chrataxe said:
well, its obvious to me that you are in love with luxchomp. maybe you should get a room for this PDA. I've seen people get banned on the gym for things less pornographic than this.
Basically, what is wrong with showing people why the BDIF has earned its keep as its BDIF? 79 wins and counting for Cities, this isn't a joke. What perplexes me is that some guy has been going around calling Scizor Prime, which is neither a top 5 deck nor a rising star (like VileGar in its earliest days), a favourable deck to use against it. It isn't Gigas where you have a good number of options against LuxChomp either. I have reasoned why Scizor Prime loses to LuxChomp, and gave constructive critique to the matchups sections in 7 lines, where IMHO the only word I used that might be provoking negative reaction is "audacity", and you guys ganked me with ad hominems and such, and observed by your statement. This isn't a Personal Display of Affection, this is speaking up for what I believe is correct, and standing with it.
chrataxe said:
this deck plays 4 collectors and 1 giratina, its not hard to set up disruption.
It's funny when right smack in the LuxChomp matchup section, the thread starter has warned against slapping down Giratina PL. His words: "biggest issues: Giratina. Simple and clean, don't play it in this matchup or you risk getting bright look stalled". You get out one round worth of disruption, risk spray and then risk getting stalled whenever Luxray GL Lv. X hits the field. Running just 1 Switch and 2 Warp Point, without Seekers or SSU cards to rectify the problem can warrant you an entire game of frustration. You would dread the time when an active Luxray GL Lv. X, which also walls the main attacker and a benched Luxray GL would be present, and then your opponent keeps chaining Cyrus and Turns to your dismay. Eventually you'll cave in because Switch and Warp Point do not drop from the sky. And it's easy to chain Bright Looks even in decks that tech 1 - 1 Luxray, let alone an SP deck with a Cyrus Engine and 2 - 2 Luxray. Giratina is moot.
chrataxe said:
The point you keep missing is YES, you will snipe their pixies, they concede that when playing them. good luck winning if they don't drop 6 of them. you assume your opponent is stupid, that is the flaw in your argument. yes, you WILL win if you snipe\bright look 2 uxies, an azelf, and 3 scyther. the point is, why would I let you do that? that is just plain stupid. I think it is safe to assume this deck will be able to get 2 collectors off, giving them 2 uxie, 3 scyther, and giratina. if we assume you snipe 2 scyther and both uxies, where does that leave you?
It's not just about Uxies and the like. Uxie, Smeargle, Shaymin and Skarmory. I don't have to explicity list every single bench sitter possible to get my point across. Scyther is huge, sonny. Notice his list doesn't run BTS or Rare Candy. That's alot of Scyther slaughter going around, no joke. Cherry on the cake? 4 Scythers. Man, that's gonna keep the blood flowing. Very nice. Of course a typical player will evolve his Scyther ASAP. But the point is he will take a whole world of hurt before the Scizor comes out, then meet Luxray GL Lv. X. Then be greeted with poison, wall and stall. Not very pretty for 30 + 3 games in competitive play either. You mentioning Giratina makes it even better, no doubt. 1 Switch? 2 Warp Points? 3 turns of agony at least? Look at what I have said earlier on. A simple bright look and you could be stuck for game, match, and set.
chrataxe said:
I only run 1 uxie in my deck for this very reason. my deck also plays jirachi rr. I will gladly give up 3 jirachi in 1 game, its actually quite the luxchomp counter. my point is, anyone playing this deck will take luxchomps strengths into account and will play that specific match up. I play against LC different than I play againgst dialgachomp and even play different against gyarados and fire decks.
Jirachi + Twins/Black Belt. I have seen this many many times. I give you whatever card you require. Be it your precious special metal, Scizor Prime or even Judge if its your first Jirachi in the swarm. However, you still take 2 turns minimum to get an entry level metal scissors, and I get 2 prizes more easily in those turns because you saved me the effort of Dragon Rush, Thrash Bolt, or a Crobat drop, which might be useful later. I conserve my resources and lessen the blow of Judge. You realize that with Scizor, that unless it is the epic scenario of 2 Scizor Prime, I hardly make any jibes about what you might get in your hand? In actual fact, I was talking about how long it would take, a hand of 4 special metals or otherwise, to still get the first KO. What you get out of Jirachi is redundancy, what you do get in the shortest amount of turns possible is the crux.
You can try to tilt the matchup in your favour, it is possible and it is typical, by modifying your playstyle accordingly, but there is reason why matchups are given percentages and ratings. That's because of the inherent natures of the deck and what it does typically. LuxChomp takes easy prizes, Scizor has a problem with that. Luxray GL Lv. X comes out fast, often by T2, and has 110hp with metal resistance, too bad for Scizor Prime. You can modify your playstyle, but drastic teching aside, if problems were resolved simply by playing differently, all matchups would be 50 - 50. Techs can bring you so far, and in a frontpage article, the matchup section talks about a typical build of the deck idea and I'm sure a version teched drastically against LuxChomp would not be in the books. Fortunately, your Jirachi-ed list doesn't fall into this category since while it gives a slightly better hand for you to set up, a better hand only gives a little edge, given that the issue is how to play the goodies out of your hand ASAP in as few turns as possible without giving off prizes readily, which in fact Jirachi facilitates with an easy peasy 60 hp, a better deal than any of the Pixies currently.
chrataxe said:
you also said having 2 scizor is ideal and near impossible but think you will always have the resources you need after a judge. for whatever reason, your own logic doesn't seem to apply to you. I would venture to say that 90 percent of all of my matches (especially luxchomp) end up with nothing but two stage 1 pokemon.
You misunderstand. I was saying how tough it was to get that singular judge, by which time the resources would not only be in the hand, but also on the field. This is with reference to my "Garchomp C on the field" example. By which then the 5 cards you receive by the time you can do anything would most certainly yield something that you can work with, since some of the resources you would need would already be down there. It's easier to get that one more energy for a Dragon Rush due to having energy on Garchomp C already/Bronzong G and one more energy on an SP pokemon on the field, and then drawing into one. Taking the prizes quick and fast and having an inherently quick set up because this is LuxChomp facilitates that, and having one judge to draw into doesn't help. No sir it does not.
chrataxe said:
so, to reiterate, I don't think the given matchup is correct. I don't think it is as bad as you say. I'm sure its somewhere in the middle.
So to reiterate, I think the Scizor Prime vs LuxChomp matchup is in LuxChomp's favour and Scizor Prime's disadvantage. Note that Scizor Prime can still beat LuxChomp, because it is not impossible, but the chances of LuxChomp beating Scizor are higher.
jerin said:
You seem to forget about blackbelt good sir. Even nance dsays you'll be very surprised when I drop my blackbelt expbelt and ko you for 2 energgys. That's all itl take to ohko your luxray after you take your so called cheap prizes. Your luxray will die I assuere you that. It doesn't take that long to go ohko mode. You forget I also run pp.
Blackbelt would be great if you can get it out as fast as you can get out an SP tool with a Cyrus engine. Unfortunately you do not have that or similar. Blackbelt is still something you draw, and by drawing you get some Uxies out and maybe some Smeargle. All which are cheap prizes. All will be taken and slaughtered and will not have a chance to psychic restore/repeat the feat or portrait during Cyrus chain/blackbelt for too long. Every blackbelt you get will be a bonus. Moreover, taking a prize while having two energy online can be said to be keeping pace with LuxChomp, which will go into prize taking mode T2 onwards typically, or anytime after invoking black belt for that matter. Having to require a bonus to guide you into keeping pace with a deck that typically runs the pace in which you get your red bull still means your chances are low against it. Drawing into all of them is rare, actually being motivated to use them is rarer. And rare means an unlikely chance of pulling off, and an unfavourable scenario and ultimately matchup for you. Going into OHKO mode quickly is still a rarity, and ephemeral. Definitely not in pace with "six prizes in six turns" LuxChomp. You can steal a few prizes so you can still be in a position of control and not be late for the bus in your favourable late game, but your resources, like pluspowers, will surely be expended when you need to jump into the late game more quickly. The unfavourability still balances out.
Cetra said:
My biggest issue right now is that I keep hearing all this talk about sniping but didn't anyone bother to notice that there are only 2 uxie in this deck for a pixie count, and after that you get the scythers that DON'T get evolved and shaymin if when/if it's dropped late game? I never drop more than 1 uxie in a match unless I'm playing gigas. You can only KO 1 scyther at a time, so what's to say I'm not able to lock down what you can snipe by my 2nd-3rd turn (3rd being you sniping scyther first and uxie t3)?
Of course I noticed the low pixie count, that why I've brought Smeargles (Artisan Beagles), Scythers late on the evolution train, and "etc" (meaning the arguably useful Skarmory UD or Shaymin) into the picture. Enough for a feast of 4 to 5 prizes, and very delicious middle to late game. 1 Uxie is fine and dandy for anti-snipe and anti-drag, but given a number of your resources are still draw-oriented, like special Metal and blackbelt, not to mention pluspowers, some will be more inclined to drop 1 more out of necessity or risk finding dead Scizors in their hands, making the matchup worse. A wayward spray at the early game makes this harder as well. It's still a snipe fest. Multiple Scythers might be a solution, but I would destroy the one with energy. Letting your Scyther go on a hunger strike till evolution puts you a turn behind in energy attachments will cost you a turn and perhaps a game since LuxChomp is a fast deck.
Cetra said:
I applaud Erik for his testing. His results clearly show that HIS luxchomp deck will beat scizor. But he also mentions that his list is different, running no call and additionally having e. belt. The loss of special energy (assuming he's replacing them with basic energy) hurts scizor in this matchup A LOT. The simple fact is that Luxchomp would have a lot more maneuverability in this matchup. Now depending how many energy Nance runs to begin with, you should be able to see a problem off the bat. In our area and with most luxchomp decks I've played, You only have 3-6 basic energy in your list with 4 dce, 3-4 call and 0-2 warp (depending if you run dialga) and 2-4 thunder and 1-2 psychic energy. Tell me how a LC deck plans to beat a deck that locks down special energy using attackers when your deck runs like 5 basic energy and discards to attack? Eventually you'll have to take down scizor itself and when you start running low on your resources you'll be in a hole like everyone else.
You see the problem with this point is that I have already taken into account Scizor's tankability and thus proposed killing everything other than Scizor as a priority. This is the very reason why I went for the easy prizes solution in what I have posted. The loss of special energy doesn't matter when we are talking in this perspective. LuxChomp has the maneuverability from the get go, with or without special energies. Your point about special energies is vitriol. This is not invoking points such as BLG or DLG variants and everything in between. Moreover, taking swift prizes in tournament setting probably means you won't even require a Scizor kill. 30 + 3 makes this better for LuxChomp than it ever was for Scizor Prime. LuxChomp capitalizes on early game advantage, which will translate into a bigger advantage than late game strengths on Scizor's part, when the late game will be truncated. Tank decks like this go into time, only to find that it is not unusual for them to fall short of matching the prize count by a kill or two. This is the reason for LuxChomp's success. Early game advantage gives you the win more often than late game advantage does. Running low on resources does not necessarily drive one into a hole, running low on time to close the gap even if you can does.
Cetra said:
Tack on E. belt in this specific matchup and it may not be THAT big a deal with PP and Black belt, but I could see it being annoying particularly early game. When we're calculating in sp. metals, it's usually a 2-3 hit. E. Belt will negate sp. metals and could potentially get you an OHKO, or ensure a 2hko. but whose to say I can't just return the KO with a black belt and or a couple plus powers.
Do keep in mind that Expert Belt's primary purpose is to tank Scizors, because you probably will not necessarily require such shenanigans in the early game to kill bench sitters, which is huge but not necessary. LuxChomp still gets along fine with its easy prizes methodology, and Expert Belt's a help, but more of a "welcome bonus" level. A top tier player like Erik can and will use it to his maximum advantage, but who is to say that a belt-less list is good against the surprise Black Belt drop, since the prize given will still be one as opposed to the sudden two?
Cetra said:
Next up is that even though Erik sees the matchup being in luxchomps favor, he clearly says that he can see a different list having more difficulty.
More difficulty certainly. But how much is "more"? Statistically, his is a 20 - 80 in favour of LuxChomp. It could still go 30 - 70 or 40 - 60 if any other player runs with it. It still is favourable. In Erik's words, while "with a different Luxchomp build being played by a different player, the Scizor deck may have an easier time", he also went on mention that "I (Erik) don't think that this matchup is in Scizor's favor". That was his whole point of view. So in his opinion, he did say a different list having more difficulty, but how much more difficult? Definitely not enough to warrant a favourable matchup for Scizor still. Perhaps in the vein of 70 - 30 or 60 - 40 thereabouts, but overall still in LuxChomp's favour. Those were his words.
Cetra said:
To wrap up, did Erik's testing prove anything? For his list and lists like his, YES, it did prove something. But for our current argument, a traditional luxchomp deck (not BLG, not some randomly teched LC sp hybrid) has not been tested. This point basically makes what Erik did moot for the discussion, unless MyName also runs no call or a boosted basic energy count or some other uncommon list tweak.
A traditional LuxChomp deck does not exist. Bullados put it very nicely by saying that is merely it the very notion of throwing together two beastly powerful SP Pokemon and placing techs all around it to help against the meta. Drifblim UD is fairly common in my area and I do run it to wreck Mewtwos, hit Machamps hard, and stop tanks from giving me a hard time, and is one of the most common known Mewtwo counters, run most likely all over the world en mass. Blaziken FB Lv. X is not unusual since it is hits hard and fast, has disruption ability to help against VileGar and smacks tankish pokemon like Dialga G Lv. X around. I'm not being unreasonable by asking you to account for each and every tech and variation of LuxChomp. Rather, I am asking you to consider common techs like Drifblim UD and Blaziken FB Lv. X that you see. I'm not even highlighting them as points bandied around in every reply I give to your points, and mention them as merely possibilities that could be dangerous to you. However, now that you have shelled the point of different builds out, I guess I can use this point against you. You cannot judge LuxChomp as easily with terms such as "traditional" and such. This is what makes LuxChomp deadly: versatility.
Cetra said:
The next argument has to do with player skill level. Eirk is how good? And how long has he been playing LC? I don't have an exact number but I can guarantee pretty accurately that it's been a WHILE...After playing Gigas for a year and a half, I can pretty much take any matchup and swing it in my favor just because I know how to manipulate my deck. Could a skilled luxchomp player do this vs scizor? Of course. To say not would be stupid of me. My thoughts are that if you have your average sp player, sit him across the table from this list, he has a pretty decent chance of walking away with a loss. This opinion is boosted by the fact that Jerin has taken this list and beaten every top LC player in our area, some of them multiple times.
This is why I took the step to propose an intuitive way to beat Scizor. It's not difficult to sit down and realize you can't kill Scizor Prime easily, then decide to eat up the other guys first. It does not take a skilled player to do that. In fact, it is typical play for LuxChomp. I am not suggesting really convoluted ways to bring down Scizor Prime, requiring outlandish techs and really stellar hands. I'm just saying that when a LuxChomp deck typically goes for six easy prizes in six turns, it would beat Scizor. I am assuming a generic player with generic playstyles.
The reason why I mentioned Erik's name is so that the playtesting result comes from a creditable source, and so that he can skilfully use Scizor Prime so as to give LuxChomp a valid challenge. Who better to pilot Scizor than tank specialist Erik "Steelix" Nance? And who better to pilot LuxChomp than one who went top 2 at the US Nats with it? He is one of the best candidates to play out both of the matchups validly, and it would do well for our chat to make reference to the detailed post playtested report he has so kindly typed out for us. This is further proven by the fact that Erik abused what LuxChomp was known for, not only to good players, but to the average LuxChomp player, and that trait is speed. With phrases such as "Scizor had a pretty slow start and couldn't really get out of it. Garchomp X KO'd a Scyther before it could evolve. Game went downhill afterwards", "A Scizor got in play, but got hit before it could attack, leaving it within KO range", "Luxray KO'd the Scther before it could evolve" and "By the time Scizor could drop some basics, Garchomp was ready for the KO on the Scythers" lead me to believe that by purely smashing through the deck with a typical LuxChomp strategy, one could succeed. No super-powered players required.
Cetra said:
I don't believe the decks mechanics are being fully realized here. What do you do when your Cyrus chain gets broken in half by Giratina or I swarm multiple scizors. So what if you KO one of my scythers early game? People that have done this in the past usually come face to face with a 2 energy scizor/blackbelt combo. I haven't heard much about shaymin's ability to help energy manipulation both for recovery and swarm, I haven't heard much about Tina's disruption and all I've been hearing about scizor are things like it getting sniped as a basic before it evolves. Really?
Wonder why you haven't heard much about tina's disruption? Because in your matchup section, you did explicitly state to keep Giratina PL drops as scarce as possible. I did just that, and for good reason too. A possible spray and repeated kidnaps to buy time and keep the prize advantage can spell trouble for a 1 Switch, 2 Warp Points list. Games can be won simply by dragging a Giratina PL to active position and then sniping FTW. Giratina PL drops for a single bit of disruption without a Seeker or SSU in sight can spell an entire game of "bright look = trouble", with multiple of those poke powers happening throughout the game. Breaking a Cyrus chain to give yourself an overall board disadvantage for the whole game makes the matchup a whole lot worse when all someone has to do to recovery from his situation is to draw into a Cyrus, or get his engine online against by Uxie, Collector, Bebe, etc etc etc... and you have a grand total of 3 card to rectify the damage you have done to yourself once you shuffled both hands in.
Also, a "2 Energy Scizor/Blackbelt Combo" only steals a prize when you draw into one of the 3 blackbelts in the deck. I mean DRAW. Unlikeliness makes for an unfavourable matchup by definition, proving my point. In one of my playtests, I went to a 2 Energy Scizor Prime, exposed in the front, tail coded energy to the back. With some poke turns, and a spray in hand, Scizor Prime ran pretty dry after 2 attachments. Because plus powers and blackbelts refuse to turn up. That's the problem with unsearchable cards. Any Scythers in the back doing sneaky energy attachments thereafter got their butts flash impacted. Disruption the whole way through. With a plethora of odd techs like Ambipom G, a prematurely active Scizor Prime is not something you want to play with if I can play around your unchainable Black Belts with my chainable Cyrus Conspiracies.
Cetra said:
Someone mentioned Drifblim...
A 2 turn counter, once I see it hit the field, of course I'm going to focus setting up a second scizor, and/or drop shaymin to lessen the take away. I know it's difficult for some people to grasp that I'll have multiple scizors in play but truth is I'll have at least 2 and they aren't THAT hard to get out even if you ARE sniping at my bench...
At this point, setting up a second scizor would be a case of a little too late indeed. It would seriously impede your progress. Especially since the energy seems to be concentrated on the first Scizor for the second to deal anything of consequence in the late part of the game in time for 30 + 3 or in time to tank sufficiently against a 2 HKO, while you aren't KO-ing anything else. Drifblim UD is a counter and a deterrent, as well as a wrench in the works. Of course Shaymin drops would be sprayed, and power spray would typically be in the hand when a counter is ready, just as it is with Dialga G Lv. X against Gengar Lv. X. It is a reflex precaution that would be taken by most, barring the careless player, but typically a spray would be prepared in any case, as part of an SOP.
Cetra said:
Someone mentioned judge...
You can use portrait during a cyrus chain to search it out, Is portrait sprayable? Of course it is, but that just kills one of your sprays.
Or you can go ahead and kill Smeargle BEFORE they keep it on the bench and wait for something to KO the active pokemon, Q it, then portrait you. It is a nice and tasty bench sitter, and worth killing more than Uxies. You just gave more free food.
Cetra said:
To sum up some stuff before I end.
-Erik did a great job testing his variation of luxchomp but since his list is different by a decent degree paired with is level of skill, I can't accept the results for a traditional luxchomp build which means we're still arguing the same point back and forth.
-Jerin's willing to agree to a 50/50 vs luxchomp to give credit to better players and I can agree with this, but this doesn't negate the fact that he's torn through all but a couple of his luxchomp matchups due to the deck or his skill with the deck.
- I don't think people are giving enough credit towards scizor's mechanics. I think that with a little legitimate practice against a variety of different meta decks, you could learn the ins and outs to better play it. Things like Shaymin just don't seem to get the recognition they deserve. Your main attacking stage 1 doesn't even seem to get credit for it's speed -_-'
Erik did a great job in playtesting I do agree, but he has also said the LuxChomp matchup, while more difficult for more conventional builds, is still in LuxChomp's favour. This is inferred from his playtesting, because while Expert Belts and less Special Energies did help in a token manner, the report indicated what decided most matches was Scizor's inability to set up and LuxChomp's ability to capitalize on that. This is far bleaker than my scenario of Scizor eventually setting up. In Erik's playtest, Scizor Prime did a no-show most of the time, even for its main attacker. His report does help to explain what will happen if it is Scizor Prime vs another LuxChomp deck, and it boosts my case, no yours. It is not the stalemate that you have claimed.
Jerin won his Cities with a nice little rogue Scizor Prime, congrats to him on that. However, all else aside, Erik's playtesting and mine, coupled with what I have posted and your inability to satisfactorily answer to what I have posted in favour of LuxChomp, has led me to believe that his wins against LuxChomp were either an unlikely result produced due to what you have claimed to be voluminous playtesting, and his wins something pulled off from the unlikely end of the unfavourable matchup for Scizor Prime. Luck is part of the game, and not to call Jerin a lucksack, but c'est la vie, weirder things have happened, and you should not take singular results like that as basis.
I have already talked about how your mechanics are a little on the clunky side, with unsearchable cards your edge for the matchup, and engines prize bait to fuel the basic strategy for LuxChomp. Your strengths become your flaws, and that is what, in essence makes the matchup unfavourable for Scizor Prime. This is one of the points I have been driving at, with a variety of examples for the different mechanics of the deck, and these so-called engines are actually helping my case, becoming thorns for your deck in this context rather than the tremendous help that you have claimed it to be.
Cetra said:
Hopefully some of this gets somewhere. My only real goal is to get this deck out there as a viable play in the metagame with solid matchups.
I feel that a lot of the points you could argue in favor of scizor will be shot down now because of Erik's testing given that he's a top tier reliable player, but people really should reread his matchups and his analysis.
I have no problems with rogue. I enjoy playing with and against Gigas, Steelix, HoPe and Garchomp SV. I am helping you to shape up your matchups and make it realistic, regardless of how bitter the facts are. My seven-sentence post of advise, from being a little on the spicy side, became a full-blown heated discussion, in which I have to reiterate my case, albeit a little more cuttingly. I do not want this, but I believe a more detailed examination of the fact is warranted with greater urgency here, and thus my post. I also believe you have to reference to Erik's report of his testing with greater scrutiny, rather than take it out of context and use the bits that you believe would help your case. Examine the contents of his individual games, and you realize it doesn't take a pro to defeat Scizor easily, and that he actually called the matchup to be in LuxChomp's favour, his build or otherwise. This is your own advice that you should take instead.
Cetra said:
From here on I'll take questions on the list itself, but I'm kind of through arguing the same points over and over with the same people -_-'
I will take the bolded as your word for it. Any further replies against me would be taken as self-pwn from a guy who swallows his words.
Kayle said:
Why not? "Your logic is solid and I can't explain it away, but I have played the deck against very skilled players who will tell you that it just doesn't turn out the way you think it would."
Sounds reasonable enough to me.
That is why I am provoking him to let me in on how those players do it. Give me more insight, and I might be satisfied.
