, when your opponent faints your Stage 2, they've just gained +2 cards on you plus whatever energy you had attached to it. Free Bill every time you KO a Stage 2. Free KO every time you KO Mewtwo. Which would you rather have? I think I'd take the Bill, because eventually, enough Bills and I'm so far ahead it doesn't matter anymore.

I've bolded misapplied or misunderstood ideas, and underlined opinions.

In regards to point 4 above, you assume that Basics and Evolutions should be considered competitively equal, which is an assumption. To be clear, I'd like it better that way too, but that isn't a symptom of the game being bad. Stage 2 Pokemon are expected to make the sets complete from a collector and casual appreciator's point of view, in the same way that a Magic collector would be disturbed if they found a set that consisted ONLY of blue cards.

You have misinterpreted the nature of this game such that you think that Basics and Evolutions should be on equal footing when there is no reason to believe that. You have assumed that Stage 2s take more investment for setup, firstly, which isn't necessarily true (and only happens to be POSSIBLY true in this format because of how conveniently the support matches up with EX Pokemon), but secondly, you have also said - let me quote it again -

Since when does investing in something result in less return?

When a card requires more investment than its return is worth, that's called a bad card. Sorry. Cards are bad sometimes. In fact, cards are often bad. That is a natural part of TCG design. Not every card can be competitive. That'd be a nightmare both from a marketing and a design point of view.

So, how does that in turn apply to your comment? It says that the designers got lazy. They didn't do their job balancing the game around the two main focal points of the TCG. They created big basic pokemon, but provided no Evolutionary counterplay in the format. Sure, they gave us cool Evolutions we can use, but they generally just sit on our bench while our basics duke it out. That's lazy design. As a consumer, we shouldn't have to "deal" with lazy design.

I don't want to give the impression that I am ignoring any part of your post, but I want to point out that this is not a sound statement for reasons I have outlined already, namely that the idea that they "should" balance it around both evolutions and legendary basics is fabricated. Indeed, the idea that evolution is a focal point of the TCG is up for contention, as well. Energy manipulation is an extremely important aspect of the game, too, one that is sometimes quite neglected in other formats (see SP, imo). And many formats from several years ago saw very few competitive basic Pokemon, and even fewer decks based around basics.

So all that said, I find the idea that the design is "lazy" not only off-base but honestly really obnoxious.

Your right. I completely agree that this format is skill intensive starting with the deck construction. That's not because this format is actually skill intensive so much as this format has 6-7 drastically different big basics who are all completely viable in a vacuum.

"I agree it's skill intensive, but not because it's skill intensive."

...what???

EDIT: Also, lol at the idea that any of the EX Pokemon are "viable in a vacuum" - implying that they're just naturally good. Mewtwo EX is the only card that maybe fits this definition. Remove Dark Patch and Darkrai becomes okay at best. Remove DCE and Tornadus becomes significantly less attractive. Remove Blastoise and Keldeo is just sort of eh. If you were to translate Abilities back into Bodies and Powers, I bet an appropriately retooled Luxchomp could wreck most of the decks you would try to play from this format (without removing cards, mind you).

Therefor, those who take the time to test the match-ups between the different basics will determine which deck is better in their predicted metagame. From there, it's actually being brave enough to make that choice and once there, be lucky enough to have that choice work out. The players who win consistently are the ones who have taken the time to figure out how to be the most versatile in their "tech" choice.

And your point is? That sounds exactly like the ideal skill-intensive game to me. The time you invest in practicing and understanding the game comes back around to reward you with wins and success. Please explain why this is bad.

I don't see how this format is fast at all. The Tornados EX and some really luckky Ho-Oh EX starts are blistering, but beyond that, other than the donkability of the Stage 2 decks (like Blastoise) are the only reason why games end quickly in this format.

But, stage 2 decks firstly aren't all that donkable - t1 or t2 60 is actually quite hard to do bar an amazing Tornadus start, or a decent Mewtwo start coupled with really terrible luck for the stage 2 player. Secondly, stage 2s aren't prevalent enough that games actually end all that quickly. Are you seeing a lot of turn one or turn two wins? Because I see hardly any!



(The rest of your post was in agreement with mine so I don't feel a need to respond. Hopefully you understand.)