Massive use of foreign cards

[yoshi1001]

Ria, the situation you're describing is completely different. You're describing an area where people have to cross language barriers on a daily basis. It's a totally different case when you live in an environment where the nearest foreign country may be hundreds of miles away and 99% of what you do is in one language. To expect that people will know a language that they may never use outside of that context is simply unreasonable.

Similarly, the motives (even if no ill will is intended) are completely different. I'm willing to bet that the deck in SteveP's example could have been constucted from English cards, whereas as you have stated you have no local language alternative.

 

[SteveP]

If the POP Tournament Rules are indeed only referring to misrepresentations of card text, an obvious form of cheating, then I'll concede my point. However, that's not how I'm interpreting it. Misrepresenting card text is ONE EXAMPLE of how you can gain an advantage. There are other ways you can gain an advantage, all of which MAY point to cheating.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I think people have a very wrong impression about Europe.
Most people are NOT crossing language barriers, even if the neighbour country is only 200 miles away.

Most of our kids do NOT speak another language untill they enter high school starting to learn 2-3 other languages.
And believe me you will not learn to speak/read those fluent that way. It's only giving you a basic knowledge of any foreign language.

The fact that most NA people NEVER have to speak anything else as English, doesn't freeguard them (or putting them in a disadvantage) while playing against somebody with ANY kind of foreign cards.
It shows me only that we are more creative in how to solve a language/text problem.
My kids normally shouldn't have to speak anything else as Dutch, but still they are able to play/manage in other countries.
And if my kids can, why can't others. They are only 11 and 13 years old and no Super-kids orso.

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Also, this player originally had a small binder with all the translations. It took much time, was distracting, and had the potential for cheating, each time he laid down his hand, opened his binder, and retrieved a card.

With so many translation cards and actual-played cards in the play area, it was indeed very distracting and confusing for me as a judge. There is really no need for this massive use of foreign cards in serious competition.

Are you saying the player who "owned/played " the foreign cards even didn't know how to play them???
In that case it's different. I assumed the player using the foreign cards knew what they are doing, I thought it was more about the opponent needing to read the translations.

 

[SteveP]

I think people have a very wrong impression about Europe.
Most people are NOT crossing language barriers, even if the neighbour country is only 200 miles away.

Most of our kids do NOT speak another language untill they enter high school starting to learn 2-3 other languages.
And believe me you will not learn to speak/read those fluent that way. It's only giving you a basic knowledge of any foreign language.

The fact that most NA people NEVER have to speak anything else as English, doesn't freeguard them (or putting them in a disadvantage) while playing against somebody with ANY kind of foreign cards.
It shows me only that we are more creative in how to solve a language/text problem.
My kids normally shouldn't have to speak anything else as Dutch, but still they are able to play/manage in other countries.
And if my kids can, why can't others. They are only 11 and 13 years old and no Super-kids orso.

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Are you saying the player who "owned/played " the foreign cards even didn't know how to play them???
In that case it's different. I assumed the player using the foreign cards knew what they are doing, I thought it was more about the opponent needing to read the translations.

I will agree that there can be exceptions to the rule, your situation included.

Yes, the player who used the deck knew his cards. But others didn't, including MANY novice players. This player was definately an advanced player.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I will agree that there can be exceptions to the rule, your situation included.

Yes, the player who used the deck knew his cards. But others didn't, including MANY novice players. This player was definately an advanced player.

Novice player = not experienced I assume?
In that case most times they need to pick up ANY card to read them, simply because they don't know them.
If translation cards are in a binder (or as we do it in different sleeves aside in a pile on the table) I don't see a problem. It would eat time anyway.

 

[Dark_Mewtwo]

Yes, this thread is an interesting one but I want to make sure that this does not go the wrong way. We have U.S. players going abroad and playing the game of Pokemon with English cards in Europe (Jim M. actually played and won in Vienna, so I am told). A player from another country should be able to play in one of our tournaments and not feel or be intimidated.

The game is a language unto itself that defies the barriers that verbal communication provide. Because the cards are printed in many different languages, we learn to recognize these cards regardless of the language spoken (and written). This is how the World Championship is conducted (although players are encouraged to use English cards). I have had the privilege to judge games where I could not speak directly with either of the players. I had to recognize and understand each and every card. I had to follow every move.

I am not asking this of you but when you put limits on the number of cards in a language, you put restrictions on these types of activities. If someone shows up from Japan, they should be able to play an all Japanese deck with translations. And once you allow this, you cannot say that a player must have a certain number of cards in English.

Randy
Who has shown up at tournaments all over the country and hopes to do so in other countries one day.

 

[yoshi1001]

Lia,

Perhaps I should have phrased things differently. What if you went next door and for no apparent reason your neighbor suddenly started talking to you in Swahili, handed you a translation dictionary and somehow expected you to follow along despite the fact you knew full well that he/she was perfecly capable of speaking Dutch?

I think that more accurately describes the situation here.

 

[SteveP]

Ria,

Perhaps I should have phrased things differently. What if you went next door and for no apparent reason your neighbor suddenly started talking to you in Swahili, handed you a translation dictionary and somehow expected you to follow along despite the fact you knew full well that he/she was perfecly capable of speaking Dutch?

I think that more accurately describes the situation here.

You verbalized my exact thoughts.

BTW, isn't her name Lia?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Perhaps I should have phrased things differently. What if you went next door and for no apparent reason your neighbor suddenly started talking to you in Swahili, handed you a translation dictionary and somehow expected you to follow along despite the fact you knew full well that he/she was perfecly capable of speaking Dutch?

I think that more accurately describes the situation here.

No it doesn't.
But in case my neighbor did and it was according rules, I would have dealed with it.

And what advantage would he gain (speaking game wise)? None I would say, it would be more in his disadvantage to be honest.
It might be eating up HIS time (he might need to play) because of HIS choise, and he couldn't NEVER complain about that.
There are always 2 sides.

And yes my name is Lia, but some use Leah, or Ria I am used to that and I know most times they are directing something towards me.

 

[PokePop]

If I where a judge I would have ruled it illegal a few foreign cards are okay but almost a whole deck that's rediculous

You can't do that. It's a legal deck per the rules.

Personally, I would inform the player that I would be granting his opponent any time extension they required due to having to read his cards. And I would be hard pressed to grant him time extensions if he felt he needed them since any time crunch would be mostly due to his use of all these foreign cards.

Therefore, he should hopefully realize that the only player he would be putting at a disadvantage would be himself.

 

[SteveP]

Yes, this thread is an interesting one but I want to make sure that this does not go the wrong way. We have U.S. players going abroad and playing the game of Pokemon with English cards in Europe (Jim M. actually played and won in Vienna, so I am told). A player from another country should be able to play in one of our tournaments and not feel or be intimidated.

The game is a language unto itself that defies the barriers that verbal communication provide. Because the cards are printed in many different languages, we learn to recognize these cards regardless of the language spoken (and written). This is how the World Championship is conducted (although players are encouraged to use English cards). I have had the privilege to judge games where I could not speak directly with either of the players. I had to recognize and understand each and every card. I had to follow every move.

I am not asking this of you but when you put limits on the number of cards in a language, you put restrictions on these types of activities. If someone shows up from Japan, they should be able to play an all Japanese deck with translations. And once you allow this, you cannot say that a player must have a certain number of cards in English.

Randy
Who has shown up at tournaments all over the country and hopes to do so in other countries one day.

I don't condemn the use of foreign language cards in multi-lingual tournaments or while traveling to distance countries. Let me be clear on that.

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Side note. Are there any BANG! players out there? If so, you know how language-independant the cards are. The cards are printed once, and the rules are printed in the various languages. Players who know the card symbols have an advantage, but that advantage is NOT language dependent. Pokemon does NOT currently enjoy that ability, though it's probably pretty darn close.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Just Curious

Let say I show up at any Event you (SteveP) are headjudge.
And 75% of my deck consists out of German (or French whatever) cards.
I do have an English translation of them, so I do have a perfect legal deck.

Would you "accuse" me of a possible attempt to cheat/gain advantage?

 

[yoshi1001]

Just Curious

Let say I show up at any Event you (SteveP) are headjudge.
And 75% of my deck consists out of German (or French whatever) cards.
I do have an English translation of them, so I do have a perfect legal deck.

Would you "accuse" me of a possible attempt to cheat/gain advantage?

No. The circumstances are substantially dissimilar, though.

1) You come from an area where few English cards are available (and since, as you say, there are no Dutch cards, it would be unreasonable to ask you to make a copy of your deck for each country you might have to play in).
2) You play in an older age group where players are more aware of the cards (and, arguably, there are fewer cards which need knowing)

 

[SteveP]

Just Curious

Let say I show up at any Event you (SteveP) are headjudge.
And 75% of my deck consists out of German (or French whatever) cards.
I do have an English translation of them, so I do have a perfect legal deck.

Would you "accuse" me of a possible attempt to cheat/gain advantage?

No Lia. You're OK. Special circumstances apply. Like Mike said, I might have to extend your matches to allow your opponent time to read. That's actually what I almost did in this situation at our tournament - extend the matches. But, extensions are never good, for a variety of reasons, so I just monitored his matches more closely. And excessive use of foreign language cards DOES draw attention (in this situation). It did warn this player that failure to provide the translations in a timely manner WOULD result in a penalty. He heeded my warning and always provided the translations in a timely manner - whenever I was observing his matches.

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You can't do that. It's a legal deck per the rules.

Personally, I would inform the player that I would be granting his opponent any time extension they required due to having to read his cards. And I would be hard pressed to grant him time extensions if he felt he needed them since any time crunch would be mostly due to his use of all these foreign cards.

Therefore, he should hopefully realize that the only player he would be putting at a disadvantage would be himself.

So Mike, I'm curious. How do you grant time extensions to one player and not the other? I assume you're talking about granting REQUESTS (ie., more time if one player requests it, but not if the other player requests it). :biggrin:

 

[Rainbowgym]

1) In my country only English cards are sold, In Germany they sell both English and German cards, in France official they only sell the French cards, but the players use a lot of English cards as well.
Most of the EU players who are traveling, simply have English reference cards because of this.

2) While I do play in Masters, my kids don't, so I can apply it to them if you want to.

Serious we have seen many French/German players this season coming to our country and Dutchies going to their country to play.
Almost no issues about cards, everybody tried to help to get anybody an English translation if needed.

 

[AnimeDDR110]

This is what i say: As long as that player has an official translation of each foreign card from the POP Website, i would allow his whole deck to be made out of Foreign cards.

 

[yoshi1001]

1) In my country only English cards are sold, In Germany they sell both English and German cards, in France official they only sell the French cards, but the players use a lot of English cards as well.
Most of the EU players who are traveling, simply have English reference cards because of this.

2) While I do play in Masters, my kids don't, so I can apply it to them if you want to.

Serious we have seen many French/German players this season coming to our country and Dutchies going to their country to play.
Almost no issues about cards, everybody tried to help to get anybody an English translation if needed.

In a way, I think you've made my point here. While cross-country battling is the rule where you come from, it is the exception here. Hence, the way non-English cards are treated here is different.

Additionally, I should make it known that I am not assuming malice on the part of the player (I would have to know much more to determine that). I am mereley concerned that there is an unnecessary amount of staff resources being taken up that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Rainbowgym]

No Lia. You're OK. Special circumstances apply. Like Mike said, I might have to extend your matches to allow your opponent time to read. That's actually what I almost did in this situation at our tournament - extend the matches. But, extensions are never good, for a variety of reasons, so I just monitored his matches more closely. And excessive use of foreign language cards DOES draw attention (in this situation). It did warn this player that failure to provide the translations in a timely manner WOULD result in a penalty. He heeded my warning and always provided the translations in a timely manner - whenever I was observing his matches.

It's not that difficult to provide the translations in a timely manner.
I can understand a penalty when a player fails to do this.
From that point of view I understand your concerns.

 

[Krucifier]

I don't think that using foreign cards are wrong. As long as of course, you have translations.

In all honesty, buying Japanese boxes is so much better than buying English boxes. Japanese boxes are cheaper and you are guaranteed like, 3 Lvl. X's. Plus you get, what, a holo and 2 rares in a pack? In English boxes, you mightn't even get a Lvl. X. Plus it's 1 rare per pack.

 

[Mew]

I would have no problem with that. In my opinion, if you don't know what every card does you're automatically at a dissadvantage, and your opponent using foreign cards (even if it's their whole deck) should not be a problem.

Just grant the player with all native language cards time extensions when asked for, (which shouldn't come up often... I mean really if they don't know the cards, chances are they are going to lose even if another 10 minutes were added) and everything should work out fine.

Yes I see the perspective of the "novice" player. I've been there (well it was 11 years ago, but I have a good memory). But really it is not that big a deal. Looking through the cards should hardly take more than 3 minutes the entire game, and then it would only be for stuff like "before applying weakness and resistance". If some form of stalling occurs, it is easily dealt with through a warning, and if it happens again, a DQ (same for any other attempt to "cheat").