Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Judges: This happened at Nationals. What do you think?

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Team Cook

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Okay, first of all, I want to say that I like the judge who handed this decision. Well, it's not really a decision, but please read on.....


WHAT HAPPENED: It was first or second turn, and my opponent had no bench. He used a Master Ball, and drew his seven cards. He placed his selected card face down on the table and shuffled the remaining six cards back in the deck. Upon flipping over his selected card, I noticed that it was a fossil. I told him that it was my understanding that a fossil is not considered a Pokemon until it is in play and therefore cannot be pulled with a Master Ball. He thought I was wrong, and we agreed to call a judge.

The judge confirmed that I was right about the fossil, but the cards had already been shuffled.......


QUESTION: What would you do???


WHAT THE JUDGE DID/SAID: The judge asked my opponent what Pokemon were in the other 6 cards. My opponent said he had a Shedinja and a Gastly in there. The judge turned to me and asked me if I would accept that in the spirit of good sportsmanship. Naturally, in the spirit of good sportsmanship, I said okay, but I added that "it would probably come back to bite me in the butt". AND IT DID.

I could have knocked out his one and only Pokemon... but I agreed to it -- partially because I didn't want to be a butthead, but also because I really didn't stand a chance on winning anyway (and I already had 2 losses at that point).

BUT, WHAT IF I DID have a chance at winning, and the game meant a lot more at that point. What would my options have been?

Now, I'm not MAD and I'm not whining or complaining... Remember, I agreed to it.... I am just wondering what would have happened if I didn't agree to it, and I am also wondering what call other judges there might have made in this situation.

Thanks!
 
That's a tough call. An irreversible advantage gained by an apparently honest misplay.

Given that this was an important tournament, it might have been more prudent for the judge to rule that the fossil be shuffled back into the deck and that the player not receive any Pokemon from using Masterball. But even this provides the player with some advantage. That of certain knowledge about cards in his deck as opposed to his prizes.

Perhaps we need to copy the old DCI rule enforcement levels?

At a local weekly tournament, this would just be a warning.

For a tournament like Nationals, a game loss would not be out of the question for this type of mistake. There is no way to replace or make up for the advantage gained by the other player seeing those seven cards.

My question to the judges is this. Was a warning recorded for this player? If not, how do you know that this player doesn't do something like this in every game he or she plays?

I don't mean to sound like a hardbutt. I make more than my share of mistakes as well. But we need to cut this type of thing in the bud, lest we soon find ourselves playing more and more like MTG, where casual cheating is the norm.
 
Well, since you agreed, you agreed.
However, if you had said that you did not agree, then it could have led to the use of the Trainer fizzling with no Pokemon drawn.

As a side note, when pulling a card from your deck that you are going to have to show your opponent, leave it face up right away. If he had done that and not left it face down, the peoblem could have been averted right there.
 
I would fall into the shuffle it in and get nothing camp.
At this level a warning would be noted in my note book in case it occured again (or similar)

A game loss here (as defined in DCI, in one game pokemon match game loss was prize swap. in best 3 of situations it would be a game) is too harsh for a first time offence. Warned noted and loss of a useful trainer is pretty good. IMHO
 
I would say the master ball player has the burden to prove at least one of the cards was a basic and which basic it was. Since he/she can't, he/she should shuffle the trainer card back in the deck and then leave the Master Ball in the discard, just as if he/she never found anything. I don't see a need for anything further other than a caution, warning tops. The seven cards would have been seen no matter what, so where's the advantage?
 
You're right Yoshi, the cards would have been seen anyway. I agree that a game loss would be too severe.
 
I think there should have been something done about proper procedure... You show the card to your opponent first, then shuffle the rest of the cards into the deck. Because of the misplay I think a trainer discard with no Basic obtained would have been enough.
 
Adv1sor said:
You're right Yoshi, the cards would have been seen anyway. I agree that a game loss would be too severe.
Click to expand...

I agree about seeing the first seven cards, but as it turned out, the remedy for this situation turned out to be an even greater advantage for my opponent as he was able to search his deck for the Pokemon he was allowed to pull, thereby seeing more than just the seven cards.
 
Team Cook said:
I agree about seeing the first seven cards, but as it turned out, the remedy for this situation turned out to be an even greater advantage for my opponent as he was able to search his deck for the Pokemon he was allowed to pull, thereby seeing more than just the seven cards.
Click to expand...
But that was not necessary, the judge should have done the search for him!
 
Team Cook said:
I agree about seeing the first seven cards, but as it turned out, the remedy for this situation turned out to be an even greater advantage for my opponent as he was able to search his deck for the Pokemon he was allowed to pull, thereby seeing more than just the seven cards.
Click to expand...


You gave him the advantage by allowing him to actually choose a pokemon he has no way of proving he really pulled in those 7 cards. It should have been the judges call to know this and never allowed them to even complete the masterball. But by allowing them to SAY they had 2 other pokemon that they passed over for a Fossil with no proof was uncalled for.

Sorry you were the nice guy but I don't think the judge should have given them the opportunity to even complete masterball. Makes you wonder? If they were able to pull of the win on you with using a pokemon they were going to pass up for a fossil, did someone have an alteramotive/plan. *Most* players know a fossil isn't basic until on the bench, for them to not even show you what they are taking from Masterball before they even shuffled, sounds like trouble to me. Sorry but I think someone was pulling wool over and taking a chance.
 
mewsmom said:
You gave him the advantage by allowing him to actually choose a pokemon he has no way of proving he really pulled in those 7 cards. It should have been the judges call to know this and never allowed them to even complete the masterball. But by allowing them to SAY they had 2 other pokemon that they passed over for a Fossil with no proof was uncalled for.

Sorry you were the nice guy but I don't think the judge should have given them the opportunity to even complete masterball. Makes you wonder? If they were able to pull of the win on you with using a pokemon they were going to pass up for a fossil, did someone have an alteramotive/plan. *Most* players know a fossil isn't basic until on the bench, for them to not even show you what they are taking from Masterball before they even shuffled, sounds like trouble to me. Sorry but I think someone was pulling wool over and taking a chance.
Click to expand...


You know, I didn't think about any of this at the time. I was just really surprised and taken aback by what the judge said, and I thought it put me in a position of having to be a good sport. All I could think was was "Darn, I could have won the game by knocking out that one lonely Pokemon!".

Now that you mention it, it does seem suspicious that my opponent would pull a fossil if they had 2 Pokemon to choose from and no bench. Hmmmm.....

So, are you saying that I'm a sucker??? :mad: I agree :D
 
Team Cook said:
So, are you saying that I'm a sucker??? :mad: I agree :D
Click to expand...

No No your not a sucker. I think your opponnet picked up on your were a fairly new player and was taking advantage of you. Really in my opinion, I wonder how experienced was the judge? To even ask the player, oh what other pokemon did you have and not have any proof. It's not like he ever showed you his cards from the masterball.

It goes back to the same situations with Slowking's Pokepower of Flipping when a player plays a trainer. If the player manipulates their deck faster or before the opponnet can flip for that trainer and the flip works, well then they lost their hand or whatever they used from that trainer. The trainer goes on top of their deck and they don't undo whatever actions they took of playing the trainer. His fault for not playing the card correctly. Just as he didn't show you what pokemon he took from masterball, well sorry bud, you shuffled your hand and no one ever saw what pokemon u actually pulled in those top 7 so you can't complete the masterball.

That play was unreversible and should have been left at that and to never put you in the position of having to judge yourself on being a butthead or being nice. We all learn from experience, just wish it didn't always cost a win to learn.

Cya at the Stadium
 
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Don't forget that Masterball is "may" choose a Pokemon. If he chose MystFossil, he choose incorrectly. It's SO easy to reverse this. Heck, I can find a legal Pokemon (non-Fossil) and STILL not pick any, according to the "may" on the trainer card. Personally, I wouldn't even give a penalty. I'd just make the player shuffle back the Fossil and discard the Masterball without a Pokemon. IMO, the judge should NOT have given the option he did. It was a procedural error (without a warning in my opinion), and MAYBE a caution. Nothing more.

Two mistakes were made.

1. The judge who gave you the BAD option.
2. You, for picking the BAD option.

We all learn from our mistakes, hopefully.


And, since when is it bad sportsmanship to not let your opponent take back a mistake? Bad call, whoever the judge was (if you're facts are straight about this).
 
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Giday

My ruling would've been the Master Ball is toast & discarded.

The fossil taken would be shuffled back into the deck & a Caution for Procedural Error issued to the player.

I agree with other comments that the judge has made a mistake, but then we judges are human as well & although it shouldn't happen .. we all make mistakes when under pressure. Nobody can say they haven't.

A simple error in judgement cost you the game ... what would've happened if it had been a playoff game ...

I hope the judge concerned is a member here, see's this & learns from it.
 
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You shouldn't have agreed. That was your other option. It wouldn't have been "being a hardbutt". You need to crack down HARD on people who make mistakes. If they make that kind of mistake, they obviously shouldn't have beaten you, so you should have disagreed and saw to it that they didn't beat you. They can not prove that their 7 cards had Gastly and Shedinja in them, so why let them get away with their foolish mistake? Especially when you could win the game. Besides, if he was playing you, he probably had a record similar to yours, so he probably had two losses as well. That means he had the same chance of making t16 as you. That chance was slim to none, so you really didn't help him by letting him recover from his foolish mistake.

Not trying to sound harsh towards you, Team Cook, but we need to crack down on these people. Whoever that was, it should go on his "permanant record", and, since the situation was reversable, you should have declined the judge's overly kind actions and made the masterball do nothing, having him shuffle the fossil back into his deck, keeping the masterball in the discard, him not getting anything out of the trainer, showing him who the boss is. Guess who the boss is?

The boss is the player who's good and doesn't make mistakes.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
Since this was Nationals and a procedural error I would have made the player shuffle the fossil in,
discard the Master Ball, and give a warning rather than a caution. If it is a Gym Challenge, Pre-Release,
etc... (other than Worlds or Nationals) then give a caution. Granted this was probably not intentional
but if the player does it again after being corrected then I would be concerned that he is trying to
cheat and gain an advantage over his opponent. After being given a warning if he does it again then
it is a game loss (since this error is not re-windable).
 
Cook:

First of all, the judge should have never put you on the spot. He/she should have ruled improper procedure used on MB, loss of MB effect, fossil gets shuffled back into deck, a caution/warning given to the player (to keep a record of this activity in case he/she does it again) and the play would have continued w/ your opponent having no bench. The judges judge, the players play.

Keith
 
I always find it very amusing when judges ask a player if they are okay with the opponent's misplay... That's not an option you should have at a National Championship, especially in this given situation. It shows weakness on the judge's behalf whenever a penalty is waved to appeal to a player. Yes, you are there to serve the customers, but at the same laying down the law.
-Phil
 
PokePop said:
Well, since you agreed, you agreed.
However, if you had said that you did not agree, then it could have led to the use of the Trainer fizzling with no Pokemon drawn.

As a side note, when pulling a card from your deck that you are going to have to show your opponent, leave it face up right away. If he had done that and not left it face down, the peoblem could have been averted right there.
Click to expand...

I agree with PokePop that's why I play with 3 Mystrious Fossils and 3 Burried Fossils. Burried Fossils are considered Pokémon okay Mystrious Fossils don't count as prizes and Burried Fossils do but still, if your playing a deck that need Mystrious Fossil I would play both that way you can use Trainer cards to get Burried fossil. But you should place them face up if you are going to show your oppenent.
 
OK, so we give the judge a warning, discard the masterball and keep on going....

LOL (although it is only funny in hindsight, like having to face a Cradilly/Armaldo deck twice)

M45
 
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