Prereleases - a suggested change.

[KazamBolt]

Undefeated gets an extra pack? Hmmm, well, that's not totally out of the question I suppose. Just as long as we don't keep adding to our excuses to add a pack here and there for this reason, and that reason.

Edit: Do you really think that adding as many as 2 packs for prizes would make that much difference and cause rampant cheaters? I would suggest otherwise. I don't think it would be enough.

Here's a con that adds to the first paragraph referenced. My TO likes to run 3 round prereleases, no more no less. It's enough to have some fun, see the new cards, then trade and leave around 2. I've liked this schedule, but with 30+ people in the Masters age group, there are at least 4-6 undefeated players after 3 rounds. Instead of adding 1-2 packs of prizes, then you're at 6-12. That's a big difference, and only for 1 age group.

Also, there are only a few packs around as prizes at Battle Roads. I don't really notice cheating, at least not in my area, but I'd assume there would be the same amount as BRs has.

 

[PokePop]

Here's a con that adds to the first paragraph referenced. My TO likes to run 3 round prereleases, no more no less. It's enough to have some fun, see the new cards, then trade and leave around 2. I've liked this schedule, but with 30+ people in the Masters age group, there are at least 4-6 undefeated players after 3 rounds. Instead of adding 1-2 packs of prizes, then you're at 6-12. That's a big difference, and only for 1 age group.

Also, there are only a few packs around as prizes at Battle Roads. I don't really notice cheating, at least not in my area, but I'd assume there would be the same amount as BRs has.

Thanks, I meant to mention this as well.
I also only run three rounds.
If you were to go to any prizes on the line, even one pack, then you would have to run the full 4 or 5 rounds.
My players are very happy to be done after three rounds.
Then they can either leave, trade, or play in the draft.
Playing 2 more rounds so one player can get one pack does not seem like a good trade off to me.

 

[UnpokemonMom]

My prerelease numbers would actually go down if the event becomes more competitive. I have many players who only come to these events for the fun light environment and they would quit coming if anything changed

As a newcomer, I would like to mention that I enjoyed being able to "compete" without the win/loss actually mean anything. I just learned how to play a few weeks ago, and am trying to get the mechanics down. It's a little overwhelming at first, like when I forgot to attach a 4th energy to my active pokemon and instead attached it to a benched one. I value these prereleases as opportunities to to practice in a "real" tournament setting.

---------- Post added 08/06/2012 at 02:14 PM ----------

Tournaments should be for competition. League should be for teaching new players how to teach the game.

Just wanted to point out that there is also a middle ground - players who have learned the basics of the game, but not actually participated in any tournaments. It's very nerve-wracking for a newcomer to amongst experienced players; at the prerelease, I felt more relaxed because we were all essentially on the same level (in terms of cards). :thumb:

 

[P_A]

You don't address my point about being able to help out new players/kids when nothing is on the line.
While experienced players don't care about that (doesn't affect them), PTOs are VERY sensitive to that point.

Everything is not always, all times, all about the competitive players.

Come come, are you seriously gonna say that I personally have to address every point you make? Do you do the same? Lame. Ok, let me ask you this: does every PTO follow every new player at each prerelease, making a deck and helping them with every move during their rounds? How many new players would it take for the PTO to be burnt out and not able to complete his/her job properly? Wanna know the answer? ONE! That's not your job. It's not your head judge's job. You do it because you think it's good business to do so or you have volunteers to do so. I'm not arguing whether it's right to do so or not, because I've done it myself. What do you think of situations where like at this set of prereleases someone gets 30 new players? OR ... Do you think that new players got less attention and help at events that ShadowGuard posted about?

No one disputes that other people besides competitive players deserve a say in anything. But you know what? Occasionally they should have a say as well. However this isn't the only reason for this thread. Reading it again will show that there is a section of people who buy boxes on the net that we could entice to prereleases. This might be a way to do that.

Thank you for illustrating my point.
There is no such thing a "just a little competition."

It's either competitive, or it's not.
One pack, one box. Same difference.

Yes, there is such a thing, Mike. It's all in what you perceive, and what your circumstances are. If you perceive that something is not worth competing for, it no longer becomes a competition - it's called "fun".

I don't know why people would want prizes at prereleases. If you want to spend the money on getting new cards, there are much more practical and cost-effective ways of doing it than prereleases, even if you could "guarantee" a box at each one by cheating and being a jerk.

I don't really like prereleases as a general rule, but that's more because I never pull anything good, ever. Playing in limited is quite funny, and I love the idea that a new player can come in, learn about the game, and get a bunch of cards all in the same event.

Why are competitive players even up in a bunch over prereleases in the first place? They're entirely outside of the competitive arena. And they should be handled as such.

That's part of the point of this thread. If those who are willing to buy boxes online are enticed to come to prereleases instead through means such as this proposal, they'd find both a fun and friendly atmosphere with only light emphasis on winning, which may produce larger events, and player bases. I think you're getting it wrong. The real competitive players couldn't care less about prereleases. One or two packs aren't worth their time.

P_A: i never said you were 'bounced out' of the PTO ranks. i said it's been a while since you've been one, and things have changed since then. and i was unaware that information contained in an NDA was no longer NDA once one no longer was a PTO...

Belittling is belittling, 'Mom. I was pointing out that there were reasons why I no longer am a PTO. If you aren't privy to those reasons, then you should have no reason to discuss that in this context, and have no grounds to belittle me for not being a current PTO. And don't dare try to tell me or anyone else that something contained in the PTO NDA was revealed in this thread, since even you should know it's not true.

Let's get back to the real discussion here - not your views about me personally. :wink: I just brought the thread up, I didn't make the suggestion in the first place.

 

[Cyrus]

I've played in a lot of pre-releases; I've judged a lot of pre-releases.

There are two problems with pre-releases the way that they're done. On one hand, there's little respect for these events being "tournaments" at all, which is due in part to no prizes for winning (it's also due to how bad the format is for play, but that's another topic). On the other hand, if they were ever given prizes, then the logistics of the modern day pre-release would be a nightmare. For that reason, it's not that the 'Mom and 'Pop sympathizers don't care about event legitimacy. It's just that logistical nightmares for relatively little gain for PTOs and judges doesn'tt seem too fun.

Competitive players: you have to accept that in order to get what you want, you'll need some home-grown solutions. Maybe individuals could organize post-release drafts (key phrase being draft...not sealed, 'cause sealed is a joke format in Pokemon), and give a half box or box to the winner. Charge entry fees as is appropriate.

Does that sound too expensive? Want a solution that doesn't require playing a tournament outside of the pre-release? Try this:

-Get a group of 6 to 12 friends together
-Everyone promises to place their extra two packs in a "prize pool" (12-24 packs)
-Divvy up the packs however you want. I'd recommend that first place ought to get 50%, but that's just me

I used to think that some prize incentive was necessary, but with some pre-releases hitting as many as 100+ people, it's just not practical. Plus, I'm also beginning to accept how much of a joke sealed is, especially in Dragons Exalted. Why play a joke format competitively? For those reasons, players ought to solve the issue themselves.

 

[PokePop]

Cyrus: It doesn't even need to be home grown.
After every prerelease, I offer a draft, supplies permitting.
I usually get about 2/3's of the PR players staying for the "after-draft" and for that, there are prizes on the line.
I usually push the prizes out pretty far, so about half of the players get one pack or more in prizes.

I think this might be a "solution" to this "problem".
Keep the PR easy going and hold a draft afterwards for players that want a more competitive tournament.
As you note, Sealed is pure luck. Drafting is where a skilled player can shine.

P_A: I guess I should have let it go, since you totally miss my point.

 

[P_A]

Here's a con that adds to the first paragraph referenced. My TO likes to run 3 round prereleases, no more no less. It's enough to have some fun, see the new cards, then trade and leave around 2. I've liked this schedule, but with 30+ people in the Masters age group, there are at least 4-6 undefeated players after 3 rounds. Instead of adding 1-2 packs of prizes, then you're at 6-12. That's a big difference, and only for 1 age group.

Also, there are only a few packs around as prizes at Battle Roads. I don't really notice cheating, at least not in my area, but I'd assume there would be the same amount as BRs has.

Ok, how does your PTO determine who won your events currently? Let me guess, he/she looks at the TOM software that tells who won, right? Then they report that to TPCi. So what changes if they continue to hold 3 round events? Nothing. TOM still will determine who won - on resistance or whatever other determining factor it uses. Nothing has to change. BR's are now going to be without a top cut. Why does this have to warrant the full rounds or a top cut? The simple answer is that it doesn't.

 

[King Piplup]

Ok, how does your PTO determine who won your events currently? Let me guess, he/she looks at the TOM software that tells who won, right? Then they report that to TPCi. So what changes if they continue to hold 3 round events? Nothing. TOM still will determine who won - on resistance or whatever other determining factor it uses. Nothing has to change. BR's are now going to be without a top cut. Why does this have to warrant the full rounds or a top cut? The simple answer is that it doesn't.

I'm in the same area as him as far as PTO goes. There is no "winner" per se. No standings are posted. Also, AFAIK, there is no "Winner" reported to TPCI, just final Swiss records. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[SD PokeMom]

Ok, how does your PTO determine who won your events currently? Let me guess, he/she looks at the TOM software that tells who won, right? Then they report that to TPCi. So what changes if they continue to hold 3 round events? Nothing. TOM still will determine who won - on resistance or whatever other determining factor it uses. Nothing has to change. BR's are now going to be without a top cut. Why does this have to warrant the full rounds or a top cut? The simple answer is that it doesn't.

we've all heard the outcry when top cuts are limited and some players bubble out due to resistance etc...so imagine the cries of outrage when one undefeated is considered more 'worthy' of those extra pack(s) at the end of a shortened tourney!

lovely choice the PTO has under that scenario: either pay for more prizing out of pocket, or have a number of unhappy players. sounds like a lot of hassle for very little reward, imho...

 

[P_A]

King Piplup, all the matches are reported to TPCi - regardless of how many rounds are reported. If the TOM software discloses what the standings at the end of the round are to TPCi, I have no idea. However they have access to the results of all the rounds. I only supposed that out of interest the PTO gives a nod to the winner as sort of 'bragging rights.' There still is a winner regardless of whether it is reported to either TPCi or the players.

 

[King Piplup]

King Piplup, all the matches are reported to TPCi - regardless of how many rounds are reported. If the TOM software discloses what the standings at the end of the round are to TPCi, I have no idea. However they have access to the results of all the rounds. I only supposed that out of interest the PTO gives a nod to the winner as sort of 'bragging rights.' There still is a winner regardless of whether it is reported to either TPCi or the players.

I don't dispute there being a winner (and nowhere did I say all matches are not reported to TPCi), but I am simply stating that in KazamBolt's case, he (and I) live in an area where the PTO doesn't acknowledge an actual "winner" (a good thing IMO)

 

[P_A]

we've all heard the outcry when top cuts are limited and some players bubble out due to resistance etc...so imagine the cries of outrage when one undefeated is considered more 'worthy' of those extra pack(s) at the end of a shortened tourney!

lovely choice the PTO has under that scenario: either pay for more prizing out of pocket, or have a number of unhappy players. sounds like a lot of hassle for very little reward, imho...

Ah, yes, that is a concern. Thank you for pointing that out. I suppose it's all how you make the proposal to the players. If you point out in your opening announcements that there's the possibility that more than one person legitimately can claim to win that type of event BUT that you will be following the direction provided by the TOM software produced by TPCi, then they have no reason to complain too loudly - especially when they'd look pretty petty for at the most 2 packs.

---------- Post added 08/06/2012 at 06:28 PM ----------

I don't dispute there being a winner (and nowhere did I say all matches are not reported to TPCi), but I am simply stating that in KazamBolt's case, he (and I) live in an area where the PTO doesn't acknowledge an actual "winner" (a good thing IMO)

Ah, ok, great. To be honest, I didn't say there was anything wrong with your post, I was just acknowledging it, and giving you some facts that you may not have been aware of, that's all.

 

[Kayle]

That's part of the point of this thread. If those who are willing to buy boxes online are enticed to come to prereleases instead through means such as this proposal, they'd find both a fun and friendly atmosphere with only light emphasis on winning, which may produce larger events, and player bases. I think you're getting it wrong. The real competitive players couldn't care less about prereleases. One or two packs aren't worth their time.

I would ask you why that situation requires change.

All I could say I guess, is to restate the general argument of the thread. There's a very fine balance between too much prize support (and thus, an unfriendly amount of competition), and enough prize support to attract players who don't need the cards.

If I were to really suggest a solution, I would suggest making some change - either to the format, the distribution method, or even to the way packs are put together - that gives the players a better opportunity to pull the cards they need, thus making the prerelease worthwhile for competitive participants without making prizes the sole reason they're playing.

 

[Jaeger]

I've also gone 3-0 at every prerelease I've attended this. There is absolutely no way that I deserve to get an extra pack as a "prize" for going 3-0 at a prerelease. What did I accomplish? I beat 2 new players and 1 decent player with cards that I received through complete luck. Big deal.

Aside from the fact that this would incentivize cheaters, prerelease takes such a low amount of skill. At least draft tournaments take a decent amount of skill.

I would LOVE to see drafts again!

 

[P_A]

....If I were to really suggest a solution, I would suggest making some change - either to the format, the distribution method, or even to the way packs are put together - that gives the players a better opportunity to pull the cards they need, thus making the prerelease worthwhile for competitive participants without making prizes the sole reason they're playing.

I don't have this as some pet project where I feel that things MUST change for any reason, nor just for the sake of change itself. Discussions like this go on all the time, all over the globe, over many different things - whether people think they are broken or not. For example, the Honda Civic would never have been re-engineered so many times over the years if they felt that there was no need to change what seemed to be working for the moment. Granted there have been disasterous outcomes in other cases - case in point Coke. That doesn't mean we should never try to improve things, including prereleases. Even if only some people feel there is room for improvement, then there is.

So what change in format are you suggesting? Distribution method? That one I'm not sure I see. I can see how a change to packs themselves could make it worthwhile to competitive players, but I'm not sure that is the focus of this discussion. As I said before, it really is about how we can improve it for all players/PTO's/TPCi so that not only mildly competitive players benefit, but we also entice more players who buy boxes on the net, and normally don't go to prereleases - without adding to the budget for TPCi.

 

[Bleak]

I'm going to go ahead and flat out say that I've read NOTHING in this thread aside from the original post.

I'm pretty much always for more prize support... but I don't think I am for pre-releases. My reasoning is actually really simple - with our sets containing these unbelievably powerful EX cards at such a high rarity, it's almost guaranteed that the person who pulls *any* EX is going to go at least X-1 (I realize this isn't the case all the time, but I've never witnessed otherwise after numerous prereleases and drafts).

Adding prizes to the picture just rewards people for pulling well more than anything... it's almost like rubbing it in to the players who pulled nothing competitive from their packs. "Oh the best card you got was an RH Ambipom? Cool, we want you to lose all day and watch us reward the players with their overpowered basic(s). Better luck next time!"

 

[Jaeger]

Bleak: More reason for drafts

 

[P_A]

Bleak, that's also the very first objection that I can't overcome completely. You're right. That format is incredibly based on the luck of the draw. However I don't think I've ever been to a prerelease where only one person has drawn an ex - yet not all of them win. I have been (in the past) to events where I (or someone I know) have drawn diddly bupkiss yet still place high in the standings. I guess all I can say is that in the end the prize would be no more than 2 packs - would that be enough to cause a problem if you didn't win? I don't think that in that instance a heartfelt handshake and "Better luck next time," in other words having some empathy would be such a bad thing. Good post.

 

[pokeMATHter]

Like many of the other PTOs here, I really like the "no extra prizes" format.

 

[Otaku]

Now that's just rude, Secrets. :lol: You're bursting my worldview. I guess I have more faith in people - perhaps a bit too much.

Ok, then those of you that feel cheating would return, do you have any suggestions?

Yes. Quite frankly I am disappointed in how this thread went. There have been some excellent suggestions lost in back and forth arguing.

I've got to ask: don't we have to watch out for cheating even now? Even a single pack is an extra four bucks, and plenty of people will cheat at a children's card game to get that. Think of all the people who eat food in a store, who go back up for "seconds" when it isn't a buffet or that kind of salad bar, claim they are old enough for a senior discount and/or have their kids lie about their ages when there is a discount for those age brackets.

The best suggestion I've heard, here or elsewhere are... well what a lot already do. The Pre-Release is a quickie 3 round event, then there is a side event afterwards for competitive players.