Prereleases - a suggested change.

[P_A]

Thank you again Mike for your comment. It's very compelling, and might reflect the situation elsewhere as well, so don't sell yourself short. I just have issues with 2 statements in it though:

" PTOs all over the US are fine with their numbers at Prereleases." Are you sure about that? Did you poll them? Are you sure they wouldn't appreciate larger numbers? Hard to say definitively after a set with huge attendance, but I would imagine they'd still appreciate any reason which adds to their attendance - within reason.

"To top it all off, I'm not hearing complaints from my players regarding scenario #2" Are you sure you would? If someone has an issue with prereleases, do you think you'd even see them, let alone hear a complaint from them? As a former PTO, I HAVE heard some complaints. Many people when you tell them to send their complaints to TPCi never end up doing so, since they feel that decisions made by TPCi are rarely changed even if a number of players disagree with them. I suppose it's not TPCi's fault that they don't get informed, but that's what this thread is all about - trying to find a happy middle ground - not to affect rampant change like when we went from scenario 1 to 2.

 

[PokePop]

Yeppers, I can pretty much say that the Prerelease structure right now is damn near perfect. This event is supposed to be a NON competitive event. Adding anything to it for winning would turn it into a competitive event.

This is a very important point.
We get a lot of new players showing up for their first ever Pokemon TCG event for Prereleases.
Quite often, for the young ones, we have our judges help them with deck construction and even playing the game during the rounds.
We can do this exactly because it is a non-competitive event. There are no prizes on the line. If there was even a single pack on the line as prizes, then we would not be able to help out beginning players and would just have to watch them struggle, offering no more help than making sure that mandatory game actions are done, such as drawing a card. Unfortunately, placing energy cards, evolving, and even attacking are NOT mandatory game actions and so we would not even be able to say "don't forget to attach an energy card".

All you need to do is have judges at the tables during the deck construction stage to prevent people from slipping cards into their deck that they didn't pull and fill out deck lists so there can be deck checks when needed.

Oh, is that all you need?
So, that would be one judge for, what, every 6 players?
Or, alternately, you'd have to have every player record their pack pulls on a sheet. Yay, fun!
AND, then, to be safe, you would then have players switch off those packs and sheets to confirm that they are not just dumping in their own good cards to replace bad pulls.
That's a fun thing, explaining to a 8 year old that they have to give up that EX that they pulled to another player and take the bad pulls some other player just happened to get.
So, yeah, that's "all you need to do".

 

[Team Cook]

Thank you again Mike for your comment. It's very compelling, and might reflect the situation elsewhere as well, so don't sell yourself short. I just have issues with 2 statements in it though:

" PTOs all over the US are fine with their numbers at Prereleases." Are you sure about that? Did you poll them? Are you sure they wouldn't appreciate larger numbers? Hard to say definitively after a set with huge attendance, but I would imagine they'd still appreciate any reason which adds to their attendance - within reason.

Well, we would all appreciate larger numbers but at the same time have a relaxed non competitive event. No, I did not poll them but I keep an eye on the PTO boards and I'm not seeing any complaining regarding the structure of Prereleases (adding or not adding prize support). I also keep an eye on the Gym and I'm seeing nothing major regarding this issue.

If players really stopped and thought about it for a moment, they would realize there shouldn't be prizes at a Prerelease. It's a pure luck event, for the most part you're playing people that aren't competitive in the first place, and you're not playing all the rounds (most PTOs cut them short).

What players really need to understand is that TPCi has made it very clear, they want Prereleases to be non competitive. The fact that scenario #2 has been in place for so long shows that it works.

 

[P_A]

Seriously Mike, why would you even think anyone who has a complaint about the prerelease structure would ever EVER complain about it on TPCi's own board? Until they are allowed to have an opinion contrary to TPCi's - either publicly or on a private board would you ever see anything like that. I'm sure that won't be any time soon, as you should know.

 

[Charranitar]

This is a very important point.
We get a lot of new players showing up for their first ever Pokemon TCG event for Prereleases.
Quite often, for the young ones, we have our judges help them with deck construction and even playing the game during the rounds.
We can do this exactly because it is a non-competitive event. There are no prizes on the line. If there was even a single pack on the line as prizes, then we would not be able to help out beginning players and would just have to watch them struggle, offering no more help than making sure that mandatory game actions are done, such as drawing a card. Unfortunately, placing energy cards, evolving, and even attacking are NOT mandatory game actions and so we would not even be able to say "don't forget to attach an energy card".



Oh, is that all you need?
So, that would be one judge for, what, every 6 players?
Or, alternately, you'd have to have every player record their pack pulls on a sheet. Yay, fun!
AND, then, to be safe, you would then have players switch off those packs and sheets to confirm that they are not just dumping in their own good cards to replace bad pulls.
That's a fun thing, explaining to a 8 year old that they have to give up that EX that they pulled to another player and take the bad pulls some other player just happened to get.
So, yeah, that's "all you need to do".

Well what you're suggesting is entirely idiotic. I'm not suggesting any of the stupid stuff you're suggesting like having a player give up the cards they pulled.

You can have a judge survey more than 6 people, it's not that difficult. Start of pre-release, hand out deck lists. Have a judge for every 8-10 people. Have a rule of no objects on the table other than the packs, deck list, and a pen. Have a rule that players must keep their hands above the table (just like they need to be doing during an actual game). The players fill out their non-energy portion of their deck list, and get it signed off by a judge. Then they can go get the energy cards for their deck, sleeve it up, and turn in their deck list.

The judge doesn't have to be watching anything too intently. They just need to have a general surveillance of the area to make sure there is no funny business going on. By limiting the stuff players can have on the table and having a hands above the table rule, it won't be too hard to spot anything funny going on.

Additionally, with 2 boxes worth of prize support up for grabs for the top 4 finishers, the players are going to want those prizes, so they will be self policing themselves. If someone tries to cheat, another player will probably call it to the attention of the judge.

 

[SD PokeMom]

Seriously Mike, why would you even think anyone who has a complaint about the prerelease structure would ever EVER complain about it on TPCi's own board? Until they are allowed to have an opinion contrary to TPCi's - either publicly or on a private board would you ever see anything like that. I'm sure that won't be any time soon, as you should know.

quite obviously, it's been a LONG time since you've been on TPCI's own boards, as PTOs and others have been posting differing opinions from the 'party line' there as a matter of course. things have changed...which you are not privy to, no longer being a PTO and all...

 

[SD PokeMom]

Well what you're suggesting is entirely idiotic. I'm not suggesting any of the stupid stuff you're suggesting like having a player give up the cards they pulled.

You can have a judge survey more than 6 people, it's not that difficult. Start of pre-release, hand out deck lists. Have a judge for every 8-10 people. Have a rule of no objects on the table other than the packs, deck list, and a pen. Have a rule that players must keep their hands above the table (just like they need to be doing during an actual game). The players fill out their non-energy portion of their deck list, and get it signed off by a judge. Then they can go get the energy cards for their deck, sleeve it up, and turn in their deck list.

The judge doesn't have to be watching anything too intently. They just need to have a general surveillance of the area to make sure there is no funny business going on. By limiting the stuff players can have on the table and having a hands above the table rule, it won't be too hard to spot anything funny going on.

Additionally, with 2 boxes worth of prize support up for grabs for the top 4 finishers, the players are going to want those prizes, so they will be self policing themselves. If someone tries to cheat, another player will probably call it to the attention of the judge.

obviously, you never played prereleases when a box was at stake.

we HAD to do pack registration/deck swaps at LEAST on the second weekend, if not the second DAY...you'd be surprised how many people actually WOULD try to sneak in cards obtained from the prior week when there was a box to be had.

and it was NO FUN trying to explain to a crying junior and their parents just why they did not get to keep that nice shiny card they pulled from their packs but instead had to bundle it up and leave it on the table for some other player.

and not just the younger players: you really think any of you would be happy about leaving a mewtwo EX or shiny rayquaza behind in a deck swap?

oh and lets not forget the masters complaining how 'unfair' it was that juniors and seniors ALSO were competing for a box when their groups were smaller...

 

[Charranitar]

That is why I'm not suggesting that deck swaps be part of the process. Just because that's the way some have done it in the past doesn't mean it's the only way that such a tournament can be done.

If a player is trying to cheat at a tournament, they should be disqualified from the tournament and then receive a suspension from organized play.

Edit: And I don't see how pack registration would do anything. If that's how you are trying to keep tabs on the tournament, what is there to stop someone from taking the EX they pulled from a pack and replacing it with a junk rare, screwing over the honest players anyhow. Pack registration and swap just seems like a horrible idea on multiple levels.

 

[Team Cook]

Seriously Mike, why would you even think anyone who has a complaint about the prerelease structure would ever EVER complain about it on TPCi's own board? Until they are allowed to have an opinion contrary to TPCi's - either publicly or on a private board would you ever see anything like that. I'm sure that won't be any time soon, as you should know.

I disagree 100% but this has nothing to do with your topic.

 

[SMP88]

Well what you're suggesting is entirely idiotic. I'm not suggesting any of the stupid stuff you're suggesting like having a player give up the cards they pulled.

You can have a judge survey more than 6 people, it's not that difficult. Start of pre-release, hand out deck lists. Have a judge for every 8-10 people. Have a rule of no objects on the table other than the packs, deck list, and a pen. Have a rule that players must keep their hands above the table (just like they need to be doing during an actual game). The players fill out their non-energy portion of their deck list, and get it signed off by a judge. Then they can go get the energy cards for their deck, sleeve it up, and turn in their deck list.

The judge doesn't have to be watching anything too intently. They just need to have a general surveillance of the area to make sure there is no funny business going on. By limiting the stuff players can have on the table and having a hands above the table rule, it won't be too hard to spot anything funny going on.

Additionally, with 2 boxes worth of prize support up for grabs for the top 4 finishers, the players are going to want those prizes, so they will be self policing themselves. If someone tries to cheat, another player will probably call it to the attention of the judge.

I was at an 80 person prerelease yesterday. You're saying we should have had 8-10 judges? That's about what there is at states.

Also, with multiple packs up for prizes there's going to be cheating. Why couldn't I keep an EX in my pocket, write down on the deck list that I got an EX and then put the EX in my deck before the first round begins. There's no way judges are going to be able to check everyone's decks before the first round, the prerelease would take up most of the day in that case.

 

[Prof Clay]

My prerelease numbers would actually go down if the event becomes more competitive. I have many players who only come to these events for the fun light environment and they would quit coming if anything changed

 

[Hammertime]

Magic has prizes for their versions of Pre-Releases and I'm sure that other games do too. Writing down all the cards opened may seem like a hassle, but when you consider that every other tournament players are in require a deck list, this doesn't seem so outlandish does it?

Complaints that some cards are too good/auto wins are invalid. I played in a 10 pack ND sealed tournament and everyone I played had at least 1 EX(and my final opponent had 2)while I had none, and yet I won. Complaining about the luck involved with what cards you opened is laughable when you consider that it is just another form of chance that is built into Polemon.

The arguement that Pre-Releases are the 1st tournament for some players is invalid, as the same thing can be said about any tournament. If they are so unfamiliar with the rules, I would argue that they don't need to be playing in tournaments yet. Maybe the Theme Deck Challenge would be a better choice as it comes with a playmat that reminds them of things they can do.

Finally, with the logic that prizes lead to cheating, am I to assume that Ness is the greatest cheater of all time since he has won the tournament with the most prizes twice?

TL;DR: Why fight aganist a change that results in more prizes for players at no cost to them?

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

That is why I'm not suggesting that deck swaps be part of the process. Just because that's the way some have done it in the past doesn't mean it's the only way that such a tournament can be done.

If a player is trying to cheat at a tournament, they should be disqualified from the tournament and then receive a suspension from organized play.

Edit: And I don't see how pack registration would do anything. If that's how you are trying to keep tabs on the tournament, what is there to stop someone from taking the EX they pulled from a pack and replacing it with a junk rare, screwing over the honest players anyhow. Pack registration and swap just seems like a horrible idea on multiple levels.

Deck swaps are the easiest way to reduce the cheating. You mentioned earlier other would point out cheating, not as often as youd believe. Most deck registration ive done has players seated alphabetically, so what stops a family of 4-5 from registering and cheating. You honestly gonna tell me the the kids are gonna rat out dad when they know they have the cards to take 2-3 of those top 4 spots(or all the top spots as happened in the first dragons exalted draft i was at. Dad and both kids took 1,2,3. You need to take off the rose colored glasses and face reality. The better the prizes the more rampant the cheating.

 

[P_A]

Sorry for the repeat of info in this post. I had a glich in my server at the time I posted the first one, so I posted it again, just to be sure. I'll edit out pertinent sections.

Whether or not the players realize TPCi's will on a matter is really irrelevant, any more than if TPCi realizes what players want (be it contrary to their opinion or not). The question is not 'can TPCi allow this,' or 'will they allow this,' since that is not our decision to make. The real question is "can we modify the current prerelease structure to gain players who are competitive in nature, along with those who don't go to prereleases due to buying boxes over the net, without becoming too competitive, or encouraging cheating?" ShadowGuard's post above shows that a whole country's prereleases were structured in this manner over a period of time, without over-competitiveness, and without noticeable cheating.

If TPCi honestly and thoroughly reviews the prerelease structure due to this thread, and makes any decision - for or against this proposal, then many people will be satisfied. That's what this is all about. Now is the time to discuss this - right after a prerelease series with lots of time to make a decision before the following prerelease event.

If they do decide to test it out, are you gonna be one of those PTO's that I mentioned about in the opening post who are resistant to change?

Are you certain that would be the case Prof Clay, or is that your opinion? Are you sure those same players wouldn't appreciate a chance at another pack - given the chance? No one says this will make an event super competitive - or for that matter that it wouldn't. From what I see here, it seems only PTO's on this thread seem to think so.

One final comment on this 'Mom. Perhaps you didn't realize this during your attempt to belittle me, but I didn't get bounced out of the PTO ranks. And my opinions are my own. They might not always be right, but they ARE mine. Until PTO's are not only welcomed to show publicly their personal opinions but feel free to do so, then I'll hold my own counsel on that one.

 

[PokePop]

Sorry for the repeat of info in this post. I had a glich in my server at the time I posted the first one, so I posted it again, just to be sure. I'll edit out pertinent sections.

Whether or not the players realize TPCi's will on a matter is really irrelevant, any more than if TPCi realizes what players want (be it contrary to their opinion or not). The question is not 'can TPCi allow this,' or 'will they allow this,' since that is not our decision to make. The real question is "can we modify the current prerelease structure to gain players who are competitive in nature, along with those who don't go to prereleases due to buying boxes over the net, without becoming too competitive, or encouraging cheating?" ShadowGuard's post above shows that a whole country's prereleases were structured in this manner over a period of time, without over-competitiveness, and without noticeable cheating.

If TPCi honestly and thoroughly reviews the prerelease structure due to this thread, and makes any decision - for or against this proposal, then many people will be satisfied. That's what this is all about. Now is the time to discuss this - right after a prerelease series with lots of time to make a decision before the following prerelease event.

If they do decide to test it out, are you gonna be one of those PTO's that I mentioned about in the opening post who are resistant to change?

Are you certain that would be the case Prof Clay, or is that your opinion? Are you sure those same players wouldn't appreciate a chance at another pack - given the chance? No one says this will make an event super competitive - or for that matter that it wouldn't. From what I see here, it seems only PTO's on this thread seem to think so.

You don't address my point about being able to help out new players/kids when nothing is on the line.
While experienced players don't care about that (doesn't affect them), PTOs are VERY sensitive to that point.

Everything is not always, all times, all about the competitive players.

 

[Team Cook]

If they do decide to test it out, are you gonna be one of those PTO's that I mentioned about in the opening post who are resistant to change?

If they make changes and I don't agree, I would voice my concerns the proper way through private emails or phone calls and not here for the world to see. You're an educated man so I'm sure you could appreciate that.

I've said everything I wanted to say on this thread, time for me to move on.

 

[Charranitar]

You don't address my point about being able to help out new players/kids when nothing is on the line.
While experienced players don't care about that (doesn't affect them), PTOs are VERY sensitive to that point.

Everything is not always, all times, all about the competitive players.

Tournaments should be for competition. League should be for teaching new players how to teach the game.

 

[PokePop]

Tournaments should be for competition. League should be for teaching new players how to teach the game.

Thank you for illustrating my point.
There is no such thing a "just a little competition."

It's either competitive, or it's not.
One pack, one box. Same difference.

 

[Kayle]

I don't know why people would want prizes at prereleases. If you want to spend the money on getting new cards, there are much more practical and cost-effective ways of doing it than prereleases, even if you could "guarantee" a box at each one by cheating and being a jerk.

I don't really like prereleases as a general rule, but that's more because I never pull anything good, ever. Playing in limited is quite funny, and I love the idea that a new player can come in, learn about the game, and get a bunch of cards all in the same event.

Why are competitive players even up in a bunch over prereleases in the first place? They're entirely outside of the competitive arena. And they should be handled as such.

 

[SD PokeMom]

P_A: i never said you were 'bounced out' of the PTO ranks. i said it's been a while since you've been one, and things have changed since then. and i was unaware that information contained in an NDA was no longer NDA once one no longer was a PTO...