melee discussions
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The Shadow
New Member
Marril it never really was a debate. All it was was you trying to show that noone can beat you in a debate. Actually to think about it you still have not answered Hax's question aboit how you can wavedash without jumping?
Tagrineth said:
Honestly I agree, she's resorting to changing the topic and refusing to respond to my arguments in order to establish a 'win.'
Marril said:
Maybe that's due to you repeatedly changing the subject, and resorting to dumb statements. If 'learn to love dsmash' doesn't indicate a lovable move then I honestly don't know what does; I can't believe we're even talking about this. You obviously implement dsmash into your gameplay, so why are you arguing over you considering it a good move/not?
The Shadow said:
I've yet to get answers as to wavedashing without playing a jump frame, and how dtilt is worse than dsmash.
SuperWooper
New Member
Marril said:
Actually, I do have a question. And since you and Zero are too busy arguing, I haven't gotten an answer. I'll post it again since nothing but bickering has been put up on this thread since the last time and it's gone to a new page.
SuperWooper said:
By the way, Zero, there's an ignore feature under some options menu on the 'Gym. You can set it to ignore Marril's posts so that you never see them.
vietgamer1021
New Member
hmm ignore...win!
i didnt do it, but i want to XD
i will prove that all u need is tech skill to win. NO MINDGAMES NEEDED!
i have a long wat y to go...
but my cfalcons knee is inaccurate out of dthrow
but spacies are faster (YEAH)
i didnt do it, but i want to XD
i will prove that all u need is tech skill to win. NO MINDGAMES NEEDED!
i have a long wat y to go...
but my cfalcons knee is inaccurate out of dthrow
but spacies are faster (YEAH)
I've gotten killed because down-tilt doesn't send people back far enough, or doesn't stun them, and down-smash does either of those things when I need them.
Like I said, when you need to get a hit off now, or to interrupt something your opponent's doing, down-smash will get them out of your face when down-tilt won't. Down-tilt and down-smash are useful in entirely different situations, though I find down-smash more useful for most things not related to edge-guarding.
I await your opinionated reply.
Actually, Dsmash does have one advantage over Dtilt IMO - depending on the opponent - if the opponent is close enough and they standing dodge the Dsmash, the second hit will get them as they come out of the dodge (assuming they don't grab out of the dodge, though that's still risky depending on the timing).
SuperWooper said:
I read this, but can't help you on it.. I honestly don't know how to float-cancel at all; I only know it cancels aerial lag. Sorry. :frown:
Marril said:
Marth has a superb grab game which makes d-smash obsolete for non-edgeguarding purposes. The lag dsmash leaves you in makes you unable to start aerial combos which defeats the purpose of playing Marth.
As for edgeguarding, you're supposed to space the dtilt so that the tip hits; or time it right. Marth is one of the best edgeguarders in the game, you should never be getting killed after establishing an advantage with the dtilt, since once the opponent is off the edge you can fsmash tipper or sweetspot a dair to gimp them; and Marth is pretty good at gimping. :wink:
dsmash sends opponents at an upwards trajectory, so they can easily DI towards the stage to dodge incoming fairs/fsmashes (the latter at low %). I can understand the use against people who don't DI (towards the stage), but if they DI towards the stage they're back on, and you've missed your gimp. On many fastfallers, you can fthrow -> dtilt to knock them off the edge; which works especially well on Falcon. If you're letting characters get back that easily, you shouldn't be playing Marth.
I've never heard of a move meant to 'get the opponent out of your face,' what is that going to gain you? Time to think? In SSBM, characters don't tire out, it's not as if spacing yourself is going to actually regain stamina or something; since you would need the opponent 'out of your face' as you've put it. If you're playing defensively or something, I'd imagine grabs/techchases to space yourself much better than dsmash; if spacing actually helped to begin with.
dsmash leaves you open to grabs and other combostarters, worse of all; rest. Good foxes will uair you twice after a uthrow for 3x%, falcon will dthrow you to death if he can DIchase, Sheik will death-combo, and falco will start pillars for 6x%. Most characters in this game are good at punishing, I don't see dsmash being effective on either of them due to taking such a risk.
Tagrineth said:
Same thing happens if they try to roll behind you, although that doesn't happen a great deal.
Right, because the only way Marth can ever attack is by aerial combo, amirite?
... What makes you think I don't know how to edgeguard, especially after mentioning what move I do it with?
Why are you assuming I try and edgeguard with down-smash?
Oh, right, because you can't read.
Space. Interrupting their combo. Giving you a chance (if used properly) to regain an advantage. All very worthy endeavours.
Then, like Counter, it's simply a case of you not having put it into your game enough to know how to use it. Like Counter, it's a very effective move that nobody sees coming.
Marril said:
If you do catch them with a dsmash, what are you going to do? The lag leaves you vulnerable, and even if you hit them at low %'s you're too far away to techchase. Marth players are supposed to have the opponent in the air with grabs where they can't roll/airdodge since they're stunned; grabs get them in the air and you combo from their - Marth has no combos that start/end with dsmash that I know of.
At least Falcon's dsmash has a decent amount of knockback to possibly land a kill on a high % opponent (I do this often; works great) and even hits if they roll behind. It has much less lag time and Falcon has the speed to chase them, Marth doesn't. The trajectory the dsmash sends the opponent is quite possibly the worst trajectory in the game for Marths; right on top of him.
Marril said:Right, because the only way Marth can ever attack is by aerial combo, amirite?
No, but not focusing on aerials defeats the purpose of playing Marth. He has no decent ground combos and his game is basically to grab/chainthrow with fthrow and uthrow while gimping the opponent with repeated fairs to dairs (ken combo), fsmash tippers and dtilt. utilt and other moves make improve his chaingrabbing game, while Marth is EXTREMELY vulnerable while on the ground. Nearly all high-tier characters can pull death-combos on him if they DIchase correctly, and Jiggs can just rest you out of nowhere; whiffing a dsmash isn't going to put you in a very good position, ESPECIALLY when it's simply dodged with a jump.
Marril said:
Wrong.
You were boasting about how dsmash is better than dtilt, and dtilt's purpose is to gimp/edgeguard; next time actually know what a move is meant to do before you come and make assumptions like this. kthxMarril said:
I'm sorry, but nearly all combos in the game involve aerials, and dsmash can't hit someone in the air. Marth has virtually the worst weight in the game combo-wise so your opponents must be pretty bad if they let you pull random moves during a combo like dsmash. Combos also force you up in the airs, you therefore can't dsmash; explain to me how you manage to do so, gg.
As for spacing, there are better moves. If you need to keep the opponent away (which will get you nowhere, but gl with it) then just chaingrab and finish with fthrow into techchase or a pivot'd fsmash tipper if you can't reach them. Marth has the best grab game in SSBM behind Falcon and Fox so I can't imagine you having trouble keeping the opponent away with such a huge myriad of moves to choose from (yet you choose dsmash).
Marril said:
Counter is a B move and has much more variety than dsmash. It's a great edgeguarder if you're bad at fsmash tippering and can be sh'd right into the opponent though it's pretty easy to predict since they won't see you fast-falling.
Counter is a bad move in itself because Marth, once again, has bad weight combo-wise. Counter would've been better on nearly any other character but Marth really doesn't want to get grabbed (or punished otherwise) by anyone who knows how to play.
I can conclude that dsmash is obsolete garbage and counter isn't much better, though the latter is slightly usable.
CardRaider
New Member
SuperWooper said:
When you float-cancel, you must start the aerial during float, not right after float. If this is not done correctly, you must still l-cancel the aerial. Other than that, I can't think of anything that you are doing wrong. Just make sure that when you execute the aerial, your thumb doesn't slide off the X/Y button.
On a side note, there is definitely a difference in float-cancelled dair from a l-cancelled dair or a regular dair. Since you are testing it with a dair, which doesn't have much lag to begin with, I presume that the difference in lag is way too close for human eyes to catch. A good way to know if you float-cancelled is attempting to float-cancel a fair, and then do a jab (or in Peach's case, slap) right after. You would know if you float-cancelled is if the jab (slap) comes out right after the fair.
GL and don't hesitate to ask anymore questions (But maybe next time try PM me so that I don't have to sift through a bunch of spam.).:thumb:
vietgamer1021
New Member
i counter endge guard certain people (mainly spacies and people with swords) with marth
but d smash is too risky in my opinion, it sends them up most of the time, and every time i mean to use it as an attack, it sends them up
but thats my opinion, and i say jump off the stage and attack to edge guard is the best way with marth, and dtilt is good if u got timing
but d smash is too risky in my opinion, it sends them up most of the time, and every time i mean to use it as an attack, it sends them up
but thats my opinion, and i say jump off the stage and attack to edge guard is the best way with marth, and dtilt is good if u got timing
That's why you... oh, I dunno... don't whiff it? It's not especially easy to whiff with compared to some of his other moves. Definitely easier to land than Counter.
Wrong.
So, if I'm saying what down-smash is used for, which doesn't include edge guarding, and you're telling me that down-tilt is better for it, what does that say about you?
Note that I did not say "strictly better," I merely said "better."
Then, what, I only fight idiots who incorporate ground attacks into their game? For the love of whatever deity, Hax, you make it sound like people do nothing but jump.
Depending on the combo, I can just Counter out of it.
Counter's an awesome move at disrupting your opponent. Relying on it makes people throw you more, sure, but that's why you don't rely on it. But guess what? A move isn't considered "good" solely by how much you can spam it to victory.
I can conclude you've never so much as tried them.
Marril said:
You're one of those people who think that everything will happen 100% of the time. If people could tech 100% of the time that would be a bit unrealistic and add some factors to the game, such as the removal of punishing (every move hits), and longer time limits due to excessive stalling such as double-stick DI and perfect techs.
Don't compare it to his 'other moves' because Marth has a good amount of moves he doesn't use (usmash, dsmash, uair (not that much), b combo, etc.); there are reasons people don't use moves such as this, so you're only making a comparison to obsolete moves which actually have a better range than dsmash.
I don't see how a floor-sweeping move which is dodged by a single jump has more accuracy than a move which actually has a large hitbox (though an utterly useless move at that which won't help often).
Marril said:
If dsmash is better than dtilt it should be an edgeguarder itself since dtilt is one, not that this is relevant.
Marril said:
As if that makes much of a difference in the long run...
Marril said:
shffls are the essence of smash, you don't see ground combos because ground moves don't propel you towards the opponent while attacking while aerials do; name me some characters who DON'T focus their combo game on aerials.
If you're landing dsmashes so often then your opponents obviously don't know how to do any decent aerial combos because a character's ground game usually focuses on actually getting the opponent into the air where they're vulnerable.
Marril said:
Right. Posts ago you thought dsmash could get you out of combos; I see you've changed your mind.
Marth's fair actually breaks combos better than counter since it's near instant and doesn't lag, suit yourself.
Marril said:
Except, counter is nearly obsolete due to other combo breakers which don't lag marth (fair, nair, bair). After you land either of those you can techchase or continually fair to start a combo. As a Marth, you DON'T want to ****ing get grabbed, you're supposed to space yourself so that you can land aerials and fsmashes from afar, and eventually techchase into a grab to attempt a gimp/combo.
You don't understand that competitively many characters can combo Marth to death with a single grab, his weight is so bad that using laggy moves other than fsmashes should be the last thing on your mind; fsmash is a notable good move despite the lag, since it's his finisher and a good edgeguarder at that.
Marril said:
I can conclude you have no knowledge of the basics of competitive smash.
vietgamer1021
New Member
dude counter is soooo good with marth
it lasts a lot longer than roys, and its ideal for edge gurading spacies
but i think fsmash is more accurate against other people
and reverse dolphin slash is the best one...it looks so F***IN COOL
everyone uses fsmash/dtilt, i do something diffrent everytime and if it works, ill use it if i have to
it lasts a lot longer than roys, and its ideal for edge gurading spacies
but i think fsmash is more accurate against other people
and reverse dolphin slash is the best one...it looks so F***IN COOL
everyone uses fsmash/dtilt, i do something diffrent everytime and if it works, ill use it if i have to
lol this is coming by the person who is starting half these arguments? Every time we are done with the Wave Dash debate, sure enough a few posts later you say, well.......WD IS A GLITCH THAT SHOULD NOT BE USED! That is stupid and counter productive. This thread is going to **** in handbasket and we have you to thankMarril said:
So... you're saying down-tilt has no other applications besides edge guarding?
Actually, it does. "Strictly better" is an exceedingly precise term, either true or false, whereas "better" is highly subjective and open to debate.
Translation: "All your opponents suck at Smash, I'm better than you, gg noob."
Honestly, trying to tell me nobody ever uses ground attacks... if ground attacks weren't meant to be used, why do characters even have them? How many characters wouldn't be affected if all non-aerial attacks were to be physically removed from them? Or maybe it's because... ground attacks actually have merit?
So... characters are only allowed one combo-breaking move? I could have sworn that's what you just implied...
You don't understand that, in all honesty, people make mistakes. How many people can honestly combo a competent Marth to death a solid majority of the time? Are you trying to tell me that it's considered an instant kill if you can just grab Marth, because then it's just a matter of pulling off a combo?
Get over yourself.
I can conclude you simply parrot everything others say, without so much as seeing anything not within your Smash paradigm. How many times have you died because you mistimed Marth's down-smash? How many times have you been grabbed and comboed to death instantly because you used Counter? How many times have you simply parroted what others tell you?
Not really. If someone starts a thread about a Gameshark, someone will tell them that they can't enter tournaments (either before or after I clear up the confusion that you can). If someone starts a thread about MissingNo., someone will tell them not to use that bug. I really don't see it being any different from that.
You actually have Zero Hax to thank as much as if not more than me. Two to tango, and all.
I dunno, why's there a specific process required to get to Glitch City?
Marril said:
I'm saying that in your opinion dsmash is a superior edgeguarder than dtilt which is strictly an edgeguarder. Honestly don't ever question my ****ing illiteracy again because you can't even interpret the crap you're spewing anymore.
Marril said:
Doesn't change the fact that it's 'better,' ****.
Marril said:
First off, your 'reply' has no relevance to your translation so I suggest you restate the innacurate translation you've made.
I said ground attacks are most often moves meant to get the opponent in the air for aerial combos, and edgeguarding as I've previously outlined. You don't see competitive ground combos because they don't propel you towards the opponent as you attack, hence character's games are solely based on using grab/ground game to begin an aerial game so that the opponent can be combo'd. Ground attacks indeed do have merit (I can't recall denying that, mind to quote it?), they're basically combo-starters and edgeguarders (and for smashes, finishers).
Marril said:
Now you're taking my post ****ing literally, obviously I'm saying that counter is a better combo-breaking move than obsolete moves like dsmash, though counter's pretty bad in itself.
When you post, rather than correcting my grammar mistakes consider arguing so we can actually come to a concencus, though I don't believe you intend to do that.
Marril said:
Actually, if you fight someone good at DIchasing they'll get you to the high 50's at the least, so you're hits away from death. Falcon's can chaingrab/nair spam, IC's can wobbles combo (gfg, good luck getting out of this one), Fox's can uthrow double uair, Falco can pillar, Marth can chaingrab -> fsmash tipper.. need I say more? Just because you play in a metagame packed with smashers who land their ideal combos innacurately doesn't mean you can come into a competitive metagame and start ranting about how you love the metagame you play in and how everyone should adjust to it, ban wavedashes and stop doing death combos because all that junk is glitchy, cheap, etc. and let us know how we need to play exactly by the 'rules' of the game and how the game was intended. Take your shots, I don't give a ****; it's the truth.
Marril said:
GameSharks are cheating devices rather, and what King said is the truth.
vietgamer1021
New Member
wavedash is not a glitch
it follows the physics of the game
the traction of the character, the degree of the air dode, how fast you air dodge, determines the length of the WD
its part of the game physics, but the developers probably never expected to be used so much
every game has at least one thing thats abused right?
it follows the physics of the game
the traction of the character, the degree of the air dode, how fast you air dodge, determines the length of the WD
its part of the game physics, but the developers probably never expected to be used so much
every game has at least one thing thats abused right?
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