Hi there, first post and first time player of pokemon tcg (I collected the original series back in the day but never played because I was really young). I've really only started getting into the game this year but I've noticed the third win condition "opponent can't draw a card at the start of his/her turn" never happens. Are there many cards geared towards discarding your opponent's deck? And if there are is it feasible to build a deck around this idea? I'm not looking to make a world class deck or anything I just think it'd be a cool gimmick.
Is winning the game the third way possible?
- Thread starter Badjaman
- Start date
Walrusaurus
New Member
I think this win condition's main purpose was just to make sure people are actually careful with how they use their resources. Example, back in the Base Set era there was a Trainer card (Professor Oak), that had the same effect as Professor Juniper, but it wasn't a Supporter (so you could play as many of them as you want per turn!). There was also Bill, which drew you 2 cards. The threat of this win condition makes it more dangerous to just tear through your deck with a ton of Oaks and Bills (unless if it's for the win).
There are cards that are geared toward winning that way, however. Moltres from the Fossil set had an attack that discarded the top card of your opponent's deck for each Fire Energy attached to it (and then you discard all of the Fire). But from what I heard it wasn't really competitive material.
There was also Durant (Noble Victories), that discards the top card from your opponent's deck for each Durant you have in play. This was a competitive deck during the HGSS-NVI era, and it will be playable again in an official tournament when the Black and White-on format starts.
What's legal now is Aggron (Dragons Exalted) that discards the tops 3 cards of your opponent's deck when you put Aggron into play from your hand. It doesn't make a great deck, but it did Top 8 a National Championship.
Trick Shovel (an Item from the Flashfire set) can discard the top card of your opponent's deck, or your deck.
There was also a Rhyperior from the DP era that did the same thing as Aggron. Not sure if it was any good, though.
I hope this post helps you.
There are cards that are geared toward winning that way, however. Moltres from the Fossil set had an attack that discarded the top card of your opponent's deck for each Fire Energy attached to it (and then you discard all of the Fire). But from what I heard it wasn't really competitive material.
There was also Durant (Noble Victories), that discards the top card from your opponent's deck for each Durant you have in play. This was a competitive deck during the HGSS-NVI era, and it will be playable again in an official tournament when the Black and White-on format starts.
What's legal now is Aggron (Dragons Exalted) that discards the tops 3 cards of your opponent's deck when you put Aggron into play from your hand. It doesn't make a great deck, but it did Top 8 a National Championship.
Trick Shovel (an Item from the Flashfire set) can discard the top card of your opponent's deck, or your deck.
There was also a Rhyperior from the DP era that did the same thing as Aggron. Not sure if it was any good, though.
I hope this post helps you.
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Winning via mill is definitely an option.
I mnostly agree with Walrusaurus (I think it makes a great and amazingly fun deck) and I thought I would give you a bit more of an insight. I play an Aggron deck, however rotation is looming and I won't be able to play it much longer. If you are not concerned about set legality for league play, then I highly recommend this deck. The deck revolves around the use of Devolution Spray which de-evolves the Aggron into a Lairon before allowing you to evolve a different Lairon on the same turn (or the same Lairon on the turn after) to use Toppling Wind (the effect that mills the opponent) before DEX Sableye is used to recycle Devolution Spray with its Junk Hunt attack.
There is a Rhyperior/Rhydon (XY) mill deck that is currently legal, but requires the use of a Celebi EX to use Rhydon's attack while getting the HP boost as a Rhyperior and heavy investment of energy. This is a dangerous thing in a format that punishes loading up a single pokemon with energy (Yveltal EX, Mewtwo EX, Team Plasma Leafeon), especially when there is no accelleration for the deck (accelleration is any mechanic that allows for the attachment of more than one energy per turn. It is not a guaranteed mill as it revolves on milling equal to the damage on Rhyperior AFTER getting two heads on a coin flips
(ie: 2 head + no damage = no mill OR one or more tails + damage = no mill).
The cool thing about this deck is that if mill stops being an option Rhyperior is still a powerful attacker if it comes down to it.
Another option is the use of Swoobat. The attack Jet Woofer mills equal to the number of psychic energy attached to Swoobat. You can pair this with a Gardevior to double your psychic energy attached. Sadly Gardevoir is also rotating if that affects you.
I'll post again if I can think of anything else. Welcome to the community!
Cheers,
Mithos
I mnostly agree with Walrusaurus (I think it makes a great and amazingly fun deck) and I thought I would give you a bit more of an insight. I play an Aggron deck, however rotation is looming and I won't be able to play it much longer. If you are not concerned about set legality for league play, then I highly recommend this deck. The deck revolves around the use of Devolution Spray which de-evolves the Aggron into a Lairon before allowing you to evolve a different Lairon on the same turn (or the same Lairon on the turn after) to use Toppling Wind (the effect that mills the opponent) before DEX Sableye is used to recycle Devolution Spray with its Junk Hunt attack.
There is a Rhyperior/Rhydon (XY) mill deck that is currently legal, but requires the use of a Celebi EX to use Rhydon's attack while getting the HP boost as a Rhyperior and heavy investment of energy. This is a dangerous thing in a format that punishes loading up a single pokemon with energy (Yveltal EX, Mewtwo EX, Team Plasma Leafeon), especially when there is no accelleration for the deck (accelleration is any mechanic that allows for the attachment of more than one energy per turn. It is not a guaranteed mill as it revolves on milling equal to the damage on Rhyperior AFTER getting two heads on a coin flips
(ie: 2 head + no damage = no mill OR one or more tails + damage = no mill).
The cool thing about this deck is that if mill stops being an option Rhyperior is still a powerful attacker if it comes down to it.
Another option is the use of Swoobat. The attack Jet Woofer mills equal to the number of psychic energy attached to Swoobat. You can pair this with a Gardevior to double your psychic energy attached. Sadly Gardevoir is also rotating if that affects you.
I'll post again if I can think of anything else. Welcome to the community!
Cheers,
Mithos
There's also Dialga EX, whose second attack hits for 90, costs CCCC, but has this effect:
"For each Plasma Energy attached to this Pokémon, discard the top card of your opponent's deck"
I've used it with colress machine to get the plasma energy out, and plasma porygon-Z to help keep it on the field, and shadow triad to get it back out of the discard pile if it ever makes its way there. I've played around with scramble-switch, too, to bounce between multiple Dialga Ex's, and used max potions along the lines of the classic Darkrai/Hydreigon decks. (Move the energy, max potion, move it back.)
90 damage plus a potential 4-mill attack is actually quite fun
"For each Plasma Energy attached to this Pokémon, discard the top card of your opponent's deck"
I've used it with colress machine to get the plasma energy out, and plasma porygon-Z to help keep it on the field, and shadow triad to get it back out of the discard pile if it ever makes its way there. I've played around with scramble-switch, too, to bounce between multiple Dialga Ex's, and used max potions along the lines of the classic Darkrai/Hydreigon decks. (Move the energy, max potion, move it back.)
90 damage plus a potential 4-mill attack is actually quite fun
CodeRedAddictMD
New Member
Back in the Base Set days, I knew a few people who specifically played Stall decks for this exact sort of win. It basically ran off Alakazam and Chansey. Nothing then dealt damage like they do now. I used a Turbo Blastoise at the time and still had trouble winning. I'd do 60 damage, then Alakazam would move it and get rid of it. Damage rarely stayed around long enough for me to do enough to KO anything. Pokémon centers would always get rid of all damage at the cost of energy but that was no big deal cause he rarely attacked. Scoop up helped a lot in this deck too. Don't remember the exact build but I decked out a lot against this deck. Especially since I used a lot of Bills and Oaks as previously mentioned. Dusknoir in Flashfire has an ability similar to Alakazam's pokepower, but Dusknoir can only move it to himself, Alakazam could spread it amongst the bench.
I lost to this deck on PTCGO recently.
I also a semi final at Worlds in 2005 due to this 'win condition'
There are also these cards that make your opponent discard from hand.
Red Card: Make your opponent discard down to 4 cards.
Talonflame: Shuffle opponents hand into deck and draw 4 cards.
Hooligans Jim & Cass: Flip a coin, if heads opponent must discard 3 random cards.
Malamar (Mental Trash): Opponent flips 4 coins, for each tails they discard a card from their hand
Durant (X/Y): does the same thing as Red Card
Red Card: Make your opponent discard down to 4 cards.
Talonflame: Shuffle opponents hand into deck and draw 4 cards.
Hooligans Jim & Cass: Flip a coin, if heads opponent must discard 3 random cards.
Malamar (Mental Trash): Opponent flips 4 coins, for each tails they discard a card from their hand
Durant (X/Y): does the same thing as Red Card
Back in the days of 1st gen TCG cards, my dad created his infamous "Stall Deck" that was designed to do just that. It was loaded with Chanseys, and included an Alakazam that could move around damage counters on your own Pokemon (similar to the new Dusknoir), and a Mr. Mime that would limit damage output (only moves that did 20 or less could hit him). He used the Alakazam to shuffle around damage so nothing died, then he would wipe it all clean with a Pokemon Center (remove all damage counters from all Pokemon, but discard all energies attached to those Pokemon). Chansey's Scrunch would also keep it from taking damage on the following turn if you flipped heads.
The general strategy of the deck was to outlast your opponent, and it was incredibly effective. He would stall and stall and stall until he got one of the few somethings in his deck that could dish out a lot of damage. Of course, there were no "big basics" in that day, so to get something really strong, it was almost always a Stage 2 that needed 4 energies. That meant he needed the time.
Is it possible to do this using the current cardset? I'm not sure. Very fast decks are very popular right now, and they involve sweeping through your deck pretty quickly. If you could find a way to absorb that damage or keep your opponent from using things like G Booster, then I would say it is quite possible to hold on until they accidentally sweep through their entire deck.
The general strategy of the deck was to outlast your opponent, and it was incredibly effective. He would stall and stall and stall until he got one of the few somethings in his deck that could dish out a lot of damage. Of course, there were no "big basics" in that day, so to get something really strong, it was almost always a Stage 2 that needed 4 energies. That meant he needed the time.
Is it possible to do this using the current cardset? I'm not sure. Very fast decks are very popular right now, and they involve sweeping through your deck pretty quickly. If you could find a way to absorb that damage or keep your opponent from using things like G Booster, then I would say it is quite possible to hold on until they accidentally sweep through their entire deck.