"Magic" Deck Cutting Legality

[yoyofsho16]

I played a REAAALLY notable player at Regionals last year (I'm talking one of the first names you think of when you think of elite players), and he did this little trick in almost every game just as a luck thing:

He would take the bottom 7 cards of the newly shuffled deck and put them on top at the beginning of the game.

I did this as a gimmick to an opponent at a CC, and our PTO looked down and said, "That shouldn't be allowed, that's not random."

Is this legal? It's not random, but if the deck is properly shuffled, why does it matter?

 

[Rogue Archetype]

you can't count cards on the cut.

you can shuffle or make stacks, but you can't count out the cards.

 

[Mach]

So... That means my secret cutting technique of putting the top card of the deck on the bottom is illegal?

 

[PokePop]

R_A is correct. Putting one or a specific number of cards on top is not a legal cut.

 

[tehmoe]

R_A is correct. Putting one or a specific number of cards on top is not a legal cut.

technically all numbers are specific numbers because they can all be counted... i can look at your deck from the side and count the bottom 7 and cut from the top so that only the bottom 7 go on top, its not hard... so therefore all cutting should be illegal right? pointless rule?

 

[Mew]

technically all numbers are specific numbers because they can all be counted... i can look at your deck from the side and count the bottom 7 and cut from the top so that only the bottom 7 go on top, its not hard... so therefore all cutting should be illegal right? pointless rule?

Please don't be rediculous.

And yeah, I've seen stuff like this a few times. I proceed to shuffle their deck.

 

[PokePop]

technically all numbers are specific numbers because they can all be counted... i can look at your deck from the side and count the bottom 7 and cut from the top so that only the bottom 7 go on top, its not hard... so therefore all cutting should be illegal right? pointless rule?

But... then... you... are... counting... a... specific... number.

You can't count a specific number.
This is not rocket science.

 

[tehmoe]

But... then... you... are... counting... a... specific... number.

You can't count a specific number.
This is not rocket science.

ok so then comes the point of you proving i counted a specific number, can it be? and by that i mean without assumption of me counting.

 

[Kayle]

Apparently, PokePop, it is rocket science.

@tehmoe: Since you are taking this like Rocket Science, don't argue with it. Everyone who argues with the laws of physics loses.

I would know, I'm currently in an advanced Physics class. And I can argue logically all day. "Well, if you're pulling down with a force of X and the fulcrum is at 1/4 the length of your ruler, then..."

Or, in this case, even if you count 7 cards off the bottom and put them on top of the deck, they are still shuffled, random, and therefore unknown. The integrity of the randomization is intact.

But the laws of [del]physics[/del] Pokemon state that you cannot count the number of cards you cut.

Don't argue.

 

[tehmoe]

Apparently, PokePop, it is rocket science.

@tehmoe: Since you are taking this like Rocket Science, don't argue with it. Everyone who argues with the laws of physics loses.

I would know, I'm currently in an advanced Physics class. And I can argue logically all day. "Well, if you're pulling down with a force of X and the fulcrum is at 1/4 the length of your ruler, then..."

Or, in this case, even if you count 7 cards off the bottom and put them on top of the deck, they are still shuffled, random, and therefore unknown. The integrity of the randomization is intact.

But the laws of [del]physics[/del] Pokemon state that you cannot count the number of cards you cut.

Don't argue.

The fact that you're in Advance Physics doesn't really have to do with anything pokemon-wise nor is it necessary to prove your point. I could say that I am in Calculus III, proving that my logic is sound, but i didn't cause i know there isn't a point to it.

Side note : Also, if it wasn't for arguing the laws of physics, then we wouldn't be where we are today. We would have plenty of terrible hypotheses become theories and eventually laws that will be contradictory and so forth, etc...

If that is simply the rules, than it simply is so, however, I didn't see anyone say it was a RULE and that's why it can't be done would be a different case.

I mean i can be technical all day, but of course i'm just doing this to play Devil's Advocate.

 

[Kayle]

i'm just doing this to play Devil's Advocate.

And my entire point, aside from the clever sarcasm you tragically missed, is that playing Devil's Advocate when TRCT has already given you the answer is a really, really bad idea.

 

[Sandslash7]

What if the scenario is that a player, without counting, lifted the deck to cut it and only placed one card at the top, due to the placement of the fingers on the deck/bendyness of the cards etc.

I have done this occasionally, so would that be considered an illegal cut? What if it's 3 cards?

I guess the main factor is if you are counting a specific number of cards one at a time, that is what constitutes illegal cuts, am I correct?

 

[Team_Rocket_Prodigy]

And my entire point, aside from the clever sarcasm you tragically missed, is that playing Devil's Advocate when TRCT has already given you the answer is a really, really bad idea.

I strongly disagree and think that you are taking this situation and responding to another persons comments rather immaturely. Some people debate for the sake of debate and there is nothing wrong with that it can end in greater knowledge. I also partially agree with him. I personally have done some magic tricks way back when like any other normal kid and there are simple ways to gather the bottom 7 cards and place them on top simply with practice. Therefore there would be no obvious way to prosecute. Also if a player shuffles the owner of the deck has the right to cut after your opponent shuffles, and with the previous practice you could move the bottom 7 cards to the top easily. Though they would be a different 7 cards this is irrelevant the point is it is doable and probably should not be banned due to the reason that if my logic is true it cannot be outlawed or dealt with in any just manner. This is not rocket science we are talking about 60 playing cards and how they are ordered or manipulated lol so bringing physics into this or so is honestly just a waste of time. But in any stance I think this conversation is rather pointless unless someone wants to practice cheating lol, as for cutting 7 cards for good luck I would just say get over, these are the kinds of things that end up making us use non bordered sleeves and clear rounded 6 sided dice. Its just like the basic situation of a kid chewing gum in class and putting it on the bottom of his desk and leaving his rapper on the floor. Then gum is prohibited from the classroom because 1 person ruined it for the rest of us.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Are we .... REALLY Arguing about this?? Really?

The definition of a "cut" is "any two random stacks.

As long as you grab "some cards" of the deck and put "whatever is left" on the top, you've cut the cards without a blatent card count.

IF you, happen to, end up putting 7 cards on the top .. so be it.

However, you CANNOT grab a deck and, literally, go "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.. there" and call that a random stack.

To some, that action would just be quirky, fun, and different (I get that..)
HOWEVER, if we allowed you to do this, then somebody would figure out some sort of way to invent, yet, another way to cheat.

Remember, you're being offered the cut as a display of FAIR PLAY!
When being offered a cut, your opponent is saying "I have nothing to hide, you can FURTHER RANDOMIZE my cards to ensure the game is fair."

We're just trying to get you to play a game by the rules folks. You don't write Hasbro and argue the rules on the rule sheet right? You read them and play by the rules because it's fun to see if you can win WITHIN the parameters of the boundaries you're given... right?

Morale of the Story = Just.. play the game. Have fun. Don't overcomplicate things.

 

[nnaann]

Morale of the Story = Just.. play the game. Have fun. Don't overcomplicate things.

QFT, I Can't believe there has been so much debate..about this

 

[Kayle]

Some people debate for the sake of debate and there is nothing wrong with that

Simply put, yes there is; a very potent and well-accomplished Head Judge has told you NO.

That is the answer.

There is no point in pushing this any further.

 

[SLOW DECK]

What advantage Could a player have in cutting this way?

That is the real question.

Answer. Many folks are "sloppy" shufflers, and will often reveal the bottom cards of their deck. He might have seen the bottom card of your deck, and because it wasn't a good starting card... say Nite Maintence.... And by cutting to make sure that bottom card is in your hand, he might believe he is knows you are going to have one bad card to start with, or it might be a neutral card say a basic energy, he might just want to know what is one of your starting cards. If it was a Luxury ball that he saw, maybe he would give you a deeper cut. Again, if this player was bent this way, that might be his logic...
. or he just likes doing goofing thing but truely that but he doesn't know what your bottom card in deck is.

In big games, vs opponents I don't know (who I don't know might pull these tricks), I will hand shuffle, pile shuffle, hand shuffle, then.. like a LAS VEGAS dealer, do one more shuffle or center cuts and focusing on keeping the cards flat and near the table so to not reveal any of my cards, so that my opponent would not know the bottom cards.

Also, in the same light, I think cutting any deck to the bottom card should card(s) should be grounds of refusal of that cut. If you ending your shuffling by not revealing your bottom card, then you know it isn't an issue because the bottom is random and unknown. But if out of the blue, someone want's to cut me the bottom card of my deck..... judges... something could be up.

 

[Deoxys Cool Form]

QFT, I Can't believe there has been so much debate..about this

Stop trying to stir things up! :lol:

This is just OTT all together.

 

[yoyofsho16]

So is it ALSO illegal to just put the bottom card on top of the deck?

 

[Victory Bell]

What advantage Could a player have in cutting this way?

That is the real question.

Answer. Many folks are "sloppy" shufflers, and will often reveal the bottom cards of their deck.

Here is an other answer. There are also people who are very good cheaters. They take their terrible start and put it about 8 cards down. This is so when there opponent cuts, probably deap in the deck, they wont get their unownQ start. And if they dont cut, it still wont be started with.

People know this and drop seven cards so their opponent will get a bad start if they cheat.:nonono:

Not to stay on this but I dont see how grabing the top card and putting it under is illegle or the bottom one for that matter. Does that mean I can (I used as a general "I") put my Q on the bottom and never start with it? That doesent make any sense.