Nationals - What kind of cheating was going on?

[Glumanda]

People drawing 3-4 cards per turn
Never put out prizes until like 5th turn
Extra energy attachments from hand
Stalling for 2-ish minutes without using cards, etc.
Drawing extra prizes
Stacking, drawing an opening hand quick, then refusing to shuffle back in and draw from a cut deck
Using Steven's Advice with a lot of stuff in hand
More than 1 Supporter a turn, and refusing to go back on it (even though it would be irreversible).
Trick dice, 10-siders, etc.

This is the reason why I think that penalties should be awarded regulary and in a way, that players are encouraged to learn from their faults and are discouraged from cheating (that includes to DQ every player you can proove of cheating!)
Everytime prizes are forget, there should be at least a caution. If it´s third turn and nothing really important happened, upgrade it to a warning. If several deck searching cards (Oracle, Strike And Run and so on), an upgrade to prize/game seems to be appropriate (and oppontent receiving warning for not catching this). Players who are warned or GL´d for this will learn, if you always give a caution and repear it ten times, players will not.

Two supporters in one turn can give a huge advantage and if this situation is not revertable, it is prize/game for me. If someone always forgots to lay his supporters next to his active, give him a caution and accelerate the penalty appropriatly. Players will then learn the rules.

As judge you have to give fairly severe, but fair penalties. Severe enough to hinder evil players from cheating, but fair enough to create a friendly atmosphere every player enjoys. The actual penalty guidelines only give weigth to the latter one, not to the first and are therefore inappropriate for judging tournaments. The rantings after US Nationals are IMO a clear sign that some players seem to read the guidelines very accurately and base their playing style on that.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Funny that the call about clear but absolute penalty's come from Europe.
I did also mentioned before that the guidelines give to much space for cheating.
It's indeed about playing the correct rules, and I know everyone will forgett his prices sooner or later.

Also in case of discarding a supporter, sorry turn over. It's written on the card (when your turn ends discard this card) and you will do it once and never forget.
Why should this kind of misplay be returned.

I know that's there are a lot situations which are very difficult to penalize because both players can have it right.
But as it looks now, more and more players are trying to get advantage out of softie guidelines.

For each situation there is a pro and a contra, but it all starts at leagues were players are supposed to learn the game. I prefer to have less players who are really playing this game the correct way. Than large events with a lot of noobs.

 

[Lord Broly]

If all this Cheating you guys keep bickering about
keeps going on. I think you should do either of
the following.

1)Write a letter to the Pokemon TCG HQ and
complain about it.
2)Address it during Worlds or the Next Big Event
3)Send an email to pokemon-tcg.com and complain.

Your Choice.

This game is suppose to be about having fun,
not a game that has a bunch of lying and
cheating.

 

[TheCrossFormatKid]

I heard someone was forced to change sleeves with complicated artwork on the back because people could mark it without others knowing or something like that. I forgot who that was but that person didn't seem bitter about it at all.

Yeah, ultra-pro released a new deck sleeve style, and lots of people were using them(not to cheat, but because they looked REALLY cool). The problem, however, is that the sleeves are not symetrical(neither on the x or y axis) _at_all_. Indeed they are very different. It was thought that some people could take advantage of this and turn a few sleeves around and be able to tell where certain cards are. PUI dissallowed them for the tournament(WotC banned them from all tournaments), and whenever someone was informed of this, they switched sleeves without a problem. I seriously doubt that anyone using these sleeves was trying to cheat.

 

[SD PokeMom]

As judge you have to give fairly severe, but fair penalties. Severe enough to hinder evil players from cheating, but fair enough to create a friendly atmosphere every player enjoys. The actual penalty guidelines only give weigth to the latter one, not to the first and are therefore inappropriate for judging tournaments. The rantings after US Nationals are IMO a clear sign that some players seem to read the guidelines very accurately and base their playing style on that.

I agree, and that was my first impression upon reading the new penalty guidelines when they came out.

Large prizes at stake + lenient penalty guidelines = recipe for exactly this type of thing...

'mom

 

[Articjedi]

I'm just wondering, do you mean the ultra pro sleeves that are kinda smelly and are rough on the back?

 

[annisarich]

Yeah, ultra-pro released a new deck sleeve style, and lots of people were using them(not to cheat, but because they looked REALLY cool). The problem, however, is that the sleeves are not symetrical(neither on the x or y axis) _at_all_. Indeed they are very different. It was thought that some people could take advantage of this and turn a few sleeves around and be able to tell where certain cards are. PUI dissallowed them for the tournament(WotC banned them from all tournaments), and whenever someone was informed of this, they switched sleeves without a problem. I seriously doubt that anyone using these sleeves was trying to cheat.

PUI supplied replacement sleves to these players.

 

[DaytonGymLeader]

The Sleeve Issue that was brought up at Nationals has to deal with the new UltraPro sleeves with the dragon artwork on the back. The contention is that since the back of the sleeve is "busy" with all the artwork, it's easier to mark the sleeve because the marking would blend with the artwork. The DCI is considering the same for these sleeves. That call was also made by the Head Judge, not anyone on the TO's staff. PUI was nice enough to buy a bunch of replacement sleeves so that players could re-sleeve their decks. Expect an official word from PUI about this shortly, I hope.

As to cheating at Nationals, I will say this. Almost none of it was escalated to a Judge. If the staff doesn't know, it's harder for us to fix it. I can't count on both hands and feet the number of events that something like this happened and then the player who felt that cheating was going on brought it up either after the round was over or after the tournament was over. We're almost powerless to do anything about it but dedicate manpower to a single player for future rounds. If you see it happening or believe it to be happening, do not pass go, do not collect $200, CALL A JUDGE.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Steve, are you at World in the judgeteam?

 

[DaytonGymLeader]

Lia, neither of us will be at Worlds. We've already made other commitments to other events. That and Ashley has no interest in going.

 

[HYPER EEVEE]

MAN IN my nationals experience i saw soo many kids cheating hears what i saw
-On kid i played used archie without putting out prizes
-my friend played someone who used oracle with out prizes (nothing done even though hands were raised this allowed free range at the deck)
-yeah stevens advice with huge hands
- pretending like the die will fall off the edge and rerolling becaused really it was tails
-talking to outsiders
-ripped sleevs
-accusing people of cheating because they accused them of cheating
-dellcatty, oracle, and POR in a kids lap
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DONE FOR ANY OF THESE!
Zuber was the judge in my division and nothing was done no matter the severty
he was a good person just not a good judge in team multi play i asked him about sleep and i guess that was the first time someone brought it up to him. SO WHAT DOES HE DO HE TELLS EVERONE ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO WAKE UP. so all the decks were based on sleep even though it was just a different strategy gameplay was slow as well as boring yet fun

 

[annisarich]

MAN IN my nationals experience i saw soo many kids cheating hears what i saw
-On kid i played used archie without putting out prizes
Could just be a mistake, we all have done this once
-my friend played someone who used oracle with out prizes (nothing done even though hands were raised this allowed free range at the deck)
Again an accident could happen. was it cheating or a mistake
-yeah stevens advice with huge hands
This is something to watch for, but be carefull here, 6 cards to start is a good sized hand to begin with. Honest players usually show the # of cards in a hand first
- pretending like the die will fall off the edge and rerolling becaused really it was tails
Thats not good, call a judge
-talking to outsiders
Visitors and players finished with games should also refrain from this. I am sure they werent helping, just talking. Distracting yes, cheating no?
-ripped sleevs
Some sleves only last a few games. Call over a judge and ask them to look. If it takes a few min ...wait
-accusing people of cheating because they accused them of cheating
seems like a typical responce
-dellcatty, oracle, and POR in a kids lap
Where they from their hand? Much better to have dellcatty in play , again call a judge. DONT CONTINIE playing. If you let it slide thats your problem

Also pay attention to your game. If your opponent has a soft voice you need to really listen. Daydreaming and not hearing them announce a card or something and you miss what they did that turn is your problem. It also leads to you wondering how the game state got where it is. Which leads to thoughts of "they musta cheated"

Be very carefull with accusations. They are serious. Call the judge. DONT CONTINIE PLAYING until the matter is resolved.

In my softball play its the defences responsibility to make appeals. If on a play we had two runners leave early before a cought fly ball and two runners missing a base on a play and the defence doesnt appeal before the first next pitch. They are SOL.

My son got whooped and he also thought the guy musta done something underhanded. I asked him if maybe he just got whooped? Be careful with the word cheat.

 

[Professor_Chris]

In team multi play i asked him about sleep and i guess that was the first time someone brought it up to him. SO WHAT DOES HE DO HE TELLS EVERONE ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO WAKE UP. so all the decks were based on sleep even though it was just a different strategy gameplay was slow as well as boring yet fun

Well....duh? That was kinda his job...to explain the new rules. Had he not, there woulda been a whole lotta ticked people (the uninformed) who were at the mercy of Togepi from the people who knew what they were doing (the few informed). I was up there talking to Zuver about multiple rulings as well, and also knew about sleep before hand. You can't fault him for telling the masses, that was a major game changing rule for Team play and people had a right to know about it before heading into play.

 

[HYPER EEVEE]

IM sorry i was overlly mad ive colled down now and getting overly mad at nationals but i still had a good time

 

[DARKGeNGaR094]

Also in case of discarding a supporter, sorry turn over. It's written on the card (when your turn ends discard this card) and you will do it once and never forget.
Why should this kind of misplay be returned.

And that is fair... how?
I understand if someone actually plays another supporter, alright, give a penalty for it. But, say, not letting someone attack if he or she discards a supporter just before the attack is plain childish and picky and NOT what most people want in a FUN game.
Anyway, if that is "logical", then is it also logical that if my opponent doesn't make sure i discard my supporter at the end of my turn, that it is still my turn? Of course not, because it doesn't come from amsterdam's or aalsmeer's amazing unofficial leagues (oh, it's so hard and unfair).
And no, I have never discarded a supporter before the end of my turn, only see opponent's from said leagues complain about it to the person next to me. I tell them not to be silly.

 

[Master_Prof_Juggie]

Giday

This is what we do at the league / tournaments i run in New Zealand.

I have at least 1 judge for every 10 - 15 players. This means players don't have to wait for long before they get a judge for a ruling & also means there are alot of officials walking around watching for problems.

We enforce the full rules & Penalties are handed out as required. Don't get me wrong ... we have had frequent mistake / cheaters in the past ... they either learnt to play correctly or have left the league.

New players learn from their mistakes & ALL the players understand the consequences for not following the rules properly.

As a result ... some of you may think this is harsh, but our league is GROWING, not getting smaller like alot of leagues around the world. We now have well over 200 players registered & climbing.

New players / parents have commented, they came because they've heard we've got a league with respected players / judges & we don't tolerate foul play in any form.

The players ALL know to call a judge if they're unsure of something within their game... it's taught this way so it becomes second nature to them.

When they get to Big events ... they're normally the ones calling the judges for the opponents mistakes / cheating because it's become a habit. The situation may get them nervous or flustered, but because they're use to calling for a judge ... they'll do it.

If EVERY league was run this way ... imagine the bigger events ... so much smoother for the judging staff & so much better for the players.

Just my views on how this Mistake / Cheating problem can be reduced.

 

[annisarich]

Supporters:
You can only play one supporter each turn.
When you play this card, put it next to your active pokemon.
When your turn ends, discard this card.

It does not say discarding your card ends this turn.

If your oponent puts a supporter in the discard pile you should remind them to leave it out. It is put next to the active to remind both players that a supporter has been played this turn. If one forgets to discard it at the end of the turn. The oponent should remind the other player to discard.

Attacking ends your turn. Not placing a Supporter in your discard pile. Correct this when it happens, as soon as possible. Preventative maintaince to avoid confusion later.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I don't agree, you can also end your turn without attacking. Normally you will say end turn.
If you don't put it aside your active, but place it on the discard then your turn ends. It's right there on the cards.

 

[davechri]

And that is fair... how?
I understand if someone actually plays another supporter, alright, give a penalty for it. But, say, not letting someone attack if he or she discards a supporter just before the attack is plain childish and picky and NOT what most people want in a FUN game.
Anyway, if that is "logical", then is it also logical that if my opponent doesn't make sure i discard my supporter at the end of my turn, that it is still my turn? Of course not, because it doesn't come from amsterdam's or aalsmeer's amazing unofficial leagues (oh, it's so hard and unfair).
And no, I have never discarded a supporter before the end of my turn, only see opponent's from said leagues complain about it to the person next to me. I tell them not to be silly.

We were laughing about this when someone got called on it at Nationals.

For this to be true (discarding your supporter ends your turn), then it is logical that the opposite MUST be true also - if you don't discard your supporter, your turn never ends.

Goofy stuff, to be sure.

 

[Shukuen Shinobi]

Supporters:
You can only play one supporter each turn.
When you play this card, put it next to your active pokemon.
When your turn ends, discard this card.

It does not say discarding your card ends this turn.

If your oponent puts a supporter in the discard pile you should remind them to leave it out. It is put next to the active to remind both players that a supporter has been played this turn. If one forgets to discard it at the end of the turn. The oponent should remind the other player to discard.

Attacking ends your turn. Not placing a Supporter in your discard pile. Correct this when it happens, as soon as possible. Preventative maintaince to avoid confusion later.

I agree with Rich, The card states:

When your turn ends, discard this card.

If it was what is trying to be said, that your turn ended when you discard it, would be something like this:

When you discard this card, your turn ends.

So to me, it's just stating that you have to discard it after you end your turn, rather then before you attack. I don't think it's stating that you end your turn after you discard it, many people discard the card right after they play it, and right before they attack. If the official ruling is that when you discard it, your turn automatically ends, then the rule isn't being inforced that.