Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

POP Policy Change Regarding Foreign-Language Cards

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English isn't your first language? lol
But this is a good point. It caused no problems. I know this is only one case, and there are cases in which it would cause problems, but most cases will be like this.

Sure not, since french is my mothertongue. Anyway most the cards I play are in english,.







I have to deal with it if I wanna play Pokemon TCG, since the new cards are always in english or in japanese... Why do some americans can't make effort to play against other languages cards, are they realy so st...pid as people say in Europe XD ~.
I don't talk necessary about japanese cards, but also to other european languages like french or german that will be also illegal?

I play in Switzerland, and I don't understand nothing about german. But people from the german language side play german cards and don't need to carry cardex since it's also an official language. Do you think there are problems ? Sure not, players are intelligent enougth to explain the effets of the attacks in a german/french/english mixture language.

We shouldn't forget that most of players only care about fun and don't think about cheating or what. Pokémon is a funny game, but this law make this a little bit unfunny (most monney to spend for good cards, can't play in neighbor countries, etc...).
If some players abuse of anything like cheating to win and brokes the spririt of the game, they should be simply banned or punished by a way without have to penalize most of the players that are honest ones.
 
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Well I don't saw any problem playing against japanese cards. Yesterday at BR I played against a rogue deck with Ninjask.

Cards like Claydol and Uxie, I never had to ask the translation.

But some cards like Ninjask or Haspyqueen, the guy simply gived me an english card as ref. It didn't change nothing to me.

That is the best point made about this whole issue. If an opponent wants to see a translation or card I let them keep it with them until the match is over. At the Masters level there are very few cards that are unknown. Let's face it, the serious players (not me) make it their business to know what each card says and does. Unless it is a staple card (Uxie, Claydol, ect.) I have to read their card or translation. Having to read any card has never slowed a game down significantly in my experience.

Even if you run a 60 card JPN deck how many cards would actually have to be read by the opponent? Roseanne's BeBe's, Switch, Warp Point, Special Energy, Luxury Ball, Premier Ball, and all of the other Trainers and Stadiums that are well known do not need translations. If someone is asking for a translation of these types of cards THEY are stalling and the delay is not caused by the JPN deck.
 
It was less than a month ago that I was able to buy Japanese promo cards at K-Mart or Target. So, now that I have invested in my own country japanese cards from a local store, it is being told to me that I have wasted and thrown away money? I buy Japanese, because I can afford to get the cards for my family and I. I also buy Japanese for the ratio. I can't find anyone here that is willing to trade an Uxie or Dialga and I can't find it on e-bay for cheap either. I have invested $100s of dollars into japanese cards, so I can play and make my decks better. It also helps me with leaguers because I have english too and can help them build a deck without depriving myself of the card (because I have it in Japanese) I can honestly say I have a small ratio of english now because of this. I think POP needs to take a step back and realize this is hurting a lot of people. I am ok with them making the format all english, but give us until 2010 to do it so some of us can re-build our english collections
 
i have a japanese Uxie X that's gonna be useless now.. thanks so very much PUI. honestly, people are SUPPOSED to have translations there so their opponent can read it in the same amount of time it takes to read the actual card. If you have an actual english card next to you, you should be able to play with foreign language stuff. because, let's face it. If it takes you more time to read an english card that isn't sleeved than an English card that is, there's something wrong here.

I understand the argument that foreign languages disrupt the game, yet, again, you are SUPPOSED to have a translation ready when you play a card. Whenever i play my japanese cards, i immediately hand over my translation.
 
The stated problems in the press release are that:

a) Event staff not understanding the language a card is in “adds complexity to an already complex tournament setting.”

b) Due to an increase in Non-native cards “the pace of games has slowed due to translation issues, even with a Card Dex or local-language reference cards.”

That’s it. The ruling is stately aimed at increasing pace of play and reducing the burden of work on event staff.

There is NOTHING about
* brick and mortar stores having problems with lost sales
* folks using non-native cards to gain advantage.
* the “Not for sale outside of Japan” thing being violated.
* profits being lost due to non-native sales

While I think that there are some neat discussions about all of these latter, the fact is that all the arguments about them are inventions in folks minds to justify how they feel about the ruling. IMHO there are all sorts of people just making stuff up here. Folk who are mad rant about greed while some event staff folks have just flat out invented reasons that this was done that simply aren’t in accordance with the stated goal of the ruling.

The most interesting arguments to me here are the ones where folks have basic disagreement on whether or not non-native cards add undue complexity or slow things down.

No-Poke, let me turn your argument around. “I have no problem with players or staff who find JP cads disruptive. I’m happy for them. But if someone tells you that they don’t find JP cards disruptive don’t try and tell them that this isn’t the case.” Basically instead of saying that you find them disruptive you seem to be saying “You are wrong, and I’m right, don’t argue with me.” The fact is that both sides have some interesting things to say. I would much rather see intelligent discussion of this issue rather than some absolutist statements that seemed aimed at killing the conversation.
 
It's shame for those have invested in both English/Japanese cards. Now what? Do we continue to play? or sell? Yet to who? POP needs to put more cards in the boxes (ratio) compared to other languages. Having to be forced to buy English cards is a crying shame. It just show how money hungry corporations are these days.... No, it is not about speeding up the game. It's about too many people complaining. Shall we all have a bon fire to burn these cards that are no longer legal to play in tournaments? I know a great spot at the beach. Let's say Worlds 2009?
 
It was less than a month ago that I was able to buy Japanese promo cards at K-Mart or Target. So, now that I have invested in my own country japanese cards from a local store, it is being told to me that I have wasted and thrown away money? I buy Japanese, because I can afford to get the cards for my family and I. I also buy Japanese for the ratio. I can't find anyone here that is willing to trade an Uxie or Dialga and I can't find it on e-bay for cheap either. I have invested $100s of dollars into japanese cards, so I can play and make my decks better. It also helps me with leaguers because I have english too and can help them build a deck without depriving myself of the card (because I have it in Japanese) I can honestly say I have a small ratio of english now because of this. I think POP needs to take a step back and realize this is hurting a lot of people. I am ok with them making the format all english, but give us until 2010 to do it so some of us can re-build our english collections

Is it just me or is everyone missing the point that the change does not occur until the start of the next cycle after worlds when sets will be rotated out also?

Cheers
 
As counter examples, I think my r4 opponent at CA States who went on to T2, asked twice to see my English PL Zangoose. I had a nicely folded cardex printout showing my translation for my JPN Uxie at AZ/CA states; I had several opponents who looked at it more than once. Now put these counter examples in the context of a deck that is 100% JPN. :nonono: To do the math, instead of 2 stops in a match to read the card, you have 20 - not acceptable in a big event which is so fragile as to timing and where the stakes are so high.

You just said yourself that it happened with an English card as well as your Japanese card. So how is there a difference between the two?

With my new glasses, I can once again read my opponent's cards upside down, BTW, but not in Japanese.

This is the first halfway legitimate reason I've heard. However, can you read upside down as fast as right side up? I'd venture to say that it would actually take most people more time to read upside down than pick up the card and read it normally. Thanks for trying to give an actual reason though.

Is all JPN deck legal? Of course. Can it operate in a big tournament without slowing several of its matches or generating a misplay by someone who is trying to keep proper pace?

I have never, as a player or judge, had a problem at a big tournament with a player using Japanese cards with proper translations.

Can it happen? Maybe. But no more than it can happen with English cards.



I thought it was disruptive when I experienced it as a judge last year. Others ridiculed me for having that opinion, saying, "the disruption, if any, is permissible because it's allowed in the rules." That difference-of-opinion with some of my PTO's, fellow judges and professors is one of the reasons I took a year off from judging this season. I wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with my superiors and peers.

I also see a problem when judges also play. Judges and players will many times view things differently. It happens in many types of competitive arenas. Pokemon is no different. Judges need to be able to "stand back" and view things from a different perspective, and not always be viewing things from the players' perspective. It's nice that some judges also play, but they need to separate the two.

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Ditto, I don't think I'll ever convince you (like I wasn't able to convince others last year), that an all-JPN deck disrupted the match I witnessed and judged. Perhaps a part of the disruption was caused because I was doing active judging.

Anyway, I think moderation is the key for premier events. Like Kim (bulbasnore) stated, premier events can be "fragile" when it comes to timing. Any distraction or disruption can have a big impact. Use your Japanese cards -- but use them in moderation. Some have refused to be moderate, so this rule was created to stop them, IMO.

Steve, complete this sentence:

"Japanese cards have been a disruption to my events because ________."

You keep saying they are, but have never given me an example of how they have been. I would love for you to convince me, I'm asking you to, but you won't give me a clear reason. You just keep saying, "because they are."

Ditto, here is your answer:

Lawman also has given you his experience. You simply refuse to listen.

Any player who claims "right" is rules lawyering. Just because something is allowed does not mean it should be abused. Concerning to me is that if someone insists on playing an particular copy of a card instead of its English equivilant, I will suspect that there is something "special" about that card, in the same way I will suspect something is "special" about the red die if a player insists on using it instead of the orange one. Why does the player insist on using one die instead of another if both are fair and impartial? To get out of that suspicion, you'd better have a better reason than "because I think it looks cool."

Ultimately, this is the question:

Ditto, if yours are the games that are always going to time and holding up the next round, you're going to get a penalty for event disruption due to your excessive use of Japanese cards.

Ditto, you're setting yourself up for this:

Ditto, is it worth the penalty when the judge offered you a way out?

I'll have to go back and see where Lawman gave his experience, I must have missed it.

I say that you, as a judge, are rules lawyering (and without any grounds) by refusing to let a player play with a Japanese card when they have proper translations and are not disrupting the event. Since you have no grounds for your ruling, I have to do nothing but have the right to do it to be OK.

Only 1 of my matches went to time at the States that I got 3rd at, and that was from a mirror match (where no translations were ever read) and both of us were nearly out of cards in our decks as well as resources. It was a good game.

As I've said, I have never needed the out that Kim has theoretically offered, and would prefer to just use my own cards.

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___________________
Sure not, since french is my mothertongue. Anyway most the cards I play are in english,.







I have to deal with it if I wanna play Pokemon TCG, since the new cards are always in english or in japanese... Why do some americans can't make effort to play against other languages cards, are they realy so st...pid as people say in Europe XD ~.
I don't talk necessary about japanese cards, but also to other european languages like french or german that will be also illegal?

I play in Switzerland, and I don't understand nothing about german. But people from the german language side play german cards and don't need to carry cardex since it's also an official language. Do you think there are problems ? Sure not, players are intelligent enougth to explain the effets of the attacks in a german/french/english mixture language.

We shouldn't forget that most of players only care about fun and don't think about cheating or what. Pokémon is a funny game, but this law make this a little bit unfunny (most monney to spend for good cards, can't play in neighbor countries, etc...).
If some players abuse of anything like cheating to win and brokes the spririt of the game, they should be simply banned or punished by a way without have to penalize most of the players that are honest ones.

QFT!

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Is it just me or is everyone missing the point that the change does not occur until the start of the next cycle after worlds when sets will be rotated out also?

Cheers

To be fair, no one knows that any sets will be rotated out. I have a feeling that the suspected people that pushed this new rule through, will continue to rotate sets, but it would be a shame if we got out of sync with Japan again since they usually don't rotate sets so often.

Still, speculation aside, what am I supposed to do with all the Japanese Platinum that I have? That set will almost definitely not be rotated out.
 
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Okay Ditto, here goes. But, I'll bet no matter how I describe the disruption, you'll discount it somehow.

It was a seniors match. One player was brand new, the other was a seasoned vet. The new player was about 11 years old, the vet was about 14. About 3 minutes into the match, I walked by. The vet was using the 56-card JPN deck (4 non-JPN cards). He had about 5 cards in play that were Japanese, but there were no visible translations in play. I advised him he needed to do so. No problem -- he did so. However, with each new card he played, he asked his newbie opponent if he wanted to see the translation. If his opponent said "no," he wouldn't pull the card out of his binder. I cautioned him that his opponent's response didn't matter -- he still needed to show the translation. About half-way through the match, there were about 15-20 additional translation cards cluttering the play area, making it difficult to determine which cards were in play and which were translations. I had him stack the translation cards. Luckily, the cards were sleeved different, but when the cards where face up, it was hard to tell the difference. Additionally, he was using Japanese basic energy cards without translation references. Technically, I could've penalized him for that, but that would've been ridiculous. Anyway, that one match monopolized my attention more than it should've. Perhaps it was partially my fault due to active judging (which the HJ told us to do at this Regionals).

Would the vet have won the match anyway? Most certainly. Was the match disruptive to the players? They'd probably say it was minimal. Was the match disruptive to the judges? It was to me. In fact, as I was judging the match, the 14-year-old's mentor, a judge in another age division, was slightly distracted and curiously observed how I was judging the match, probably ready to "pounce" on me for getting too actively involved in the match.

Shoot holes in my story as you wish -- I don't care. I posted this experience last year and defended my position at that time. I won't do it again. But, it's nice to see that other PTOs/HJs have experienced similiar events, and have acted to reduce the disruption (ie, requiring singles to be replaced with the translation cards).

If players would've heard the complaints from some judges/PTOs about excessive use of "all-JPN" decks, and toned down their use, maybe this rule would've never had to materialize.

As for Euro players, I can't speak for them. As Lia (RainbowGym) pointed out, it's different over there. But for the USA, I think excessive use of JPN cards is not a good thing -- at premier events.
 
The stated problems in the press release are that:

a) Event staff not understanding the language a card is in “adds complexity to an already complex tournament setting.”

b) Due to an increase in Non-native cards “the pace of games has slowed due to translation issues, even with a Card Dex or local-language reference cards.”

That’s it. The ruling is stately aimed at increasing pace of play and reducing the burden of work on event staff.

My fix
a) Event staff not able to understand a reference card should not be event staff.
There is nothing complex on picking up a reference card and read it.
Perhaps for Worlds there should be only judges which native language isn't English, they seem to not have that problem and are used to work with reference cards or even without them.

b) Many players play this game without even having a single card in their local language.
Serious, players using Japanese cards most times have a reference card, but what about those people like me playing in Germany/France/Italy while I cannot read their local language or even speak it.
Did this ever slowed down my games? NEVER.
Or even much better, an Italian player using a Japanese card and having an Italian reference.
Could my kids or me read them, NO, did they slow down the tournament? NO WAY.

What is serious complex about this game is people who seem to find a lot of things suspected.
People who think cheating is to be expected, or perhaps an advantage MIGHT be created.
We lost the use of nice sleeves due to this suspicious behaviour and now we loose much more due to what? People not being flexible enough?

I fully understand people who want to "show off" with a full reverse or Japanese deck.
Why not, it's something natural this need to feel different.
 
Okay Ditto, here goes. But, I'll bet no matter how I describe the disruption, you'll discount it somehow.

It was a seniors match. One player was brand new, the other was a seasoned vet. The new player was about 11 years old, the vet was about 14. About 3 minutes into the match, I walked by. The vet was using the 56-card JPN deck (4 non-JPN cards). He had about 5 cards in play that were Japanese, but there were no visible translations in play. I advised him he needed to do so. No problem -- he did so. However, with each new card he played, he asked his newbie opponent if he wanted to see the translation. If his opponent said "no," he wouldn't pull the card out of his binder. I cautioned him that his opponent's response didn't matter -- he still needed to show the translation. About half-way through the match, there were about 15-20 additional translation cards cluttering the play area, making it difficult to determine which cards were in play and which were translations. I had him stack the translation cards. Luckily, the cards were sleeved different, but when the cards where face up, it was hard to tell the difference. Additionally, he was using Japanese basic energy cards without translation references. Technically, I could've penalized him for that, but that would've been ridiculous. Anyway, that one match monopolized my attention more than it should've. Perhaps it was partially my fault due to active judging (which the HJ told us to do at this Regionals).

Would the vet have won the match anyway? Most certainly. Was the match disruptive to the players? They'd probably say it was minimal. Was the match disruptive to the judges? It was to me. In fact, as I was judging the match, the 14-year-old's mentor, a judge in another age division, was slightly distracted and curiously observed how I was judging the match, probably ready to "pounce" on me for getting too actively involved in the match.

Shoot holes in my story as you wish -- I don't care. I posted this experience last year and defended my position at that time. I won't do it again. But, it's nice to see that other PTOs/HJs have experienced similiar events, and have acted to reduce the disruption (ie, requiring singles to be replaced with the translation cards).

If players would've heard the complaints from some judges/PTOs about excessive use of "all-JPN" decks, and toned down their use, maybe this rule would've never had to materialize.

As for Euro players, I can't speak for them. As Lia (RainbowGym) pointed out, it's different over there. But for the USA, I think excessive use of JPN cards is not a good thing -- at premier events.

Thank you for explaining your point. It helps to see specific reasons for why people feel the way they do.

I'll try and be brief in my response:

The troubles caused to you were due to the player not following the rules, not the Japanese card's fault. If the player would have had the translations out when he was supposed to then this match would have consumed no more of your time than any other match. The problem was with the player, not the cards he was using.
 
Is it just me or is everyone missing the point that the change does not occur until the start of the next cycle after worlds when sets will be rotated out also?

Cheers

I know it does not start until sept of 09, but I have 100s of Japanese cards, because I enjoy playing with them as well as I can get what I need for my budget. I have a whole family that plays. Now I have to replace all of our decks with English cards, that will take longer than Sept 1 with only being able to buy so much because of money problem. All I was saying was can't it be postponed one more year. At this time I can re-build my english collection, due to the fact I have given out so many cards to Juniors and Seniors so they can build decks for cities, state and Regionals. So yes I get the point, but my point is I already have full collections of the sets that are coming out from now until Aug of 09 in Japanese, because I had the belief that we I could use them for battleroads fall.

Oh and Ditto, you are right it is the players fault, I support your view all the way. I have seen events to which the player that is using Japanese cards actually shows their opponent their english translation. There opponent made it a point to close their eyes and not look and then ask a judge to come over and explain what a card does. The kid was being very unsportsmanship like. The one playing Japanese did everything he was suppose to do. The opponent was in the wrong, so as anyone can see, it is not the japanese cards it is the players...Both sides of the fence
 
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Thank you for explaining your point. It helps to see specific reasons for why people feel the way they do.

I'll try and be brief in my response:

The troubles caused to you were due to the player not following the rules, not the Japanese card's fault. If the player would have had the translations out when he was supposed to then this match would have consumed no more of your time than any other match. The problem was with the player, not the cards he was using.
Yes and no. There's still the issue of cluttering the play area.

And, I haven't mentioned that in some situations, mostly within the Juniors and some Seniors, excessive use of Japanese cards "CAN" have the appearance of providing an advantage. For Masters, it "might" be an advantage when a seasoned vet is playing a newbie. In a game like Pokemon where "chance" is high, that "slight" advantage could be the difference. But this is just my own opinion. Most players using all-JPN decks are probably going to win most games on their own merits.
 
Yes and no. There's still the issue of cluttering the play area.

And, I haven't mentioned that in some situations, mostly within the Juniors and some Seniors, excessive use of Japanese cards "CAN" have the appearance of providing an advantage. For Masters, it "might" be an advantage when a seasoned vet is playing a newbie. In a game like Pokemon where "chance" is high, that "slight" advantage could be the difference. But this is just my own opinion. Most players using all-JPN decks are probably going to win most games on their own merits.


Everything you've said is hypothetical, and in actual practice, has shown to be not true. Even if it were true, what "advantage" is there to be gained?

Honestly not trying to be mean but:

"The advantage gained by playing a Japanese card over an English card is ________."

I respect that you have your own opinion (even if I think it has no merit), but as a judge you need to keep your opinion out of your rulings and stick to just the facts.
 
Everything you've said is hypothetical, and in actual practice, has shown to be not true. Even if it were true, what "advantage" is there to be gained?

Honestly not trying to be mean but:

"The advantage gained by playing a Japanese card over an English card is ________."

I respect that you have your own opinion (even if I think it has no merit), but as a judge you need to keep your opinion out of your rulings and stick to just the facts.
What ever happened to "It is the opinion of this court..."? :tongue:

Yeah, the advantage argument is weak, so I stated it as "my own opinion." It was, and still is, a "perception" I have.

Disruption is the key argument, and the only one valid enough to warrant this change, IMO.
 
I accept that some greedy manager boss guys obviously dont care about the game at all, and that loosing a few players doesnt matter for them as long as there are enough people who take everything without a fight.
What really makes me sick is the way that some players try to defend this decision.

No matter how "bad" or imooral it may be to buy japanese cards (it isnt but lets asume it is), it was allowed and accepted so you cant blame a single person for doing so.

How would you feel if the government would forbid cars from tomorrow on withouth offering any replacement, and would tell you "well you know cars are bad for the enviroment, so you shouldnt have had one anyway, and its your own fault ". And how would you feel if someone without a licence would keep on telling you its your fault and to stop whining ?

~~~~~

And now just take a look at my situation. I have a pool that consists out of cards in many languages, I have german cards, english, japanese and even spanish. With this change about 60% of my pool will be gone as well as over 100$ invested in future sets. I'm planing to study next year and this will eat up a lot of my money. I will loose more than half of my cards, cards will get much more expensive, I wont be able to use cards that I win at tournaments anymore, I cant play in other countrys anymore.

So basically this decision forces me out of the game. I love this game and I'd really want to play on, but PUI wont let me. I simply cant afford it. And now I want to hear from someone why its my fault and not PUIs that I have to quit something I really love and enjoy. Go ahead :)
 
I accept that some greedy manager boss guys obviously dont care about the game at all, and that loosing a few players doesnt matter for them as long as there are enough people who take everything without a fight.

Really? I've disagreed with my fair share of decisions, but I've never been left with the impression that anyone at POP doesn't care about the game.
 
Having dealt with some of the folks higher up on the PUI food chain than Dave and the gang, I can almost guarantee that this decision did was not one that they would have made and was pushed on them from those in charge. They do not look or really care about organized play.

The sales bosses I am sure want their market to be protected and "pure". I am sure that the purchase of japanese cards from the primary and secondary market are a small part of the overall sales of cards, but to the sales folks....small is enough to threaten their jobs.

Do I like the decisio..not at all. Is it going to change...not at all

But if they had honestly wanted our opinions about the change, they would have asked for it.

Those of you who are significantly impacted by the decision and want to quit and take your marbles home...the only ones who will notice you are gone will be you and your closest friends.

Adapt or die

This was the post I was refering to. I dont blame dave or whomever if this decision is just forced on them^^
 
vanderbilt: I wasn't saying that those that say they do not find JP cards disruptive are wrong.

I was trying to highlight that what we do or do not find disruptive is a personal thing.

personally I would not "enjoy" playing against an all JP deck in a tournament. I find it harder when all I have to go on is a picture. I doubt I'm alone.

I can read english cards upside down (the psychic reverses are a pain though) I can read the European language cards too even though I can't speak the languages. I can't make any sense of JP cards. I like to watch my opponent's plays and not spend time thumbing through a translation folder or card-dex.

For some there will be no impact on pace of play, but just like my hayfever example this is not universally the case.
 
Now something about "abuse" of foreign language cards and the idea people have they "disrupt" the pace of games.

If there is really abuse (which I don't believe) you are taking a big risk by using foreign language cards.
The question is: Who might have advantage? the user of foreign language cards or the opponent?

---

Delaying the game because foreing language cards are used?
Don't make me laugh, what are you talking about?
I even dare to state:
In case it's causing delay it's not in Juniors but most likely in Masters.

Example
Little Kids in my country don't speak/learn/read English (starting with it at age 11 and school english is not enough for this game) But we only have English (foreign for us) cards to use.
We go to Germany (nearby) they have German cards but little kids are not able to read them untill they are about 8-9 years.

My kid can't read it's own cards but also not his opponent's cards and the other way around.
Did this ever caused significant delay? NO never ever.
For them those cards could even be Japanese ones.

And this applies to kids living in Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium and the list goes on......
Actually players from those countries ALWAYS have to play with cards they official CANNOT read.
LOL there isn't even a reference card available for them.

And now Japanese cards used on a tournament with a (for many people) local language (english) reference card should cause delays?
Don't make me laugh. Or should I feel sorry for all those people being so stupid they cannot do what many average European kid can.

Delays are not caused by using foreign language cards with reference cards ( I hate that card ex btw it's not as good as a real card)
Delays are caused because people don't know what certain cards do, it's doesn't matter in which language they are, you still should explain them. That's the only delay I have seen.
Which should not cause to much delay and is equal to translating a card for a player in one of the above mentioned countries.
I have done this for over 7 years and all judges in those countries have to do this because of not having local language cards. And we are even able to play best of 3 in 45 minutes, so what is the problem?

Finally, someone who actually is from europe confirming what I said in an earlier post. This new rule has NOTHING to do with jpn cards complicating the game.
 
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