Mulligan Charade - Who Shows First?

[SLOW DECK]

This topic came up during the thread on Bluffing, and I wasn't happy where it was ended, because the topic was directly on General Bluffing, I left it to be discussed at a later date.

Is this legal Bluffing?

I do this all the time with Mulligan's. I draw my seven cards, I don’t have a basic pokemon.

I will proceed to put non basic card as my starter and maybe another card on my bench. (Both Face down) Proceed to Deal out my prize cards if my opponent still hasn’t put down a starting pokemon. Usually I don’t need to do prizes, but if my opponent is very slow in declaring his mulligan, then I need to carry on the bluff.

Immediately when opponent puts face down their starting pokemon, then I will show my mulligan.

I am obviously just trying to make my opponent declare his starter before he knows they going to draw a mulligan. This is for the ever slight angle(yes slight) that they might decide to play one basic over another basic if they knew they and another card coming.

Is playing out a mulligan this way legal?

A well respected Judge replays:

I will say this is improper and could be subject to penalty. Why you may ask? Look to the set up procedures. Every PTO/TO goes over proper set up technique (or should) before rd 1 of their tourneys. You know the part, where all the MAs continue to talk and never hear the number of rds they are playing, when/if a lunch break will occur, etc. All part of opening announcements. Anyway, I digress.

The set up rules state that each player is to place their starting poke/fossil face down in the active position along with up to 5 benched pokes/fossils. Only after you have done that do you set out your prizes and then draw for a mulligan (if oppo has one). You are 1st misrepresenting your game state by saying "I am ready" when you arent. You have not placed a poke as your active, you have used an NRG, trainer, supporter, evo, tool or stadium (soon to add goods!) as your "active". There may be a few penalties that could be assessed.

Again, use the KISS method..Keep It Simple Stupid. If you dont have a basic, simply ask your oppo if they have a basis and place it....then show your hand. Hopefully, they arent taking too long and have already dropped their active.

Keith

This answer was worth of debate on this issue. KISS versus NO-HARM-NO-FOUL principle.

First you have to imagine the situation.( and we can imagine this). Let's say you are playing against a Magikarp deck, Let's say you have two starting pokemon, one that is a good set up pokemon normally and another one being a voltorb that can ohko a Magikarp, but you just need to get at one of your 15 energies. Which one do you choose.... If I had an electric energy I would definitely look to see if I can get the quick donk..... But if I start with the "set up" pokemon, I can't catch my opponent with a lone magikarp and KO it for the win.... Boy I would think, the odds of me top decking an energy is 28%, but if my opponent has a Mulligan, the two extra cards odds go to 49%. Almost 50/50...

Would it be legal to delay declaring my starting pokemon until my opponent declares his does have starting pokemon. What happen if my opponent knows the situation, and doesn't want to declare a mulligan until I declare if my basic pokemon. Who Shows First, who blinks first. The KISS rule would encourage a stalemate.

Since using the KISS suggestion above, It would mean that it is legal to ask if my opponent has a basic pokemon or not. (Keith, We know this isn't right either.) Or since I have one, I can just WAIT, until my opponent declares a pokemon. BTW, if you think we are overthinking things, this playing correct to maximise the odds every angle is what separates average to great players. Big angels and small angles, they all add up.

What is the "HARM" in my designating a card as my starter (if I have a starter) and wait until my opponent declares a card as their starter, By designating a card a starting basic if (I have a basic), this relieves my opponent having to give information first. And the game can start promptly with out any information being given.

If you follow this crazy logic and the games being played, the KISS method would lead to a extreme "angleing" strategy of NEVER showing if you have Basic first. And that would delay the game. The mechanic that the players take to designate a false starter with a mulligan is a neutral startegy and would not lead to a silent delay to see who will blink first.

Again, many of us do this, and there is no delay, and I don't see any harm OR rule violation. I have a Mulligan, But they need to Declare their starting pokemon, This mechanic above, let's this who shows first solution be resolved without waiting for someone to Blink. When I do this, within a second or two my opponent will have played there basic down,.... I show... and shuffle up again.

Many Cards like Team Galactic Wager, detail who does the action first. In declaring a mulligan versus declaring a basic, the game is silent.

The mechanic as suggested in the KISS method would represent a "broken" game dynamic otherwise.

 

[Ness]

There is no "harm" in bluffing a fake basic and putting something else down. My friends & I have been doing this in our games against each other for years. We do it for the exact reason you described: knowing you get an extra mulligan card can give you an advantage that would let you change your opening basic. However, when we're in tournaments, playing someone we don't know, we don't bother. There's too many judges who get their rocks off giving penalties for anything they deem "unfair," even though doing this keeps the game MORE fair.


Intentional Draws make sense, too, but I've heard those erroneously called "unfair," probably by the same people who would deem bluffing a basic "unfair."

Basically, anything competitive in Pokemon is seen as unsportsmanlike and unfair. Just be glad the mulligan situation realistically puts you at a disadvantage very seldom and accept it as an imperfect game. IMO it's better to deal with it than argue with stubborn judges, or barrage POP with e-mails hoping to change it - because believe me, it isn't.

 

[dave321]

I would just stare at my hand. I'm subtlely implying I'm thinking which basic to place, but really just waiting for them to place.

That way it's only fair, and afterwards I wouldn't allow them to change it... in tournaments generally people will abide by the "no changing stuff (i.e., things like this, attacks, use of powers, whatever) unless you opponent lets you" way of thinking so I think they'd pretty much have no choice but to accept it. You can't just switch your basics around like that, what you play active, you play active.

I mean it doesn't say anywhere in the rules I have to announce I have no basics before their basic is placed, in fact it may even say the contrary.

 

[Ness]

I would just stare at my hand. I'm subtlely implying I'm thinking which basic to place, but really just waiting for them to place.

Yeah, that works too, except when your opponent does the same and you get into a 60-second staring contest.

 

[Box of Fail]

It is a bit of an unfair advantage to know if you're getting a mulligan. Similarly, there have been times when I played a deck with Sableye and Darks that it gave me a tangible advantage to know how many basics my opponent will put down. I would wait for them to put their Pokémon down, then decide whether or not to open Sableye. By knowing they were likely to only have one Pokémon, and then maybe an Uxie they keep in hand because they don't anticipate a donk, I could comfortably start with Sableye and it would be likely for me to donk.

Also, on multiple occasions, when I started exceptionally poorly with Shuppet, I would have an Unown Q and an Uxie with no drawpower whatsoever. I would check how many basics were laid by my opponent before deciding whether to open Unown Q or Uxie. Since Uxie is generally an unfavorable start, if my opponent put down two basics, I would assume they had no Uxie active and that I would get a chance to potentially recover with Uxie. But if they placed only one Pokémon, I would open with Uxie to play it safe.

 

[DarkMagnus]

honestly steps in the game state players place there basics then reveal there hand for muligans, then draw for muls. watch the phases and steps of the game very important. also lawman is slightly off you places additional basics after mulls and before start of game.

 

[SLOW DECK]

There is no "harm" in bluffing a fake basic and putting something else down. My friends & I have been doing this in our games against each other for years. We do it for the exact reason you described: knowing you get an extra mulligan card can give you an advantage that would let you change your opening basic. However, when we're in tournaments, playing someone we don't know, we don't bother. There's too many judges who get their rocks off giving penalties for anything they deem "unfair," even though doing this keeps the game MORE fair.

Ness, I definitely agree there is no Harm in this. No Harm No Foul. If everyone does this mechanic, and I do believe the majority of the good players do this (and none of them think they are being dishonest), there is no advantage given. By making your opponent declare their basic before getting the information on the "mulligan" card, that seems right. Again, players like myself, Ness, and Flails all will tell you that this information isn't trivial, because all the top level players will play every legal angle on every turn. This goes from creative way of unloading cards before claydol draws.

Alternatively, I can just wait. wait. wait. wait. wait..... wait. wait . wait. scratch my nose. .wait. wait. scratch my chin.. wait . wait. wait. (repeat for 10 minutes.) A judge comes by and says you are playing slow, and I will ask the judge... WHY HASN'T MY OPPONENT PLACED THEIR POKEMON DOWN YET...... Again, placing a false card when you have a mulligan eliminates this staring contest. The opposing player get's no information until he does what he is supposed to do and that is to play a basic pokemon themselves as there starter.

Pulling in rules like misrepresenting a game state doesn't seem right. Ever know that there isn't a direct rule on this, if there was then NO one would do this. I am asking judges not to dig their heals in on this, to think deeply about this, and recongnize that there is a broken game mechanic here. This false starter solution isn't unfair, it is just a quick way to avoid the staring contests.

 

[L00p_H01eS]

is it possible for you to say to the oppo

"i have a mulligan but i will show and shuffle after you finished ur setup"?

 

[SLOW DECK]

is it possible for you to say to the oppo

"i have a mulligan but i will show and shuffle after you finished ur setup"?

The information of a Mulligan is the information the your opponent should not have until THEY place there basic starter. This is the issue.

If both players placed their basic or declared a mulligan instaneously then we would have this issue now would we. Instaneously is a theory, not reality.

 

[AzNightmare]

Well... this is how my friends and I play it.

Step 1. Draw 7 cards.
Step 2a. Place basics down.
Step 2b. Declare mulligan if you have no basics in your hand. Show your opponent.
Step 3. Place 6 Prize Cards.
Step 4. NOW, the player (that already has his basic and prize card set down on the table) draws an extra card.

The player cannot exchange his already face down active basic with another Pokemon.
Basically, you cannot change your basic after you draw a mulligan,
and you cannot change it after your "game starting" coin toss/dice roll.

I believe my steps make this thread and any staring contests pretty redundant, yes?

Rulebook:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6588/mulligan.jpg

I can barely see why it would even matter knowing whether you will get a mulligan card or not, as you cannot see the
mulligan card until after you have decided your starter.

 

[Dennis Hawk]

Good to see some high-level discussion here. Obviously declaring mulligan will give away information about your deck - even if you don't get to see the mulliganer's hand before placing down yours.

- Does not play a lot of basics, maybe donkable
- Propably plays evolution deck

These alone can be deciding factors when choosing a starter pokémon.

After seeing ones mulligan hand, it's even more obvious. This is the point where the active should be decided. But even after this, seeing something like Darkness energy will propably accelerate any Gengar player starting with Gastly into playing second basic down, even if that would be something useless on the long run.

But false cards have their downsides, too - if you're just placing down a false active, your opponent may think it's donkable and you have finished the setup, opting for something like Sableye start instead of something more beneficial (well, there usually isn't anything more beneficial than Sableye start, but that's just for an example). Same thing if you play down multiple fake cards - your opponent will think you're playing a deck with lots of basics and will react accordingly. As number of pokémon on the start is common knowledge as we know it and putting down fake starters to your bench is not, you will surely have some long discussions with the judge should you attempt this at a tournament.

So yes, staring contest is propably your best option if you know that your opponent is going to exploit the knowledge of your starting board. Just keep the SotG up.

 

[Twosips]

It seems like a simple solution would be this....


Step 1. Draw 7 cards.

Step 2a. [DEL]Place basics down.[/DEL] Each player puts one card face down in the active position. If you have a basic pokemon in your starting hand, you must place a basic . If you have no basic pokemon, then you place a nonbasic or trainer or supporter or stadium.

Step 2b. Once each player has placed their card declare mulligan if you have no basics in [DEL]your [/DEL][DEL]hand[/DEL] the starting position or your hand. Show your opponent.

Step 3. Place 6 Prize Cards.
Step 4. NOW, the player (that already has his basic and prize card set down on the table) draws an extra card.

Make it mandatory to put a card in the active position whether its basic or not to eliminate any potential advantage.

 

[AzNightmare]

It seems like a simple solution would be this....


Step 1. Draw 7 cards.

Step 2a. [DEL]Place basics down.[/DEL] Each player puts one card face down in the active position. If you have a basic pokemon in your starting hand, you must place a basic . If you have no basic pokemon, then you place a nonbasic or trainer or supporter or stadium.

Step 2b. Once each player has placed their card declare mulligan if you have no basics in [DEL]your [/DEL][DEL]hand[/DEL] the starting position or your hand. Show your opponent.

Step 3. Place 6 Prize Cards.
Step 4. NOW, the player (that already has his basic and prize card set down on the table) draws an extra card.

Make it mandatory to put a card in the active position whether its basic or not to eliminate any potential advantage.

Excellent. :thumb:

 

[Lawman]

Bottom line, reread the portion of the rules that deal with "dubious game actions". Those are acts that are intent to MISLEAD your oppo. How can laying down dummy cards in either just the active position or along with some bench spaces when they arent fossils/basic pokes be anything other than a "dubious act"? You are trying to "influence" the other players actions.

BTW, you have 2 mins to set up. That is in the tourney rules. So, no staring contest will work. If I, as a judge, came up on 2 players sitting there like bumps on a log, neither one declaring an active OR declaring a mulligan and the gamestate is not progressing, I'd ask if we are here to play pokemon or stare? There should be ZERO angle shooting here. Simply draw 7 cards, look thru them. It is easy to see if you have a mulligan or not. Your oppo should know if they have a mully or not. If they DONY have a mully, they should TIMELY set a poke down. As the oppo, you shouldnt "require" them to go 1st, if you both have basics. A simple Q solves the day...."Do you have a mulligan?" if they have placed zippo down. They will either say A) Yes B) No...(ans possibly add...still thinking about my active choice) or C) Do you have a mulligan? If you are both asking about a mully, it probably means you both have one.

No true adv is gained by declaring a mulligan IMO. Every deck I have ever run in playing this game since 2003/04 has had a mulligan. Low basic totals, high basic #s, normal distribution....doesnt matter! That is ZERO clue as to what deck I am playing. Get real, OK! You can GUESS all you want, but until I reveal my hand and you see the type of energy, evos, trainers, etc, there, you have no clue to what I am running.....unless you saw my deck in the rd or 2 before. Then, you dont need to know that extra tidbit, you know the deck you are facing. I just dont get the drama here.

As Fail pointed out....seeing a solo poke out may cause a player to go for the donk. Seeing bench pokes (or supposed bench pokes) may influence what he starts with. It is the same with most players.

Why not simply place your cards face down on the table if you get a mully? That way, no "harm" is done to the game state and it shows you are waiting for the oppo to declare an active before you reveal the mully. If you both do that, then you know it is a dbl mully.

@Dave321: Once a player places the active poke, the RULES state that you cannot change it out. That is why I say doing it the way SLOW DECK states is improper. The rules say, leave the active in its position! How can he leave it there when it was a false card????

Keith

 

[SLOW DECK]

With all respect to you Keith, Dubious Game actions rule here I disagree with. Myself and Ness and most of the players he hangs with would rather lose and SCOOP with dignity over using ANY DUBIOUS actions. DUBIOUS if it means, crafty and subterfuge our GAME ACTIONS, that is the game we love. Should we just anounce our actions and intent.

"So not to appear DUBIOUS, I am going to tell you what my intent of this game action will be. I will use Memory berry Flygon to use tranpinch Sand Tomb attack for 6 turns, and discard large parts of your deck. And before your Azelf is KO'd, I will use pokeblowers to blower up your pokemon that you have been putting energy on to KO it, then I will walk through the rest of your board. I would need for you to understand that I had NO intention of KO's the Azelf, but only to hold it in place so that you could not attack me as I set up. I don't want my play to be considered DUBIOUS in it's intent, thus if I anounce my entire GAME PLAN to you I am now won't be considred to be involved in DUBIOUS Game actions."

I just think there is a hole in this part of the rules, and I think it can be plugged. Dubious Game actions isn't a fix.

 

[Lawman]

Answer me this SLOW DECK. Do you agree that putting a proxy/false card as an active when in fact you have none is trying to influence your oppo's set up?

As to the STRATEGY of a deck, that is not "dubious". That is playing the card as written. In fact, at a CC during the GA marathon, I was playing Dialga tank and my oppo (pokemom) was playing shuppet donk. I got the Dialga up early w/ special metal and kept saying "Deafen for 10". She couldnt hurt me at all with the dinks and fade outs. Her PPs, Belts, etc were all trapped in her hand. After many quick turns of this, I told her I would never break the lock and would be able to slowly take prizes or simply power up my benched Chompy C and when time is called, I would 80 anything with the Chompy X for any prize I needed to win. She scooped. Better to share and educate at that point vs. waiting all 40 mins for the win.

@Rob: You also didnt answer my query as to what adv. a mully start actually gives a player if they dont know what deck you are playing. Wont you still play the smartest way for your deck?? If I am playing Dialga tank and get a dialga G in opening hand, I will start with the tank, unless I had prior knowledge of oppo's deck from seeing him/her play in a previous rd near me. Like I said, every deck ever made will mulligan at some point!

Keith

 

[SlimeyGrimey]

@Rob: You also didnt answer my query as to what adv. a mully start actually gives a player if they dont know what deck you are playing. Wont you still play the smartest way for your deck?? If I am playing Dialga tank and get a dialga G in opening hand, I will start with the tank, unless I had prior knowledge of oppo's deck from seeing him/her play in a previous rd near me. Like I said, every deck ever made will mulligan at some point!

Keith

It could influence your decision if you have some hand that gives you high odds of a quick win with an extra card or two. Maybe you have a choice between Crobat G and Azelf as a starter and have Psychic and a Poketurn in hand in a deck that plays a lot of pluspower effects. It could be worth starting the Azelf here if you knew your opponent was going to mulligan so you could try to get an extra pluspower effect for a quick win.

 

[Lawman]

It could influence your decision if you have some hand that gives you high odds of a quick win with an extra card or two. Maybe you have a choice between Crobat G and Azelf as a starter and have Psychic and a Poketurn in hand in a deck that plays a lot of pluspower effects. It could be worth starting the Azelf here if you knew your opponent was going to mulligan so you could try to get an extra pluspower effect for a quick win.

In this scenario, you would have to start 2nd. No trainers going 1st. Again, you gain NO adv. knowing the oppo has a mully before you place down your starter bc you dont know if they will start w/ a lone active after the mully or a bench. Likewise, the flip/roll to see who goes 1st occurs AFTER set up!

Keith

EDIT: It could influence you in an ADVERSE way if the oppo "declares" or shows a lone basic start and you decide to go for the donk. You place your active and/or bench, set prizes up and then the oppo goes..."Aha.,I really have a mully" and picks up that false active card. THAT is the dubious action I am talking about.

 

[SLOW DECK]

@Rob: You also didnt answer my query as to what adv. a mully start actually gives a player if they dont know what deck you are playing. Wont you still play the smartest way for your deck?? If I am playing Dialga tank and get a dialga G in opening hand, I will start with the tank, unless I had prior knowledge of oppo's deck from seeing him/her play in a previous rd near me. Like I said, every deck ever made will mulligan at some point!

Keith, thanks for highlighting some questions. (I have been traveling this week so I haven't had time to get back here regularly). All deck's have mulligans, yes. And many times, (many many), knowledge of the mulligan isn't going to change anything. But I did discussed the scenario where you have a Magickarp Donk potential, but you need one more card. Energy was what the one card that I discussed. But the fact that knowledge of having a mulligan card might actually lead to a different starter. There are probably many other scenarios in the current format, and many more in the future formats that might have a effect. To say it probably doesn't matter, doesn't mean it DOESN'T MATTER in every scenario. It could, thus that is why this is an issue.

Answer me this SLOW DECK. Do you agree that putting a proxy/false card as an active when in fact you have none is trying to influence your oppo's set up?

Yes, I am trying to get my opponent to play there starting pokemont as fast as possible. I should not tell them that I have a Mulligan until they have placed a starting pokemon. Please review the name of this thread. Alternatively, we can play the waiting game on who show's and COMMITS to there starter. Again, the Question on the top of this thread is WHO SHOWS FIRST. Not how to trick my opponent. I generally think that I play above board at all times, thus when someone says my game play stinks, I do take offense. (You know because......, my stuff doesn't stink....)

The issue is WHO SHOWS FIRST ISN'T DEFINED. IT IS SOMEHOW SUGGEST THAT WE SHOW TOGETHER. But we don't go One, Two, Three... SHOOT like someone does in Rock, Paper, Scizors. Actually, funny enough, there is rules about how to play Rock Paper Scizors, but not who put's down the basic first.

WHO SHOWS FIRST. Is the question and the issue. Players showing a False Starter is just a way that reasonable players have believed is reasonable way of resolving this issue. Thus if I do have a basic, this will be it.. Without that competitive angeling "staring contest" as NESS suggest would go on.

WHO SHOWS FIRST.

If judges are saying I can't show a false starter. I ASK... WHO SHOWS FIRST. Do I say I have a Mulligan, or does my opponent put's down their basic. WHO SHOWS FIRST. If judges say as soon as you find that you have a Mulligan, you need to immediately let your opponent know, great.... Then the angler won't look at their cards until their opponent's puts down a basic so they don't have knowledge of the potential mulligan....

Again, to people like myself and Ness who have a high sense of fair play, the false starter was a "honorable" solution to this hole in the set up mechanic.

 

[Diaz]

Lawman, it seams you shooting down a proposed solution to a serious problem, but not suggesting any other way to fix that problem. I feel like your suggesting that we just ignore the problem altogether, and pretend it isn't affecting the way every single game, which to me sounds ridiculous. I think dismissing it as not a big deal, when many players have stated that it effects every game's set up, is harmful to making the game better, which is everyone's goal here.