Pokémon TCG's Power Nine?

[Scipio]

two words crobat ex way better then crobat g and with weezing crobat ex did a flash bite every turn :tongue:

Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

...Someone please tell me I misread that. Let me put it this way:

Crobat G >>>>> Kingdra Prime >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crobat Ex

 

[mysterioustrainer]

I would have to say the nine most broken cards are:

"Overeager" Sableye (Platnium) - This card allows you to go first, now with the rules practically back to the way they used to be, this card gives players a distinct advantage and when combined with the right cards in the entire collection, leaves it with the opportunity to win turn 1.
Professor Oak (Base Set, Base Set 2) - Like everyone says, get a fresh hand and keep playing trainers including more oaks if needed. As long as you know how to use this card. You always have an advantage.
Gust of Wind (Base Set, Base Set 2) - Free jab at any Pokemon YOU want. Definitely not a fair card, however with the over-powerful cards that have been introduced in today's format, it may deserve a return.
Computer Search (Base Set, Base Set 2) - Lose 2 additional cards for any card in your deck. This card is just great because it can literally solve any problem in gameplay.
Slowking (Neo Genesis) - Nothing like a permanent way to screw up your opponent. It wasn't because it could stop any Trainer card all the time, instead it just made the opponent flip a coin and if tails the trainer goes on top of the deck. Meaning it locked up trainers and draw power. It was definitely the truth at Worlds 2002 when who ever got the Slowking out first, they won. It deserved the honor of being banned from the NG-on modified format in Wizards last year of Pokemon.
Energy Removal - This card is just dirty, sometimes it will just slow the opponent down, but often it will take away the one energy that makes the power attack of the opponent work, Unlike Super Energy Removal or any other counterpart it just removes one without any cost to play it. It can even take out Special Energy cards, and that is where it is wrong.
Cleffa (Neo Genesis) - This card sticks out in my head over the ages just because it was a true Baby Pokemon card (meaning attacking it required flipping a coin to just even hit it), secondly the card is great because it shuffled the hand into the deck and drew 7 cards. It was a great setup card. Of course it was the victim of being "Kroged" by Neo Discovery's Tyrogue, but it wasn't enough to scare people to not play it like crazy!
Rare Candy -Even after its most recent Errata, Rare Candy is still useful. It is the key to get Stage 2 out in Turn 2. Find me a deck with Stage 2 that does not make use of it.
Double Colorless Energy - I would say this lost the title reasonably when powerful attacks really did require large energy costs with little room for Colorless. But with cards like Zekrom, Reshiram, Mincinno and Zoroark now on the scene, this card has all new terror painted over it.

 

[meganium45]

1. Cleffa NG
2. Professor Oak (non-supporter)
3. Computer search
4. Celios Network
5. Holon Transceiver
6. Cyrus's Conspiracy
7. Sableye
8. Pidgeot FRLG
9. Clefable J

None of these will be reprinted.

Vince

 

[butlerforhire]

While there is little doubt Fossil Muk would be a very powerful card in our currrent current format. It was was never seen as a viable card back then, because Haymaker deck's were so promenent. Aside you could rely on Goop Gas Attack to block opponents pokémon powers back then. Today we have Dialga G LvX which is a borderline unfair card.

Muk was definitely viable, especially post-Neo, and still would be today.

 

[wobbufet]

Scoop Up
Prof. Oak
GoW
DCE
BTS
Garchomp C Lv. X
Luxray GL Lv. X
Gardevoir SW
Gardevoir Lv. X

Gallade was going to be in there, but Gardevoir X got jealous, and kicked him off.

 

[MonsterOfTheLake]

Before I get into a long schpeal about this, has the TCG Community at large ever determined what cards in the game counted as the "Power Nine", that is, nine cards of such unprecedented power that they will never be reprinted again?

Nope =P

9 cards that are so broken that they will never be reprinted? In no specific order:

1) Professor Oak

Professor Juniper is not a reprint. Since the introduction of Supporters, normal Trainers are no longer 'draw' cards, providing at most a single card draw without flips. A draw Trainer, let alone one that draws 7, will never be reprinted. This should be undisputed.

2) Super Energy Removal

They haven't even been able to reprint Energy Removal without adding a flip clause. Thus, there is no chance of this ever being reprinted.

3) Slowking NG

I obviously mean the Wizards version, and not the original Japanese one. A Pokemon that practically stops all T/S/S for the opponent is far too broken. Dark Vileplume/Vileplume UD were in effect for both players, and Gothielle will only work while active. Given that Vileplume/Gothielle don't even block T/S/S, and given Slowking's infamy of being one of the only two cards ever banned, there's no way it'll ever get reprinted.

4) Uxie

Far too strong a draw card.

5) Crobat G

I don't think PCL realized how strong placing a damage counter without attacking is when they made this. Before anyone says Kingdra, I'd like to remind everyone that it's a Stage 2. Although it's only truly broken when paired with Scoop Up/SSU/PokeTurn, a Basic being able to place a damage counter anywhere won't be printed after the whole Uxie donk/Sableye debacles.

6) Item Finder

Before anyone starts, Junk Arm is not a reprint of Item Finder, as Item Finder gets T/S/S, and Junk Arm doesn't.

I don't see 1-6 ever being reprinted. 7-9? COULD happen, but very unlikely, like Porii Sames winning a Worlds. Or Chuck NOT winning Worlds.

7) Computer Search

Again, a Trainer doing flipless draw/search is highly unlikely to be printed since the introduction of Professor Elm/Supporters. You have to wonder whether discarding 2 cards is a similar effect to flipping a coin? Given that I'd be more inclined to play CS than Victory Medal in ANY format, I'll have to say no, but I could actually see CS being reprinted in the future.

8) Lass

As a Supporter? Possibly. As a Trainer? VERY unlikely.

9) The Rocket's Trap

This card is almost as bad as Gengar SF in terms of being 'annoying' (The most annoying cards in Pokemon, future MonsterOfTheLake's Lake article? PERHAPS!). Both involve flipping a coin to do something REALLY annoying to your opponent. Given the most recent disruption card we got, Cyrus' Initiative, being a Supporter that can grab 2 cards max, a Trainer that can possibly grab 3 cards on a SINGLE flip is NOT going to be reprinted. It's definitely the weakest of the 9, but as likely as any to not be reprinted.

Honorary mentions

Rocket's Sneak Attack

Aside from having the hottest card art (including Misty's Tears), this card practically guaranteed ruining your opponent's hand if you played it the first turn. Cards like Cleffa NG, Sableye SF, Chatot MD and Cleffa HS/CL can help you recover from it, so it's not as disgustingly powerful as it used to be, but still extremely unlikely to be reprinted.

Gust of Wind

A stupidly broken card, which only misses the Power Nine by virtue of actually being reprinted. What the hell, PCL?

Pidgeot RG

Any card you want, with no side effects, EVERY SINGLE TURN. Very unlikely to be reprinted, but it could happen.

Energy Removal

Almost as broken as SER, and has only been reprinted with a coin flip so far. Given that GoW was reprinted, it's a possibility that our old friend ER will actually get to play in a Modified format for the first time.

Scoop Up

Like ER, this has only been reprinted with a coin flip clause. It's not strong enough to be reprinted as a Supporter (given Seeker and Mr. Briney), but too strong to be reprinted as a Trainer.

Chaos Gym

Not as broken as the other cards, but as likely as any to not be reprinted. Gambler has a better chance of being reprinted than this psychotic card. KADABRA has a better cha... ok maybe not.

Erika

It's a Trainer that draws 3. Sure, your opponent draws as well, but it's still too strong a draw source for a regular Trainer, and won't be reprinted.

Bill

Too much draw for a Trainer.

Imposter (sic) Oak's Revenge

Too disruptive for a regular Trainer.

Focus Band/Baby Rule

Neither will be reprinted.

Double Full Heal

Wait, what?

 

[Frost]

I hate to be "that guy" who asks a clueless question, but...

Can somebody explain to me what's so great about Lass? Is it because you can see the opponent's hand, have them shuffle their Trainer cards away, or both?

I mean, a lot of the other cards mentioned in this thread (Oak, Gust of Wind, Computer Search, Item Finder, Slowking) are inherently good and I remember how important they were to the TCG back in the day. Lass? Not so much.

 

[tomoyosfan1]

What made Lass so powerful was NG Cleffa. basically you'd play Lass to shuffle all your trainers and then Eeeeeeek! to get a brand new hand. beyond that, it'd be easy enough to play every trainer out of your hand on the first turn and then Lass, so your opponent doesn't even have a chance to play trainers before yoiu take all of them away.

 

[thepliskin5005]

I think reshiram and zekrom belong on there because they are 130 hp basics with great attacks.

 

[Pokeplayer]

Recycle
Gambler
Base Gastly :biggrin::lol::wink::tongue:

 

[Rikko145]

1. Luxray GL Lv.X
2. Gust of Wind
3. Lost World
4. Lugia ex
5. Claydol GE
6. Machamp SF
7. Energy Removal
8. Garchomp C Lv.X
9. Double Colorless Energy

That's my opinion for the top cards.

 

[espeon200]

What made Lass so powerful was NG Cleffa. basically you'd play Lass to shuffle all your trainers and then Eeeeeeek! to get a brand new hand. beyond that, it'd be easy enough to play every trainer out of your hand on the first turn and then Lass, so your opponent doesn't even have a chance to play trainers before yoiu take all of them away.

Also, you have to remember that this was a time when pokemon-based hand refresh (aside from NG Cleffa) was unheard of, and Trainer included what would eventually become supporters and even stadiums. You could play Lass, leave your opponent with a few energy in hand and then refresh yourself meaning you had total card advantage.

 

[Regis_Neo]

It all depends what format(s) we're talking about...I mean if we're talking about all time, pretty much anything old like the mentioned base set trainers pretty much encompass that.

But even then mechanics have a habit of being recycled, like into a Supporter (Juniper) and sometimes random Poke-Powers and such that mimic an old trainer. Or of course, there are the "nerfed" versions as well, such as SSU (which is not super at all compared to the original), ER2, etc etc.

 

[Bolt]

1. Cleffa NG
2. Professor Oak (non-supporter)
3. Computer search
4. Celios Network
5. Holon Transceiver
6. Cyrus's Conspiracy
7. Sableye
8. Pidgeot FRLG
9. Clefable J

None of these will be reprinted.

Vince

I like this list the most so far, I think.

some thoughts:

-A lot of people are mentioning Bill, but at a relatively early point in the game cards were introduced that had a better effect than "net gain of 1 card." There are so many other cards post-Fossil that have a more advantageous effect (that I would max out on), imo.

-I'm not sure that I'd include any supporter not named Oracle (maybe not even that?). The supporter drawback (which I am a fan of) hurts it too much for what it is - and if you throw era into consideration at all, it gets slightly worse (can't search out Pokemon-ex in a format defined by them). Not saying it's bad, but not sure it belongs up here.

-Similar case for Cyrus. It's extremely deck/era-specific. Castaway would probably go better in this spot.

-Sableye is spot on.


List is hard to make, because we've seen so many rule/gameplay/mechanic changes over the years.

 

[The Gorn]

How about Magcargo (Deoxys) with Smooth Over? It was beastly with Delcatty's Energy Draw.

 

[TheDancingPeanut]

Oracle is getting overlooked here because of the short time it was relevant, but that card--as a supporter--would be fabulous in almost any format. There's always a way to pick up the top two cards of your deck, so it's basically two free cards.

 

[Nick15]

It all depends what format(s) we're talking about...I mean if we're talking about all time, pretty much anything old like the mentioned base set trainers pretty much encompass that.

But even then mechanics have a habit of being recycled, like into a Supporter (Juniper) and sometimes random Poke-Powers and such that mimic an old trainer. Or of course, there are the "nerfed" versions as well, such as SSU (which is not super at all compared to the original), ER2, etc etc.

Yeah, we're mainly focusing on "of all time", if only because Modified has changed so many times that what's "Power Nine" worthy one year may not be the next, or vice versa... so we'd be arguing about this until the cows come home. Unlimited, on the other hand, has been basically the same since 1999, or at least the list of "Power Nine" worthy cards hasn't "rotated" like a list of "Modified Power Nine" has.

And as it has been mentioned above, just because certain specific mechanics of a card have been reprinted (like the "Discard hand, draw 7" part of Professor Oak in Professor Juniper), it doesn't mean that card itself has been reprinted wholesale, and thus does not affect a card's "Power Nine worthiness". Case in point, certain specific mechanics of Magic's Power Nine have been reprinted in a similar way--Time Walk & Time Warp, Time Twister & Time Spiral--but that doesn't mean the Power Nine card itself was reprinted wholesale.

We will never see certain cards, or a Pokémon's specific power/attack (let alone the Pokémon that power and/or attack was on) reprinted ever again... THAT'S what matters the most in determining a Power Nine card.

BTW, I'm thinking that maybe we could have two separate Power Nines? One for Trainer cards and one for Pokémon cards, for a total "Power Eighteen"? Naw, I think that's overdoing it a bit.

---------- Post added 05/13/2011 at 10:42 PM ----------

List is hard to make, because we've seen so many rule/gameplay/mechanic changes over the years.

What matters is that, no matter what kind of minor rule/gameplay/mechanic changes have been made over the years, cards on the list of "Pokémon TCG's Power Nine" would continue to dominate. If a card's power is good BUT only in a specific way or rule format, then it's NOT "Power Nine" worthy, QED.

For example, Professor Oak is still good TODAY, and no kind of rule change to the game--short of a deliberate errata (like with Bill, but that's just rude)--will make Professor Oak NOT good... THAT'S what makes Professor Oak worthy to be on the list of "Pokémon TCG's Power Nine".

There's a lot of cards that people hae suggested that are powerful, but only in a specific way. Those won't make the cut. On the other hand, there are cards (and I'm sure at least nine of them) which are powerful in EVERY way. They were powerful when they were released, powerful when Wizards tested the "Prop15 format", powerful when Nintendo took over and did the minor rules update with EX:RS, powerful if it found it's way into a Modified deck, powerful when Nintendo updates the game again in 2015 and sets limits on the number of cards a player can play in one turn (I'm just making that one up), powerful even if your opponent built a deck that is meant to counter that card... there is not a single situation where it's NOT powerful, and there is simply NO way around it, as these cards are about as Alpha-Dog-Top-Of-The-Food-Chain as a card can get. That's what matters, and I'm sure there are nine cards in the entire game that we can build a list out of.

....sorry if I've been a little too poetic about all this.

 

[Scizor]

Oracle has to be the most underrated card of all time. It is borderline Power Nine if you ask me and it is the best Supporter all time, with only maybe Rocket's Admin. and Celio's Network rivaling it. I just see people constantly forget about this card. It wasn't THAT short-lived, either. Oracle was insane in Entei/Magcargo before Wizards gave up the game and it was beyond levels of absurdity in Blaziken in 2004 and anything with Delcatty, for that matter. If Pidgeot and CPU Search are being mentioned as T10-20 cards there is absolutely no reason Oracle shouldn't be. When you break it down, there is no format that didn't have direct ways to abuse it with Power-draw or Trainer-draw. Oracle would have and would be a Top 5 card in any format all time. Fact.

That being said, I think Monster of the Lake's post was pretty right on. Gust of Wind is too powerful, though and I am disappointed to say the least that it is being reprinted. I thought there was a chance this game could go some sets without printing utterly stupid broken cards but I guess not. It's been some years since it has, unfortunately. Also, nobody has really mentioned it but Pokemon Nurse as a Trainer being printed in Japan's Black and White is also certainly close to broken. Bad ideas, IMO.

 

[Alazor]

I made up a few that were not mentioned...

Pokemon Tower (Wizards Promo) - Stops Item Finder, keeps energy in the discard
Lost Remover (Call of Legends) - gets special energy in the lost zone, if your opponent is only running special energy this will help
Super Energy Removal (Base Set)- gets more energy in the discard
Item Finder (Base Set) - gets these trainers back
Computer Search (Base Set) - like Oracle and Pokedrawer+
Professor Oak (Base Set)- just draw
Gust of Win(d) - just Gust
Expert Belt - makes the old ex pokemon look terrible
Lass (Base Set) - works well now with Uxie (Legends Awakened)

 

[XYZ_Sniper]

Cyrus Conspiracy - Most Broken Supporter ever
Imposter Oak's Revenge - Like Judge Today except you only discard a card to put the effect on the opponent
The Rocket's Trap - Flip a coin if heads pick 3 random cards from your opponents hand and shuffle into their deck.
I think this would be OK as a supporter
Bill - Too speedy
Energy Removal - Hopefully this card will never be released in its orginal form
Super Energy Removal - Same goes for this card
Professor Oak - Obviously this has been released a supporter but never again as a trainer
Pokemon Center - Garchomp C LvX anyone? This card IMO would be OK as a supporter.
Sloking NG - I think this card may be released as an errata. So Sloking must be active.

Cyrus did the same thing as Castaway