Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

National’s Participant Compensation: A Suggestion to PUI

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Pokehoser

New Member
I expect most of the participants in the Pokemon National Championships Tournament traveled a great distance to get to Origins solely for the purpose of participating, and hopefully winning an invitation to the World Championships in Orlando. Players, and their parents, spent hundreds of dollars to attend the event (hotel, food and travel - either mileage or airline flights). I know I spent close to $800 and took vacation time from work so my son could participate. The only reason we traveled to Columbus was to participate in the tournament; we would not have gone to Origins otherwise.

So what did we get for our $800 and time? Players and their parents spent around 20 hours at the tournament hall in frustration, the tournament turning into an endurance test rather than a fun event. Were you mentally and physically ready for the tournament when it eventually started? How about at the end of Swiss rounds? Did the best Pokemon player win your age group, or did the player with the best stamina walk away with the prizes? Were tempers flaring because players were tired, angry, hungry, and frustrated? Did the unchecked cheating hurt our chances of winning? I guess you could argue that this is all part of the game, but I would strongly disagree. This isn’t Magic, nor would a Magic tournament be run so poorly. This is a game where kids under the age of 10 play.

So what did we get for our $800 investment in the game? A promo Charizard, a t-shirt, a few packs of cards, and a lot of painful waiting and frustration. The players in the tournament, and their families that paid for this trip, deserve much more for their time and money. Regardless of who was responsible for the numerous foul ups, PUI is ultimately responsible and accountable. It is up to PUI to make it right, and a few booster packs and an apology are not enough to compensate the kids (and their parents) for suffering through this grueling, marathon catastrophe.

My suggestion for compensation: start by inviting all the participants in the National Championships at Origins to participate in the World Championships in Orlando, and ensure them that PUI will fix the problems that we saw at National’s. Those that participated at Origins are entitled to at least this much, if not much more. No excuses PUI (not enough time, money, space, staff, etc.) - figure it out and just do it.
 
If I remember right, it is a volunteer basis. It's your responsability to factor in how much the travel and game will cost you, NOT for PUI to figure out how much it owes the participant. Honestly, why you go in EXPECTING so much in the first place?? To spend $$800 on a game of chance is your own problem if your not happy with the results. Nothing is ever guaranteed, prizes were listed on the WEBSITE, this wasn't like the Fan Appreciation Wizards held where they needed to clean out house for the change over. WAS PUI supposed to make sure you WON so you GOT your moneys worth? Give them a break. We would have gladly made the trip but we factored in if it would be doable or not.

We are spending quite a bit of time and money ourselves to attend Worlds and ALL on the chance we'll place high enough in the Grinder (If not won at the Stadium). Hey ya know what, if we don't, I'm sure there will be plenty of other events to make our time and money worth while. The time we get to just play make new friends and meet many poke players we hear about is all WORTH our time and money. We planned our Family Vacation around Worlds, Pokemon is a Family game not a Money Investment.

Basically my point, you chose to attend Origins on your own terms, don't go in expecting to be given product just because you showed up. Especially to ask for an auto invite for your time!! In PUI defense, you don't know there's a problem or bugs till the system is maxed out and put into play, the only way to learn is from ERROR.

By the way, I bet that Promo Charizard looks nice in your collection. The card only given out at Nationals, man we should be griping because PUI didn't make it available to EVERYONE & EVERYWHERE, but that's the way things go. Exclusives wouldn't be exclusives if they were just handed out everywhere!!

See ya at Worlds!
 
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You cannot be serious!

Even if one agrees that some compensation should be offered (and I see no basis for that) you suggestion would have a serious negative impact on the Worlds tournament. They (assume that PUI) made that tournament invitation only partly to limit the size of the field, partly to ensure that only serious players particpated. I am not suggesting that you and your son are not serious players, just that a blanket invitation would include players who might not be.

PUI creates a tournament where you can play for free, get free stuff and - if successful - good prices. Asking for more is simply not reasonable. Your choice to spend $800 to try to qualify your son for worlds was just your decision.
 
To my knowledge, I believe the Team Multiplayer Championship at GenCon last year went to 4AM... swiss was over at around 10:30 and Rochester draft for Top8 didnt get finished until 1AM.

What'd we get? A couple of packs and some promos. (We didn't even get an apology for the tournament going on so late)


This is why they don't put an end time for tournaments, only a start time

Also, you have to realise that Worlds is sort of a 'controlled' event meaning they have a set number of participants and set number of rounds. Inviting 100 extra people is going to make Worlds lose its exclusiveness and its competitiveness.


Sorry your son didn't win, but thats just how this game works. People win, and people don't.
 
mewsmom said:
In PUI defense, you don't know there's a problem or bugs till the system is maxed out and put into play, the only way to learn is from ERROR.
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There has been numorous problems with the TMS Program since it's release. There was a list of bugs in the program awhile back on the board, don't know where exactly, I'm sure if I had some time I'd run a search for it. My point is, Pokemon USA has known about these problems with TMS and have virtually done little to improve on it, aside from monthly minor releases that solve only two or three minor problems.

It is the program designer's fault for not testing the program and extending the limits of the software beyond 98 unique players. It is Pokemon USA's fault for relying on untested technology and failing to put money behind fixing the problems. There should be no major errors at an event of this scale, but it did happen. Hopefully as a result, things will change. But with all the other promises we've beem given, I'm sure this one will be fixed in Fall 2003.

I really feel that, no offense, if you were not in attendance the day of US Nationals, you have very little credibility to any replies on this subject. Sure, yes, other event at past conventions have gone that late or later, but they were either:

1. Sealed (Construction Time)
2. Team Play (Hour Matches)
3. Multiple Formats (Constucted and Sealed)
4. Rochester Finals

All those take 10 times more time than a Modified Constructed event.

As for compensation? I wouldn't expect it nor am I banking my future on an free invite to Worlds. The tee shirts and the promo, as well as the two free packs that Dave S. passed out for damage control, exceed the admission price. But the damage done as a result of Pokemon USA's lack of preplanning and financial support towards organized play cannot be refunded to anyone in attendance. That price is too high.
-Phil
 
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I still think the best players won and this is NOT a game for just kids under 10. You are trying to get something out of a bad situation. It was a catastrophe but you make it seem like we were all on the edge of dying. The delays were challenging but far from life threatening. From what you say it seems like you son is under 10. That tournament was done far earlier than the all the others. Try being one of the 15+ that were there till 3 am. Everyone being invited to worlds is crazy. It won't happen and a lot of the kids dont deserve to go to it. It would dilute the image of it being for the best players. Compensation is not necessary. Take what you got and don't complain.
 
GymLeaderPhil said:
I really feel that, no offense, if you were not in attendance the day of US Nationals, you have very little credibility to any replies on this subject. Sure, yes, other event at past conventions have gone that late or later, but they were either:


OMG- Hey you know what, I've attended many events and the few Complaints coming from Nationals sound no different then the few complaints from other tourneys. One bad apple didn't get his trip or prizes expected so they need to bash the host. I'm sure there are alot more happy players who were just glad they could attend then the sour apples in the bunch who THINK they deserve to be treated like royalty because they attended and supported PUI.

So who else ran a tourney with more than 98 players to see what bugs needed to be worked out? I think TX has one of the largest records and it was less then that. But my point to stay on topic, Give PUI a break. They've had less than a year to take over, build from scratch what Wizards has had years to master, create and organize many events with trips at stake, get out several new sets and so on.

I think the only thing PUI should be guilty of is not knowing the LARGE support of players who do support and LOVE the game. As one of those players I have the right to comment on the sour apple who feels he should be given a honorary invite because he feels Nationals was a waste of his time.

So why do you justify one event going longer than another ok, but THIS one at Nationals has no excuse? Just because PUI ran it themselves and not your local TO, just sounds like someone needs to complain!! Read the boards, I'm sure there were many complaints from other events running at Nationals and plenty from Wizard held events as well. Ya just can't PLEASE them all!!
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Oh, and, no disrespect to anyone....

If you looked at the 10- age division, and compared the final 2 players to the National Rankings....there was a strange correlation.

Also, when you enter a high-level event like this at any age division and expect to win automatically, you have to be kidding yourself. This is an event attended only by the best of the best. Even the best facing the best, on a good day, beat the other person maybe 60% of the time. Spread that out over 7 rounds, and you are, on average 4-3. Not nearly good enough to "make it" in the elimination rounds. To go there expecting a trip, was deluding yourself, unless you really went on a roll.

I have no idea how the other divisions fared, but the best players, in my mind, did make the finals of 10-, (and it was, no kidding, a division of ELITE young players), and I would assume some of the BEST players did make the finals in the other divisions.

There are still a few more chances...come on down to Texas next week!!

Meganium45
 
Read my post, running a modified constructed tournament should not end at the same time last year's Team Tournament ended at. Out of all the different formats, constructed single player should take the least time... something that we have not seen go into the wee hours of the morning at a convention. There has never been a single player constructed event that has gone this long at any of the Pokemon conventions, I'm sorry, that just simply has not happened. It's either been sealed, team, or rochester that slowed other major con events down.

I'm not saying that I should recieve compensation for the bad event. I also don't consider myself a member of the produce family, there were plenty of bad apples who played in the event and caused problems. But there's a clear difference between supporting and sucking up to Pokemon Organized Play. Anyone who says this event was flawless is trying to milk something out of somebody. There needs to be critisism... nothing ever will change without it.

For a company that is business partners with a company who creates VIDEOGAMES, I feel there is no excuse that we do not already have a SIMPLE computer program, as soslowpoke was saying over instant messaging... I'm not giving a break to PUI for that.
-Phil
 
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GymLeaderPhil said:
I really feel that, no offense, if you were not in attendance the day of US Nationals, you have very little credibility to any replies on this subject. Sure, yes, other event at past conventions have gone that late or later, but they were either:
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Phil,

I like you a lot, I really do.
But sometimes, you can come across as very arrogant.

Many of us (myself included) are not Pokemon Professors. Personally, I came into the game too late. But to indicate that we cannot understand the context of a given situation based on information provided by an eye witness is insulting to our intelligence. My, how little would get done in the world if it was only people who had first-hand experience in such situations trying to solve problems. First of all, it would be impossible - it would be like expecting the President to directly witness every world crisis. He simply cannot - so he relies on people to provide him with accurate and up-to-date information, and then, in turn, on his own ability to interpret the situation and act on it.

Secondly, to attempt to reply solely on those who were there would be an undeniable misallocation of resources.
For instance: Although I have never organized a premier event, I have, in the course of my business, organized events which dwarf a 300 person tournament. I have designed and implemented events which thousands of people have attended, events which have helped bring about changes in social attitudes of entire communities.

I am not bragging (well, maybe a little) but I am trying to make a point. There are many like me, who can contribute in their own ways to the discussion, and eventually, to the solution.

~ Jim
 
Hey Jim and others...

To appreciate any piece of artwork, you have to see it first hand. To understand what happened at US Nationals would require the same. There are many details that many people have left blank. First hand accounts from others here will be jaded, including my posts on the chaos at Origins. I have an opinion that could be drastically different from another in attendance who reports on the event. It paints a very different picture and as such, unless you were in attendance, you're depending upon what others say. Just like the President depends on others to complete or report credible information... look at the WMD catastrophie.

I agree with you that others have a right to comment or pass judgement, but someone who was on the scene of the crime is far more credible than a random person commenting on the crime. Please feel free to reply, but if you are going to deny something or assume that an eye witness is taking something out of context, those eyewitnesses will simply rip up your reply. To say the Nationals event is similar to previous convention events is simply wrong and I'm sure others who played will agree.
-Phil
 
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Perhaps it was bad. The reports seem to indicate so, especialy when officials come out and seemingly take responsiblity. All I'm saying is that we need to stay open minded. I have learned that placing blame rarely (if ever) does any good. More often than not, all it does is anger people.

We are all part of the community, and we must all, in our own way, be allowed to be part of the solution. If if we reply saying things that make no sense at all - those things must be said because it balances the truth with the fiction and shows us the contrasting ideas which are needed to find what works best.
 
GymLeaderPhil said:
Hey Jim and others...

To appreciate any piece of artwork, you have to see it first hand. To understand what happened at US Nationals would require the same. There are many details that many people have left blank. First hand accounts from others here will be jaded, including my posts on the chaos at Origins. I have an opinion that could be drastically different from another in attendance who reports on the event. It paints a very different picture and as such, unless you were in attendance, you're depending upon what others say. Just like the President depends on others to complete or report credible information... look at the WMD catastrophie.

I agree with you that others have a right to comment or pass judgement, but someone who was on the scene of the crime is far more credible than a random person commenting on the crime. Please feel free to reply, but if you are going to deny something or assume that an eye witness is taking something out of context, those eyewitnesses will simply rip up your reply. To say the Nationals event is similar to previous convention events is simply wrong and I'm sure others who played will agree.
-Phil
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Hey Gym, yes you are right but your reply doesn't pertain to this particular post. If this was a post on how to improve PUI because of Nationals then (which there are some on the forum, and I haven't posted to), NO I or whoever wasn't there wouldn't have much ground to post unless they have the 1st hand in knowing or have major event tourney running experience. I never replied to improve Nationals or Worlds to come, I replied to Pokehoser's request that he states several times,
How he should be compesated for his $800 investment!!!! This is the main topic in the post and stated several times. The problems he encountered with Nationals (I'm sure he's not alone) are not new. There's always something at tourneys regardless of how long they've been ran. My points were to stress this is PUI's 1st MAJOR event and how could one not expect there to be complications.

Regardless of the complications, Pokehoser is just not in a world of reality on his compesation request.
 
mewsmom said:
How he should be compesated for his $800 investment!!!! This is the main topic in the post and stated several times. The problems he encountered with Nationals (I'm sure he's not alone) are not new. There's always something at tourneys regardless of how long they've been ran. My points were to stress this is PUI's 1st MAJOR event and how could one not expect there to be complications.

Regardless of the complications, Pokehoser is just not in a world of reality on his compesation request.
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Obviously you were not at the Origins event, and obviously you did not comprehend the original post. I am not asking for reimbursement for my expenses, for if I was there are legal ways to go about it. I am looking for equitable compensation for those that had to endure what PUI put us through.

As for EXPECTATIONS, I expect that when a reputable company like Nintendo/PUI runs a national event like this that the event is: professionally run, the organizers have some modicum of control over cheating, and the players can enjoy playing and fairly competing with each other. Those were my only expectations for the event. I did not expect my son to earn a top spot in the tournament, nor did I expect him to win a trip to Worlds or any other prizes. We went to have fun because we enjoy the game.

As for winning and not getting prizes, that is not the issue. If fairly and properly run, no one would complain, and the participants would have enjoyed attending.

As for your defense of PUI - there is none. You are correct in stating that the only way to debug software is to use it and beta test it. It is through this process that one discovers and corrects the bugs. You do not try out software on a major tournament, have serious problems, and then say “Sorry everyone, but you helped us out for the next guys. Thanks and good day.” That simply has no defense. Would you like to try out company X’s new cardiac monitoring software without proper testing beforehand? What should we tell your family when the software fails? “Sorry about that, but you helped the next guy out a lot.”

As for the suggested invites to Worlds, I still believe it is reasonable to ask for. I agree that those that have already won invitations may be upset about this because they earned their invitations. However, the people who came to Nationals expecting a reasonable chance to compete for those invitations, and to reasonably expect to enjoy the tournament, were seriously disappointed (I don’t know how to put that any stronger in words fit for this board). People were not afforded the opportunity to enjoy a major tournament and fairly compete for whatever prizes were offered, AND it is the sole responsibility of PUI to address the players that they so brutally and negligently offended by enticing players to come to this disaster. An invitation to World’s, if this tournament were run properly, would afford those players at National’s an opportunity to play in a major tournament, in a fair environment, and to enjoy the event. That opportunity was an implicit promise to them when they signed up for Nationals, and a reasonable expectation. The fact that Nationals went off as it did is simply unconscionable.
 
But wouldn't inviting all those people to Worlds make the Worlds tourney unenjoyable for the people there who really did earn their invitation?
 
You cannot "give" free invites to attendees at Nat'ls bc the conditions were poor. That would be akin to giving all the PGA pros a US Open trophy bc the golf course and a few holes were set up like beasts. Mickelson and Goosen were able to "conquer the beast" and play well under "those conditions". As they say, every player played under the same conditions! To diminish what any player did bc PUI screwed up is unrealistic.

Keith
 
Pokehoser said:
As for your defense of PUI - there is none. You are correct in stating that the only way to debug software is to use it and beta test it. It is through this process that one discovers and corrects the bugs. You do not try out software on a major tournament, have serious problems, and then say “Sorry everyone, but you helped us out for the next guys. Thanks and good day.” That simply has no defense. Would you like to try out company X’s new cardiac monitoring software without proper testing beforehand? What should we tell your family when the software fails? “Sorry about that, but you helped the next guy out a lot.”
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In response- Umm, do you use Windows or other Major computer programs? How often do they release a New Program and then months later have patches available because of bugs found out later. Oh my do you request for compesation or refund because of your time put into and using their program? If Microsoft Windows can't get it right on the first release of a program, how do you expect PUI with less than a year going in to get it all PERFECT on the 1st run.

Trust me I didn't need to be at Origins to know your request is ridiculous and uncalled for.
 
Okay... okay.. I was there with my son!

Yes, Nationals was poorly executed.

Yes, I lost, too!

Yes, I spent a lot of money, too! In fact, I spent way more than $800. That figure just barely covered our airfare. Add to that 4 nights/5 days of hotel and food, and I spent a bunch!

But, do I think that PUI owes me an invite to Worlds? Absolutely NOT! Because I didn't earn it! Plain and simple, I didn't earn it. I don't deserve it. And while it would be nice to get an invite, it would just ruin what the World Championship is all about.

And to be perfectly honest with you, my son and I enjoyed Nationals and all the events surrounding it! We had a blast! Maybe, it's because it's our first convention and first high-level tournament (as we just got into Pokemon recently), so I suppose it's possible that we just didn't know what to expect. Or maybe it's just because we weren't expecting too much.

We expected to play the game and have lots of fun playing it. That we did! We expected to see people we already knew, and meet lots of new people! It was a lot of fun meeting some of these Pokegym characters, too! This we did while waiting for the tournament to start and in between rounds. I think this is why I'm not so bitter about the whole fiasco. We made good use of our time, rather than just sitting there seething with anger and impatience.

I agree that it was a mess, but I also honestly feel that PUI and the other staff expected and wanted it to go a lot more smoothly than it did. It just doesn't make sense to say that they did this intentionally or that they knew what was going to happen -- or to insinuate anything along these lines. I'm sure that they don't like being in the position that they're in now -- Who would? It must be an awful feeling. I believe that they'll learn from this.

I also agree that they should have tested the software (just like they should have tested the team rules) prior to the event. I don't really know if they did or didn't, but either way, it all falls under the big mistake that they'll learn from.

I am not excusing what happened, but I'm saying that it's over and done with. Time to move on. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy yourselves as much as we did.

PS. Also remember that there were no guarantees. PUI never guaranteed that the tournament would last X amount of hours. They never guaranteed that you would have no wait, or that there would be no down time. The only implied guarantees were that the advertised events would be held. Therefore, since the events were held, no compensation or remuneration is necessary. Had we spent all that money and found out that the events had been cancelled, I'd be joining you in your quest for compensation.
 
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Team Cook said:
I agree that it was a mess, but I also honestly feel that PUI and the other staff expected and wanted it to go a lot more smoothly than it did. It just doesn't make sense to say that they did this intentionally or that they knew what was going to happen -- or to insinuate anything along these lines. I'm sure that they don't like being in the position that they're in now -- Who would? It must be an awful feeling. I believe that they'll learn from this.
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Nobody is saying that PUI intended this to happen. I am certain they wanted everyone to have enjoyed the experience. No matter how hard they tried to run a respectable event, the fact is the outcome of all their effort angered many of their customers who felt that they wasted their time and money attending such a poorly run event.
 
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