Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Lose a match on time, due to permitted bathroom break?

losjackal

Technical Administrator
This advice was just posted on another Web site:

Did you know that if you take a bathroom break in the middle of a match, you automatically LOSE if the series goes to time?

The Rules document does give this direction for a judge to use to determine a winner for an unresolved match: "If one player was late to the match or was away from the match without a judge's permission for any period of time during the round, that player loses the match."

So my question is, can a judge permit a bathroom break, yet enforce a penalty of automatically losing the match if time runs out?
 
I would never enforce the absent rule for a permitted break. I would allow an extension of the match when the player returned. Now if a player just arbitrarily went without permission, then yes, I would enforce the loss.

Side note, I think that the loss should count for the game and not the match since we went to Bo3. IE, if you leave during any game, then the game that time is called, that game is considered lost for the player who left, so if it is game 3, then match goes to opponent, same as game 1, and if its in game 2, then its either a 2-0 or a 1-1 tie.
 
The loss counts for the match. This is explicitly stated in the TCG Rules and Formats document:

8.3. Determining the Outcome of an Unresolved, Best-of-Three Match
Use the following criteria, in order, to determine the outcome of a match that is unresolved after the final turn has ended. After one of the criteria has been met, none of the others are applied.
(1) If one player was late to the match or was away from the match without a judge’s permission for any period of time during the round, that player loses the match. The judge must have been made aware of this absence in advance of the end of the match. If both players meet this criterion, ignore this tiebreaker.
<insert Game 1/2/3 rules here>

Although 8.3 is for Swiss play, (1) above is also listed in 9.3, which is the Top Cut rules.


Anyway, I would never apply this rule if the bathroom break was "permitted." Keep in mind that I differentiate between "permitted" and "acknowledged" - permitted is you're giving them a free pass, in which case I would not apply it, but I will also never do that unless there's some pre-known condition or it's a special circumstance (like a nosebleed). I will only ever "acknowledge" it, where I tell them to go if they really need to (and have a judge watch the table to make sure nothing happens while they're gone), but make sure they understand that this rule is a thing and I will apply it.

You should have gone to the bathroom between rounds.
 
I understand part of the purpose of this forum is to encourage best practices everywhere, and to help unify the rules so that I don't get a different answer in two different places. In this case, I most definitely have gotten different answers from different areas of the country. There are some who hold Mystery Thing's point of view, and some who've never heard of not permitting a bathroom break. This isn't just local CC's, these are Regional events that.

That said, particularly with the trend towards not having a lunch break and with Best of 3, I struggle as a player to agree with the hard stance of "I won't approve it." I, however, can see from an organizational point of view where that point of view, regrettably, makes sense.

Ramblings aside, the fact that there's two different answers in two replies tells me there's a consensus that needs to be reached. It'd be nice, as a player, to reliably know how this is going to be handled.
 
That said, particularly with the trend towards not having a lunch break and with Best of 3, I struggle as a player to agree with the hard stance of "I won't approve it." I, however, can see from an organizational point of view where that point of view, regrettably, makes sense.

I have a question about this, is this really the case? I didn't go to a tournament (Fantasy Flight Games's X-Wing, not Pokémon) because there wasn't a lunch break, Should I avoid larger tournaments?

Some people have medical conditions that requires to heat regularly (Diabetes, or to take medication), it should be considered in the planing, an event where people can't eat and that lasts throughout the day is not acceptable.

Having said that, I'd be inclined to be indulgent on the player, as I know that sometimes, you have to go.
 
I have a question about this, is this really the case? I didn't go to a tournament (Fantasy Flight Games's X-Wing, not Pokémon) because there wasn't a lunch break, Should I avoid larger tournaments?

Some people have medical conditions that requires to heat regularly (Diabetes, or to take medication), it should be considered in the planing, an event where people can't eat and that lasts throughout the day is not acceptable.

Having said that, I'd be inclined to be indulgent on the player, as I know that sometimes, you have to go.

It's not for this thread, but yes, as a necessary evil of the 50+3 Bo3 system, later Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds all have not had lunch breaks, with the premise that onsite food between rounds is sufficient. I'm quite sure that'd be a topic that'd generate discussion in a thread of its own.

---


On the organizational side of things, I can see that the time extensions can add up, but my question for those involved in the operational side of things: Do those extra two minutes from a time extension really add two minutes to the event? I'd be inclined to think that overlap with match slip entry would eat the extra two minutes down to a negligible time period.
 
Oh, thank you Mystery Thing, I was mistaken.

Pokejovan, if there is a special needs that needs attention, then the staff will do what is necessary to make sure those needs are met. If a player who was diabetic needed something to eat, that match should be paused for the player to get something, same with medication.

King Piplup, yes actually having the extenstions CAN add time to the round because you would need a judge at the table to give the new time limit call, and then they would need to get caught up on the judge meeting that judges have between rounds. Note i say CAN because it is possible that the match can end without needing the extension.
 
Keep in mind that what I said only applies for something in the middle of a round. If you just finish a gruelling X+3 that took a while past time and as a tournament staff we're trying to spin rounds up right away, but you need to go to the bathroom, of course I will let you go before you find your seat and I'll issue an extension if required. It being physically impossible to get to the bathroom, do what you need to do, and get back for the next round will not go punished (in my books). Heck, even if you did have time but chose to leave it, so long as you tell me you're going to the bathroom before the round begins, I'll probably let you go and issue an extension. I was only talking about somebody being all "I need to pee!" 20 minutes into a round.

In the case of somebody being diabetic (for example), that would be a pre-existing condition and my "rules" for that will always be flexible.
 
Devil's advocate here guys ..... what if you're diabetic and have a horrible bladder and a broken leg? Ha ha. No joke though. Seriously, I know someone that's like that. As a judge, I'd be wondering where I draw the line. Someone with those afflictions (like me .... I newly found out not long ago that I'm a diabetic) have a certain amount of bodily knowledge and realize that certain situations might be somewhat stressful upon their bodies. Even though judging staff try to be as empathetic as they can under circumstances that they have to deal with, hopefully people know themselves well enough to not make it a habit of disrupting events unnecessarily as well.
 
So long as a player asks a judge, I would always excuse a bathroom break. I tell them "Go fast!" and I can't remember a player being gone from the table for over 2 minutes. If it is under 2 minutes, I don't give a time extension, so time extensions are rare. 95% of requests to use the bathroom come from Juniors and Seniors, and they always run/walk really fast.
 
Geoff: The original question arose from a case of a Top 4 match with was an hour or more long.
In the case of a match lasting that long, I certainly would give permission for a bathroom break. I would not want to have to explain to the venue why we need a "clean up in aisle 3", if you know what I mean.
 
Question. lets say this happens in swiss round and after the +3 turns in game 1 or 3 they still haven't found a winner of the game. Does the game then find a tie as the fitting ending or does the "sloppy" player lose the round?
 
Question. lets say this happens in swiss round and after the +3 turns in game 1 or 3 they still haven't found a winner of the game. Does the game then find a tie as the fitting ending or does the "sloppy" player lose the round?

If they were away without permission, then the win goes to the other player.
If they got permission, then they also got an extension. If that extension +3 turns is over, then it is a tie.
I would give permission in almost all cases. I don't know what a player's medical/physical needs are and I'm not going to interrogate them. Given that, I expect a return in a reasonable amount of time and if too much time is taken, then I might start the clock again and consider a player late of they took too long to return.
It's a balance of the needs of the individual and the needs of the event.
 
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