Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Net decking and SotG...

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BANGINBOX

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Hey all,

I spend a TON of time building, tearing, rebuilding decks to ensure that I get the MAXIMUM out of every card I put in there. I do this so that I may excel in this game with every tournament I play in. I have a serious problem with people who put NO time, money or EFFORT into the game.

I am tired of these people who come to the gym, pull a list, and bomb at a tournament. Then proceed to come back here and BASH the person who posted it in the first place looking for HELP!!! The deck forum is a HELPforum. Not a place to post up a list that has already been proven. Why would I want to post a list that I spent several weeks perfecting so some NEWB could take it and bomb with it???

While there are some that think we should post ALL lists available, I disagree.

I think netdecking itself is breaking the spirit of the game!!! THIEVES!!!

Discuss
jimmy
 
1. It doesn't boost fun for people thieving a deck.
2. It reduces fun for those who build the deck, only to have their time and energy stolen from them.

That's how it breaks SotG.
 
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's un-SotG-y.
There's nothing wrong with it. If a deck is proven to work effectively, people will use it. There's nothing wrong with that.
Only a small handful of produced cards are half decent - you can't expect everyone to use an original deck; the majority of the pokemon playnig population will end up using terrible cards.

BANGINBOX said:
I have a serious problem with people who put NO time, money or EFFORT into the game.
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This is a total contradiction, IMO. Netdecks are often expensive, therefore, if one puts no time or effort in, they're putting plenty of money in, and vice versa.
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with netdecking when it comes to SotG, but I feel like netdecking is not so great. I never netdeck myself and I hardly ever post my "random decks" on the gym.
Metanite is the WORST case of netdecking. I always lose to Metanite no matter what deck I build. If it wasn't posted on the gym, then maybe we'd see some more original deck ideas out there instead of having 4/8 decks in the top 8 of most tournaments being Metanite.
 
Burninating_Torchic said:
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's un-SotG-y.
There's nothing wrong with it. If a deck is proven to work effectively, people will use it. There's nothing wrong with that.
Only a small handful of produced cards are half decent - you can't expect everyone to use an original deck; the majority of the pokemon playnig population will end up using terrible cards.



This is a total contradiction, IMO. Netdecks are often expensive, therefore, if one puts no time or effort in, they're putting plenty of money in, and vice versa.
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There is a distinct difference between creating one's own interpretation of a deck that has been successful and netdecking. You are using the two synonymously and they're not.

You're arguing that it's okay to use the deck. Jimmy didn't say he disliked people who used the decks, he said he disliked people who NETDECKED lists. You can't just come on here and argue against a point Jimmy didn't make. That's called strawman and it's a logical fallacy.
 
ryanvergel said:
1. It doesn't boost fun for people thieving a deck.
2. It reduces fun for those who build the deck, only to have their time and energy stolen from them.

That's how it breaks SotG.
Click to expand...

Losing isn't fun.

Almost every new archtype is created by a team, not an individual. That's a FACT.

if you're not on TPC, LaFone, Team R, etc, one of the only ways you're going to be reasonably competitive in top-tier events is by deck imitation and net-decking.

1) The learning curve is too great for new players
2) New(er) players aren't members of those same types of groups and aren't going to generate those very solid decks.

My feeling about net-decking is this: once you play a deck or leak a list, it's out there, and it's not your property anymore. You can debate who made it, whatever, and that's fine, but I don't see how copying someone else is "wrong" - the decklist isn't intellectual property per-se.

This is really only an issue because the difference between the best players (the ones who are generating the best decks) and the lower tiers of players is exceptionally pronounced.

I do agree with Jimmy, tho - bashing someone after you've net decked them is pretty immature.
 
The basic argument here is that netdecking rips the fun out of deck creators because they spend lots of valuable time and effort into making decks.
Even despite their losing fun, the netdeckers do not GAIN any fun. There is no fun in shallow copying of a list. You can only appreciate something when you invest something into it. Netdeckers are not appreciative because they do not recognize the hard work it takes to make a good list because they are too selfish and unwilling to invest their own time and effort into making decks themselves.

Plenty of teams don't make lists. Has TPC created any archetypes recently that we should know about? Plenty of non-teams also create awesome decks/lists. Look at Colin M. He's in the top 10 of the world right now and he's always been pretty rogue. He won a states last year with gengar- his own deck. Look at the Silvestros, two people made Flariados. It's not really a team, it's just a father and son. Look at Ross, who made powblock. A one-man thing. It's usually one man's idea and people who assist and playtest. You make it sound like only people in a team can make a good list and have others playtest so that you can see its downsides and improve them.

Also, deck imitation is fine IMO. It still requires testing, time, etc. to generate a list. However, netdecking is where an individual copies a deck verbatim and plays it. Two big differences. If someone wanted to take the time and effort to make their own deck up based on another person's success with a similar deck, then they are still investing the time/effort that Jimmy speaks of.

Netdecking does not use any time/effort. All the time and effort it takes is to do a search on the gym and click print.

The learning curve really isn't that bad. To become good at ANY game it will take time and effort. You can't simply expect to win tournaments your first day (unless you're Lance...). It also doesn't take that much to get onto/create a good team. I did it right off the bat, and I was also apart of deck circles when I had only played the game for 2 months. All it takes is time and effort to better oneself.
 
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ryanvergel said:
Even despite their losing fun, the netdeckers do not GAIN any fun. There is no fun in shallow copying of a list. You can only appreciate something when you invest something into it. Netdeckers are not appreciative because they do not recognize the hard work it takes to make a good list because they are too selfish and unwilling to invest their own time and effort into making decks themselves.
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I just really disagree with that. It's nice in principal, but I don't buy it. Here's why:

1) Losing consistently is no fun.
2) You're going to lose consistently in top-tier events unless you are playing a solid deck with a solid list. There are, obviously, exceptions. you play something red face paint, and the meta is perfect for it, and you happen to get good matchups. But, on the whole, the average player isn't going to make a winning deck no matter how long they spend on it, because there are only a few combos that are really able to win.
3) That's why most of the SDs we see are control type decks.
4) It's a nice idea to say that winning means more when you work on something and pour your heart into it, and I, for the most part, agree with the sentiment. But the problem is that for most people it's just not realistic.

Netdecking DOES add fun for the players who do it because it gives them a chance to be reasonable competitive while at the same time learning about what the metagame's core is about (i.e. a proper Holon Engine).
 
PokéMart said:
I just really disagree with that. It's nice in principal, but I don't buy it. Here's why:

1) Losing consistently is no fun.
2) You're going to lose consistently in top-tier events unless you are playing a solid deck with a solid list. There are, obviously, exceptions. you play something red face paint, and the meta is perfect for it, and you happen to get good matchups. But, on the whole, the average player isn't going to make a winning deck no matter how long they spend on it, because there are only a few combos that are really able to win.
3) That's why most of the SDs we see are control type decks.
4) It's a nice idea to say that winning means more when you work on something and pour your heart into it, and I, for the most part, agree with the sentiment. But the problem is that for most people it's just not realistic.

Netdecking DOES add fun for the players who do it because it gives them a chance to be reasonable competitive while at the same time learning about what the metagame's core is about (i.e. a proper Holon Engine).
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Most people who netdeck lose. If we're taking this on a scale of average people, then point 1 is invalid because I've almost NEVER seen anyone netdeck and win. I really can't recall an instance where someone pulled a list off the internet and won an event with it. Netdecking won't make someone not lose consistently.

As for point 2, you can imitate a deck and create a solid list. Who said you have to NETDECK to arrive at a good list for an archetype? It's called making your own interpretation. Again, there is a difference between imitating and creating your own deck based off an idea and netdecking. You're making the two synonymous just like BT. I don't have a problem with imitation and then creation. I do have a problem with pure netdecking.
3 has nothing to do with netdecking or SotG.
 
I have netdecked before and won.

I was happy.

I netdecked queen when jeremy won. I almost never won a game anywhere, even at league.

I netdecked it, even if I didn't have all the carsd(life herb ftw). I won the league tourny w/queen.

That made me feel good, so I used queen all throughout the season because I liked it, and I changed it and made it my own.

Netdecking is good, it is like giving a trainer a starting pokemon instead of making him/her fight a nidoqueen with his/her bare hands.
 
moza said:
I have netdecked before and won.

I was happy.

I netdecked queen when jeremy won. I almost never won a game anywhere, even at league.

I netdecked it, even if I didn't have all the carsd(life herb ftw). I won the league tourny w/queen.

That made me feel good, so I used queen all throughout the season because I liked it, and I changed it and made it my own.

Netdecking is good, it is like giving a trainer a starting pokemon instead of making him/her fight a nidoqueen with his/her bare hands.
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The thing is, if people simply mimic a deck and make their own list out of it they will do the following things:

1. Improve their skills as a player and a deck-builder.
2. Know the deck better, and thus win more games.
3. Get more playtesting and matchups down, whereas in netdecking those crucial elements to winning a premier event cannot be given out.


Netdecking does not help the beginner. All it does is give them a fish for a day. They're much better off simply posting their interpetation of the deck in the deck help forum and having people (and themselves) work out the kinks. They improve a lot more that way and will, I believe, have a better shot at winning than by simply netdecking.

If your arguments are only that netdecking helps the bad player out, then my counter is that mimicry+testing will do what netdecking does twice as well, AND it won't take the time/effort/energy away from the original builders.
 
Getting a list from a friend is not netdecking. Netdecking=taking a list from the internet that a stranger posted. If a friend takes their time and effort and chooses to share it with you, that is not the same as netdecking. In the case we're arguing, the effort was ripped off. In the instance you show, the effort is given away. Very different. Your point is invalid.
 
If you use a deck at a tourny, you are giving away the deck.

If you use a deck at a tourny, you are sharing with everyone in that tourny.

The person who posted the deck took the time and effort to make it, and decided to share it with others
 
Here's my opinion on Netdecking:

There are thousands of players, yet only about 20 decks at a given time that can legitimately win a tournament. Mathematically, there has to be coppies of the same deck. Anyone that thinks every player in the game should play a different deck has no idea about how this game works, and probably doesn't even know how to spell his/her name. Netdecking is inevitable, but the thing that ISNT inevitable is what decks get leaked.

Let's discuss Jimmy's Destiny for instance. Anyone who PMs Jimmy for the list, and gets denied, is 10000% in the wrong for having sour grapes about it. People aren't expected to give out their lists. When you're playing to win, the only thing you have going for you is your skill, and list. Losing the secrecy on your list is such a big disadvantage, its SICK. So yea, nobody is ever "mean" or "anti-sotg" for not giving out a list. It's the same thing as showing hole cards in Poker. You're NEVER expected to show your hole cards in Poker, and are actually considered an idiot if you do. Asking someone to show you their hole cards in Poker after the hand is one of the rudest anti-sotg things you can do. If you push it too, after they say no, everyone at the table will hate you for the rest of the session, and never show you anything ever again.

Say Jimmy WAS to post his Destiny list though. At this point, it's 100% acceptable to netdeck the **** out of it (I know I would!). You'd be a fool not to take this free information and use it to your advantage in any possible way. After it's posted, Jimmy would be 100% in the wrong if he ever called someone a "dumb netdecker" for copying his list. HE POSTED IT! Of course it's going to get coppied.

Storekeeper: Hello Sir! We have a special on top secret info today! It's FREE! Would you like some FREE top secret info for FREE?

Idiot shopper: No thank you. I would not like any FREE secret info for FREE which will help me win more games for FREE. I would rather NOT have the FREE info and make it HARDER for me to win my games.
 
ryanvergel said:
Getting a list from a friend is not netdecking. Netdecking=taking a list from the internet that a stranger posted. If a friend takes their time and effort and chooses to share it with you, that is not the same as netdecking. In the case we're arguing, the effort was ripped off. In the instance you show, the effort is given away. Very different. Your point is invalid.
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if copying peoples decks off of the internet was so bad, why is it legal for decks to be posted? why is it that people WILLINGLY put their decks online for any random person to see? sure they want help with their deck, but they obviously do not care about the people that could possibly net them. also, if netting were so bad, why would the moderator ALLOW the presentation of their decks online, where any random person can net it. fact is, most people dont care if people net them, yet you say its bad if people net, which doesnt make much sense to me.
 
I agree with you jimmy that people should try by themselves to get the deck lists down to the tee. Net decking can be very angering especially when there is that person...
"Hey does anyone have a list for this"
I mean c'mon try the deck or try a list before you post that >.>
 
JIMMY wins with his decks because JIMMY plays them. One of the best and under-rated players
out there.

Read the 1st 2 sentences in the 1st paragraph of his post.That's why.



It's the singer not the song .........
 
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