Prereleases - a suggested change.

[Kayle]

So what change in format are you suggesting? Distribution method? That one I'm not sure I see. I can see how a change to packs themselves could make it worthwhile to competitive players, but I'm not sure that is the focus of this discussion. As I said before, it really is about how we can improve it for all players/PTO's/TPCi so that not only mildly competitive players benefit, but we also entice more players who buy boxes on the net, and normally don't go to prereleases - without adding to the budget for TPCi.

That segment of my post was very vague, sorry. I'm just thinking about the combined arguments that
- Going to prereleases doesn't get you much in the way of chase/competitive cards
- People who pull good cards at the prerelease are sure to do well, skewing results randomly

Changing the pull ratios, or the rarity of strong cards, would improve this. Changing the way cards are distributed at the prerelease - skewing probabilities so that chase cards are more likely than if you just bought the equivalent number of packs - would also improve this. But I have no idea how viable these ideas are from a business perspective, nor how it would address concerns from PTOs.

 

[Bleak]

Bleak: More reason for drafts

Love this. I've come to vastly prefer drafts over the regular sealed pre-release format. I definitely understand why it's not our "go-to" for pre-releases, though. Small errors are really easy to come across with players and would probably be more headache than it's worth. Drafts are best in really small (8ish) groups.

Bleak, that's also the very first objection that I can't overcome completely. You're right. That format is incredibly based on the luck of the draw. However I don't think I've ever been to a prerelease where only one person has drawn an ex - yet not all of them win. I have been (in the past) to events where I (or someone I know) have drawn diddly bupkiss yet still place high in the standings. I guess all I can say is that in the end the prize would be no more than 2 packs - would that be enough to cause a problem if you didn't win? I don't think that in that instance a heartfelt handshake and "Better luck next time," in other words having some empathy would be such a bad thing. Good post.

Yeah man, you're spot on. There's pretty much never an instance where only one person pulls an EX, and only one person can win (in each division, of course) - that's why I made a point of saying "X-1" instead of "X-0".

For me personally? I wouldn't sweat over two packs at all. You're definitely right about that. I can't speak for everyone though, and I imagine that my feelings over two packs is not that of the entire Pokemon community's... all it takes is one bad apple, I suppose.

Also, just for clarification's sake; the pre-releases you mention having been to in the past (where you pull nothing) - were they any of the last three sets? I feel like the "overgrown EXs win" problem was non-existant until the BW-on EXs. Not trying to pick at you, just wanting to satiate my own curiosity. FWIW, at the most recent prerelease I judged, we had a pokemom go 5-1 with no EXs, so I'm not discounting your point at all.

 

[pokemonforever]

Changing the pull ratios, or the rarity of strong cards, would improve this. Changing the way cards are distributed at the prerelease - skewing probabilities so that chase cards are more likely than if you just bought the equivalent number of packs - would also improve this. But I have no idea how viable these ideas are from a business perspective, nor how it would address concerns from PTOs.

First off, "strong cards" are completely relative in the Pokemon TCG. Avoid playing into the hype.

But if you DO play into the hype, skewing card ratios for pre-releases is a bad idea. This idea reminds me of those "sampling packs" that we have now. Common and uncommon cards showcase what the set will contain. Reverse this concept and predict its consequences. Trainers and EX cards become rampant, making those once lucky pulls a bit less rewarding. Competitive players now actively seeking the more accessible cards they believe may be useful in the coming future. Ultra rare cards avaliable publically up to two weeks prior to official release, causing a flux in the secondary market. I'm sure there are plenty more. But if you're after the ultra rare cards, tins, booster drafts, and asking mom or dad already accomplish this quite successfully.

Personally, I don't think you can persuade players who buy boxes on the net by offering packs. Thus any notion of additional packs for a pre-release event is a moot point.

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If you want to add "prizes" to attract competitive players, or even financially frugal players, it has to be fair and avaliable for all participants. It has to be worth their money. It has to be exclusive, something special you can only get at the pre-release. It has to be useful, so that I want to get it because I can showcase it.

Pre-release sleeves was one of my reasons for attending pre-releases (shame no more Diamond & Pearl-like sleeves). All of a sudden, I didn't have to worry about protecting my rare cards because gracious TPCi has prepared me to play the game. I have a unique, useful item that I could only obtain by participating in the event. The deckbox was a nifty idea as well. But I need way more sleeves than I do deckboxes. I can replace sleeves easier than I can deckboxes. I can probably protect more cards using 60 sleeves than I can with 1 deckbox.

Provide exclusive pre-release promos. Now I think I recall reading a thread or post a long time ago explaining why this cannot be done. But if all participants received a promo only obtainable from being at a pre-release, it may encourage people to actually attend. Or make the promo more viable, like Dragons Exalted's Altaria with alternative artwork (although I would have preferred Gabite #89 or Garchomp #90 or Devolution Spray). Bring back the Winners promos, with one to each division? But with a catch: don't award them to winners of event rounds. Instead reward them to those players whose behavior at the event best reflects the Spirit of the Game, making them feel like a winner. Or provide sets of holo energy promos to attendants. I think I got something like that in my last player rewards.

And while you're at it, boost the Play! Point for pre-releases. Pre-releases are the only premier events where you get Play! Points, but you have to pay to attend. Encourage the attendance of pre-releases by providing a little player reward.

tl;dr. Any changes to pre-releases cannot be performance-based, but rather encourage a more fun, respectful, and enjoyable learning enviroment.

 

[P_A]

Bleak: Actually to be honest, I think I attended one of those events either 2 or 3 sets ago, after I had retired. I made a point of coming back to hang out with some old friends and have a good time. IIRC I believe it was the set with Tornadus in it, since that was part of my deck. Does that make sense? That's all I remember. I know I came in second since the PTO told me in an email after the event. However the actual set I attended where I got bupkiss was a few years back at another PTO's event. I think I placed 2nd or 3rd. I also noticed some of my friends have done the same at some of the events I ran.

Pokemonforever, those are some excellent suggestions. It would be nice if some of them could be implemented without too much added to TPCi's budget. I don't necessarily agree with your last sentence, but I do agree with some of the sentiment of it. I agree that the sentiment would have an impact and be an improvement, and in it's basic concept - what this thread is about is finding ways to improve prereleases.

 

[bullados]

Actually, what I'd like to see is players getting the opportunity to build their decks with all 8 packs, rather than just 6 of them. You'd be surprised at how many players are willing to stick around for the entire tournament even if there's no prizes involved. I ran 5-pack drafts with minimal prizes at best (maybe a pack or 2) at every Prerelease I ran, and nobody dropped from those ever. And with 8 packs, you actually have a half decent chance of pulling something decent and running with it.

I'd like to see the Sleeves come back. Even when they weren't usable for deck sleeving purposes, they were still useful for loose card protection. The current deckboxes break too easily to be useful, and how many deckboxes does one player really need?

As far as the unique promos, I really like what they've done for the last few sets. Having BW promos that are alt-art versions of cards in the set. They're unique, obtainable only at Prereleases, and pretty cool to have around.

 

[P_A]

I also ran some side events and gave all 8 packs. Yeah, the decks were much more fleshed out it seemed.

Yeah, I think a lot of people liked the sleeves - especially when they were of good quality.

 

[NoPoke]

We do the 6 pack sealed and then follow up with 8 pack mutant using the same cards. mutant is either 40 or 30 card format. Still working out the wrinkles on banning EXes/ or just letting the Exes win and the rest of the players having a decent match. So far there hasn't been a lot of local outcry against the players who get the set "bombs" and have an easy time at pre-releases.

We also use 25 minute best of three with the super fast 30 card format.

But none of that is about finding out who is best.. its much more about maximising play opportunity and keeping the day fresh.

===

sleeves: I loved the sleeves, even the poorer quality ones. I think I was in a minority though judging by the complaints that the free sleeves received.

 

[homeofmew]

First of all prize support for pre releases is done in MTG, it hasn't been done in pokemon since T A/M or EX Dragon I think, not sure.

I remember filling out the "what you drew lists" and "what you drafted lists". Similar to what you do in MTG competitive Sealed Draft. If there was competitive draft the rules would have to be pretty tight. People would try to put other cards in their deck they might have gotten from other events. Of course the 1st PR event no one would be able to do this, but assuming more than 1 PR was done.

Here's ways to Fix this.
1. You only can't have any cards on you going into the event from the expansion(s) being drafted on your personal body. (As in you stash them in your car xD)
2. you can't leave the event area, unless you leave your deck with a judge.
3. You have to Fill out the "what you drew/drafted lists"
4. If you even think pull anything in question, the player may call a judge to ok that it was actually pulled.

I have seen this done at MTG Sealed Drafts and it works.

As per #4 All it means if you happen to pull something Like 2 EXs or whatever, or there might be a question about it show the judge you pulled it.
This has never been an issue when I have done this, especially in Double Rares (Holo+ Non holo) in MTG.

Honestly Drafts are a lot of what you pull + some deck building skills. However it is a level playing field since there is a limited amounts of cards you can play and since some of it IS luck.

But yeah I like the current system - filling out the "what you pulled" lists always gave me a headache. Then you had to go back and put which of those cards you are actually playing with. SO NOT FUN.

I think Pokemon should change up the item you get.
Some of the newer players would love the sleeves I think.
So I think it would be cool if it was staggered, like 1 PR Deck Box 1 PR Sleeves, and go back and forth.

 

[ShadowCard]

First of all prize support for pre releases is done in MTG, it hasn't been done in pokemon since T A/M or EX Dragon I think, not sure.

It went on longer. My friend got a T A/M booster box so it stopped some point after Hidden Legends. I want to say at least to Emerald.

 

[homeofmew]

yeah I don't exactly remember what Pre Rlease it stopped at. But I thought it was T/AM or Hidden Legends looking back on it. It wasn't Ex Dragon because I forgot about HL. And I'm Pretty Sure it didn't go to EX Emerald.

 

[yoshi1001]

The last set with a Box prize for the winner was FRLG (Worlds 2004 Prereleases may have been an exception).

 

[LucarioLvlX]

I have been running Prereleases for seven years and I believe that they are just about right. We had our biggest attendance ever this past weekend and everybody had a ton of fun. Not one player asked me who the winner was, because they were all winners! Especially the player who got 3 EXs in his 8 packs. The total absence of competition is just one of the factors that make Prereleases so attractive for those of us who attend them. Be seeing you.

 

[muk316]

I'm not sure there needs to be an option 3 for Pre-releases. It seems that the bottom line is: If there is anything up for grabs, it will turn competitive.

In that case, if you want competitive, play in Battle Roads, Nationals, etc. What is wrong with having a fun format where you get what you pay for (and more!). As a returning player to the game, I enjoyed popping in to play a few games and meet some new people, without worrying if my modified deck was up to par or not. I don't have intentions of playing competitively - it requires a time commitment I can't make - but I had fun, despite my crappy pulls at the Dragons Pre-release.

 

[Otaku]

I'm not sure there needs to be an option 3 for Pre-releases. It seems that the bottom line is: If there is anything up for grabs, it will turn competitive.

In that case, if you want competitive, play in Battle Roads, Nationals, etc. What is wrong with having a fun format where you get what you pay for (and more!). As a returning player to the game, I enjoyed popping in to play a few games and meet some new people, without worrying if my modified deck was up to par or not. I don't have intentions of playing competitively - it requires a time commitment I can't make - but I had fun, despite my crappy pulls at the Dragons Pre-release.

Thanks for emphasizing two points:

1) Many players (myself included) enjoy the casual atmosphere.

2) Suitability of sets for Limited Events.

With respect to the first point, I invite all who haven't yet to try viewing Pre-Releases as a learning experience, a training exercise... which is honestly what I think they are intended to be.

• It gives a lot of cards a chance to shine and avoid being overlooked... and not just "filler" cards either. It can help legitimately good cards get noticed because they are just that much better in Limited.
• It provides an avenue for newer players to learn how to participate in a tournament where everyone is also building decks and filling out deck lists at the last minute, and with a less overwhelming card pool!
• Experienced players are encouraged to help less experienced, and that trains those players how to support the game in roles other than "player". It does this without penalizing them; if there were any additional prizes on the line, someone would complain when a top player helped one newbie but not all. It would becomes self-sacrifice to help a newer player use their cards well... since I've done that and basically "beat" by myself. :lol:

As for my second point, this is one of the parts of this thread really worth addressing. I've taken issue with Pokemon rarity schemes in the past, though generally speaking Pokemon has one of the better rarity schemes for TCGs. First Pokemon Prime and now Pokemon EX give me pause. This is an issue I wouldn't mind exploring, but may not be suitable to go into detail about here.



I also have been disappointed by what seem to be a lot of "filler" cards in sets, which neither are useful for competitive play nor are especially interesting and fun for casual play; stuff where it seems like a computer program could be spitting out the designs via a template. Thing is, if the "filler" cards make for a good limited event, that's a horse of a different color. Now it's a matter of me purchasing a product and simply not being able to easily take full advantage of all its uses. Still a bit annoying, but unless there is a way to get regular Limited events going on like a weekly basis, not much that can be done about it.

 

[homeofmew]

You still can have a competitive and non competitive atmosphere. I know sounds weird but in MTG there's something called "Gold Tier Tournaments". Basically it's a Limited Sealed tournament they have once and a while to get rid of extra product. You pay a certain amount to get in but they give out tons of product as prizes. I know this idea in pokemon may not work - but I am sure Pokemon has extra boosters they have hard time selling somewhere.

For example, this would be the same thing when pokemon hands you an EPO/ BW booster for league play at nationals.

How it would work:
1. The Sets being drafted are sets not of the current 1-2 sets
2. The entire you can't have cards on you thing may have to be enforced.
+ the what you drafted sheets.

I mean I ended up with a few packs and I didn't get 1st.
Yes this is the same tournament I got a warning not drawing a card before playing a manna. But it was still really fun. Also it counted as a point for your Player rewards but not for ELO (i think).

 

[P_A]

I'm not sure there needs to be an option 3 for Pre-releases. It seems that the bottom line is: If there is anything up for grabs, it will turn competitive.

In that case, if you want competitive, play in Battle Roads, Nationals, etc. What is wrong with having a fun format where you get what you pay for (and more!). As a returning player to the game, I enjoyed popping in to play a few games and meet some new people, without worrying if my modified deck was up to par or not. I don't have intentions of playing competitively - it requires a time commitment I can't make - but I had fun, despite my crappy pulls at the Dragons Pre-release.

Do you feel that no one at your event tried to win their games? I suggest that there was SOME competition there, though it might not be prevalent. Do you think that if there WAS an option 3 for prereleases that it would cut into your "fun"? What you get out of an event shouldn't hinge upon how well you did, but occasionally everyone likes to win a game or two - if not all their games. A small token for those who actually do win a mildly competitive (or non competitive) event shouldn't automatically elevate the status of the event to "highly competitive," nor should it change your idea of fun, or your experience of fun.

 

[muk316]

Of course everyone was trying to win their games, but we all had the same opportunity/cardpool. Sure I saw a deck or two that only packed an EX and a deck that only had Bouffalant/Sigilyph/Emolga/Stunfisk (the best of the set), but neither went 3-0. There was some "competition" there. But for the most part - it was a friendly mentality - people showing others their pulls and their entire decks! No way you'd see this if a box was on the line.

I guess the thing for me is that I didn't feel I needed to compete. No nerves the night before or morning of, no pressure to build the best 40 card deck ever, no guilt of losing or making play errors...just a stress-free environment.

If there was a box on the line - I can't say I'd have a stress-free day, but that's just the way I'm built and I'm sure others are as well.

 

[P_A]

Of course everyone was trying to win their games, but we all had the same opportunity/cardpool. Sure I saw a deck or two that only packed an EX and a deck that only had Bouffalant/Sigilyph/Emolga/Stunfisk (the best of the set), but neither went 3-0. There was some "competition" there. But for the most part - it was a friendly mentality - people showing others their pulls and their entire decks! No way you'd see this if a box was on the line.

I guess the thing for me is that I didn't feel I needed to compete. No nerves the night before or morning of, no pressure to build the best 40 card deck ever, no guilt of losing or making play errors...just a stress-free environment.

If there was a box on the line - I can't say I'd have a stress-free day, but that's just the way I'm built and I'm sure others are as well.

No doubt. Even I'd agree that a full box on the line would create too much stress .... or maybe too enticing a prize for those tempted to cheat (of course not being psychic/psychologist/psychiatrist, I can't say for sure it would or wouldn't be enough with any semblance of certainty). I'm sure however if you'd read most of my comments earlier you'd realize that option 3 is not advocating a box - not by any means. Do you think that the possibility that someone (either you or someone else) having a chance of winning an extra pack or two would ruin your "fun"? What I'm trying to determine is if, in your opinion, the (at most) 2 extra packs to yourself ... or to someone else would ruin your experience of the event. Now that you made that comment, do you think that the camaraderie and friendly mentality would evaporate?

 

[muk316]

For two packs, I don't see much changing, but then again, why even bother adding just two packs? So the person who got the luckiest pulls and best packs can win two more?

I'd rather just see a random draw each round, where one person in each division wins a pack. Three or four rounds would end up giving out 9-15 packs extra. I understand there's the chance that these packs given out could be thrown into the deck, but if there's still nothing to "win", then there's really no incentive for people to cheat.

 

[P_A]

Because just two packs would be enough to show people that we appreciate that someone won - regardless of the fact that it is such a small amount, or regardless of the logistics of opening the luckiest packs. It also helps to entice internet box buyers, since attendance at 4 prereleases, and winning all 4 would net them more packs than the same amount of money spent buying and shipping a box from online. And I submit to you (which you somewhat verified) that I don't think as many as an extra 2 packs won per age group would be enough to change people into ravenous wolves. It also still can be a transition from league to the more competitive events ie. BR's, without draining resources from PTO's or TPCi. It won't draw so many people that are looking for a big payout like those who only go to regionals and nationals, nor will it replace any of those in popularity. It just mildly increases the reward system already in place for current prereleases. Hopefully it will be enough to entice more players into prereleases, gaining revenue for both PTO's and TPCi.

Random draws where one person in each age group gets a booster is a decent idea, but while 3-6 boosters are usually available, chances are higher that the PTO might have to crack an extra box to get 15 extra boosters. And without TPCi actually mandating that every PTO does these random draws, how would we guarantee that this practice would be universally implemented? Whereas if TPCi were to allow PTO's to give out as many as 2 booster packs (allow - not mandate), the players would look forward to finding out from the TOM program who won, and the practice would become universal. Which do you think would be more apt to be carried out by PTO's - carrot or stick?