klinklang v. hydregion
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Otaku
Active Member
Smart people also consider "deck versus deck" and not "cherry-picked scenario versus cherry-picked scenario". What is truly sad is I can't tell if your conclusion is wrong; your reasoning is hard to follow and lacking, but the end results could still be correct. However I now have to do more work by basically carrying out the debate with myself instead of with you. :wink:
Otaku
Active Member
You need to explain your statement more if you don't want it to be dismissed; even if the season proves it correct, not much of what you said comes across as supported enough to have been more than a "lucky guess".
The biggest issue for traditional Shift Gear decks is the dependence upon Special Energy I see in the conventional build, and a deck focused more on actual Metal-Type Pokémon will address that. Still, Klinklang[Plasma] may help your average Dark Trance deck.
How so?
By hurting Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks more. If the Kinklang deck works, the aforementioned deck must now rely on back-up hitters that are not Pokémon-EX, and even with future cards, there is a problem; many good options are Metal-Weak. Not all of them, but the ones I would fancy, the ones that contribute more to the deck than just "...in case I face a Safeguard-like effect."
If Blastoise/Keldeo-EX decks are lessened, then Dark Trance decks likely can afford room for Giratina EX, preferably two copies. It hits just hard enough that Dark Trance decks would still have a reasonable chance of winning. After all, both decks are going to be maxing out or nearly maxing out Max Potion and Pokémon Catcher (which is why rcxd999's earlier comment was too vague despite seeming to have details).
Lastly, don't discredit rogue decks. Individually they aren't going to be a significant threat, but collectively they almost always are. Quad Sigilyph wasn't an obvious play because if it hit enough other rogue decks or prepared decks, it was going to struggle. It didn't. One more player that had considered it or a deck like it a threat, and the most infamous Quad Sigilyph tournament win likely wouldn't have happened.
I've got a fun Darkrai EX/Excadrill/Sableye deck. Next to no chance I can make it work against Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks; solid against most others with a few discrepancies. Something takes that deck out of the equation, and the deck goes from "fun" to potential winning rogue deck.
Always have to consider the ramifications for the full format, and odds are, someone can tell me something important I have overlooked for the example I just gave... oh yeah, Landorus EX would also almost certainly clobber my little fun deck. :lol:
The biggest issue for traditional Shift Gear decks is the dependence upon Special Energy I see in the conventional build, and a deck focused more on actual Metal-Type Pokémon will address that. Still, Klinklang[Plasma] may help your average Dark Trance deck.
How so?
By hurting Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks more. If the Kinklang deck works, the aforementioned deck must now rely on back-up hitters that are not Pokémon-EX, and even with future cards, there is a problem; many good options are Metal-Weak. Not all of them, but the ones I would fancy, the ones that contribute more to the deck than just "...in case I face a Safeguard-like effect."
If Blastoise/Keldeo-EX decks are lessened, then Dark Trance decks likely can afford room for Giratina EX, preferably two copies. It hits just hard enough that Dark Trance decks would still have a reasonable chance of winning. After all, both decks are going to be maxing out or nearly maxing out Max Potion and Pokémon Catcher (which is why rcxd999's earlier comment was too vague despite seeming to have details).
Lastly, don't discredit rogue decks. Individually they aren't going to be a significant threat, but collectively they almost always are. Quad Sigilyph wasn't an obvious play because if it hit enough other rogue decks or prepared decks, it was going to struggle. It didn't. One more player that had considered it or a deck like it a threat, and the most infamous Quad Sigilyph tournament win likely wouldn't have happened.
I've got a fun Darkrai EX/Excadrill/Sableye deck. Next to no chance I can make it work against Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks; solid against most others with a few discrepancies. Something takes that deck out of the equation, and the deck goes from "fun" to potential winning rogue deck.
Always have to consider the ramifications for the full format, and odds are, someone can tell me something important I have overlooked for the example I just gave... oh yeah, Landorus EX would also almost certainly clobber my little fun deck. :lol:
Otaku, just in case you didn't see it, this deck is a complete steel type deck with 2 Keldeo as the only non-steel types so there is no traditional weakness anymore. Even though Dark Trance and Plasma Klinklang are close to the same, the only thing dividing them is that only Hydregion and the uncommon, red face powder Sigilyph which Plasma Klinklang easily handles both of them. Quad Sigilyph is still around but it hasn't won any tournaments. Your rogue Darkrai/Excadrill/Sableye deck has a problem against this deck as well. I don't know which Excadrill you're using but if it's the EPO one then yeah might be a small threat but Anyways Sableye gets knock out by both main attackers, Excadrill gets knocked out by Cobalion Ex and Darkrai Ex, who I assume to be your main attacker can't attack. It's not certain that Landorus would clobber your deck because I played Hammertime, almost the same deck as yours but instead of Excadrill as my tech I used Keldeo and used Gold Potion instead of Computer Search and added 3 normal Potions, and I battled a Landorus deck. It was close but I beat his 3 Landorus with my two Darkrai and he was using the Champion list for Landorus/Mewtwo and had his friend helping him through the whole thing while I didn't have anybody.
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Hmm, I wonder what the what won cities thread has to say?
I guess Singapore doesn't count either.
Problem with attacking with Hydregion is (1) that you lose 2 energy and (2) you leave it wide open so that Cobalion Ex can attack and discard the special energy attached leaving Hydregion at a horrible disadvantage while Plasma Klinklang doesn't suffer as much as your Pokemon as they don't have energy to attack. When you try to talk about how Hydregion weakens Plasma Klinklang you're pretty much talking about attacking with Hydregion over everything else leaving Plasma Klinklang to charge up it's attackers and don't forget Pokemon Catcher which could put a end to Hydregion line but this could also affect the Klinklang line but Klinklang still doesn't suffer as much as Hydregion as Hydregion would of had energy on it compared to Klinklang who would of had none. The difficulty of setting up a stage 2 depends on the deck and what the stage 2 is for example, Blastoise is incredibly easy to set when in Keldeo/Blastoise. From quite a few lists Klinklang is probably easy to set up compared to Hydregion which I played the deck and found it's more horrible than I thought.
Otaku
Active Member
rcxd999, not sure why you brought up Weakness. My main point was that if you have too narrow a focus, you'll miss how changes affect the rest of the format... which then come back to affect the match-up you want to predict.
If Dark Trance decks don't need to worry as much about Blastoise/Keldeo-EX decks, the slot or two normally spent countering that with something like Shaymin EX can be used for Giratina EX. Giratina EX can use Shred to bypass Plasma Steel and 2HKO anything in the Klinklang deck. Even if the match-up is still in the Klinklang/Klinklang [Plasma] deck's favor, Giratina EX still helps the Dark Trance deck.
As for the rogue deck comment, my deck opens with Hammer spam. It is not unusual for me to go down by four Prizes before shifting to sweepers... but by that time a lot of decks are struggling for Energy. No, I'm not bragging; already admitted it auto-loses to Blastoise/Keldeo EX; it is an annoying deck for those that rely on heavy Special Energy and/or Energy moving Abilities. Plus, it isn't "my" deck in particular that I wanted to focus on, but the "rogue element" that one always has to prepare for.
If Dark Trance decks don't need to worry as much about Blastoise/Keldeo-EX decks, the slot or two normally spent countering that with something like Shaymin EX can be used for Giratina EX. Giratina EX can use Shred to bypass Plasma Steel and 2HKO anything in the Klinklang deck. Even if the match-up is still in the Klinklang/Klinklang [Plasma] deck's favor, Giratina EX still helps the Dark Trance deck.
As for the rogue deck comment, my deck opens with Hammer spam. It is not unusual for me to go down by four Prizes before shifting to sweepers... but by that time a lot of decks are struggling for Energy. No, I'm not bragging; already admitted it auto-loses to Blastoise/Keldeo EX; it is an annoying deck for those that rely on heavy Special Energy and/or Energy moving Abilities. Plus, it isn't "my" deck in particular that I wanted to focus on, but the "rogue element" that one always has to prepare for.
psychup2034
New Member
rcxd999 knows more of the game than the rest of us do. Whatever he says must be true! He can't be wrong!
Otaku, Just asking but how does this deck have to worry about Keldeo/Blastoise more than Hydregion? As far as I know, the only thing that can attack would be Blastoise itself and the uncommon Kyurem NVI. You call Shaymin Ex a counter but Virizion NVI is pretty much the same card but has a lot of advantages like it's resistance to water, attacks that don't rely on prizes and the number of prizes taken when it's knocked out. Shaymin doesn't have water resistance meaning It can be donked by a 3 energy Keldeo. Your right about Giratina Ex, but again as I explained with non-Ex attackers, just use Cobalion NVI to force the opponent to retreat. Your deck actually sounds pretty good. I played Hammertime at my tournament and 3 people had Keldeo/Blastoise decks. I beat 2/3 of them. So I think your deck might go well against that quite a few times. Kirbyking, as for energy acceleration, I was thinking of using the same energy acceleration that everyone intended for Landorus, the Ether/Pokedex combo. Sure a Klinklang could be knocked out during the match but the problem is which one? The deck plays both Shift Gear Klinklang and Plasma Klinklang and the opponent can only knock one of them out and by the sounds of things the Pokemon that can do that in 1 turn seem to make their deck struggle later on so really when a Klinklang is knocked out the opponent suffers more than the player on terms of speed play in their deck. psychup, I doubt even though that I've played since the game started, that I know more than all of you. I do make mistakes, we all do, so I'm sometimes like everyone else.
Then you had a bad decklist. My Hydriegon list had ~80% chance of turn 3 Hydregion, and a 50% chance of turn 2. You have to setup TWO Klingklangs. I only need Hydregion, and can use Tropical Beach/Sableye early game to setup. Hydreigon is better than Klingklang because it can attack. I can hit for 140 and destroy your Klingklangs while you use Cobalion Ex and remove ONE Blend, then I 2-shot you with Darkrai.
Someone doesn't know what sarcasm is.
psychup2034
New Member
No way! I think you're better than the rest of us. At least, you're certainly better than I am! You were able to beat Blastoise/Keldeo with Hammertime in 2 out of 3 games. That's impressive!
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Otaku
Active Member
To reiterate, you must consider how the status of one deck affects the rest of the format.
If dual Klinklang decks become popular, they will be very challenging for Blastoise/Keldeo EX builds to defeat. This could cause a decrease in the play of Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks...
...which is very helpful for Pokémon that are hurt by the prominence of Blastoise/Keldeo-EX decks. Like Dark Trance (at least some) Dark Trance decks.
Virizion can only hit for 80 or 160, and the latter requires your opponent fails to produce a Pokémon Catcher or simple score a KO against it. Keldeo EX just needs to have four :water: attached for Secret Sword to OHKO against it. Virizion is pretty much only useful for an early offensive, when you're using it to OHKO Squirtle (provided you can force them Active). Mid-to-late game, the Blastoise/Keldeo EX player should be OHKOing it before it can hit for more than 80.
Shaymin EX suffers mightily for being only useful once your opponent has taken a few Prizes, and for being worth two Prizes while also being an easy OHKO. However, if you can time it right it can be a huge help; just two Prizes taken by your opponent, and it OHKOs either Keldeo EX or Blastoise.
Sadly, what testing I've been able to do hasn't proven that useful for either, but I mostly brought it up as an example of a slot that would be freed up for Dark Trance decks is Klinklang decks diminished the presence of Blastoise/Keldeo EX enough.
Remember the deck you're facing; if the Dark Trance deck itself has room for Keldeo EX, Rush In/Dark Cloak/Dark Trance means Giratina EX is back up and attacking. A second Giratina EX (or other attacker) means the same thing. You are also throwing up something with three whole Energy that a semi-desperate Hydreigon can attack to OHKO. Remember, if all your Energy has been discarded from a KO, you will struggle to mount a counterattack to exploit the exposed Hydreigon.
Which is not to say that it suddenly becomes an easy match for a Dark Trance deck... just explaining that it probably won't be one-sided unless circumstances prevent Dark Trance decks from running something to bypass protective effects and you can be so fast that you can re-energize to discard Energy from an exposed Hydreigon (implying it was used to attack the previous turn).
Doubtful, but thanks for the compliment nonetheless. I just know it is a very fun deck to play, though probably not for my opponent's to face if my strategy isn't thwarted by the usual suspects.
Space will be at more of a premium for your deck, however, than for something built around a few Basic Pokémon. Ether/Pokédex may limit how much Special Energy you can effectively run.
Whatever one the Klinklang player needs more.
Take the Dark Trance match-up I think we are still discussing. If you take out the protective one, now it reverts to the traditional Shift Gears versus Dark Trance deck. Darkrai EX can start hitting your Active while softening up the Bench. If you can't set-up a second in two turns, your opponent will likely clobber whatever you send up, or worst, be able to take down your Shift Gear Klinklang, leaving you constantly with an incomplete combo.Now my post has a lot of Theorymon in it, but then again we are mostly dealing with hypothetical match-ups based on assumed cards for the next set.
Wow... I just realized I haven't even been factoring in Hypnotoxic Laser damage yet. @_@
I just realized there might be a better deck than this, Crobat/Virbank which I've made lists and it looks pretty effective and would destroy this deck because (1) it's not an Ex, (2) as AzUK explained this deck needs to set up TWO Klinklang as most decks only need to set up 1. (3) Crobat would knock out or waste this deck's switches with ease and (4) as soon as Plasma Klinklang is knocked out this deck is pretty much at a disadvantage from all decks. So Landorus/Mewtwo with the right cards can easily defeat this deck. I realized that I was giving Plasma Klinklang too much credit for the ability. This deck might be good as a fun deck but now I can't think of this deck being competitive. psychup, It was just luck not much else besides I just used Bouffalant as the tech which also helped.