Ratings - Not Rewarding Good Play
- Thread starter Scizor
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I don't know how that's relevant to the topic at all, Steve, but whatever.
Profesa Magma: You just completely contradicted yourself, lol. I can't even figure out what you're trying to point out here. This is what you said:
You first say that one has to give ELO an adequate number of events to determine an accurate rating.
You THEN point out that someone who goes to only three events and "beats their ratings" deserves it more than them.
Um, you do realize that I went 20-4 in two States and a Regional and was in the T25. I had a City input up to that date, so I was in right there with only four events over several players who had significantly more events than me. Is driving 6, 6 and 12 hours one way for States and Regional not good enough for you or something? Put yourself in my situation. I work a heck of a lot harder than you do to get to events, trust me.
Profesa Magma: You just completely contradicted yourself, lol. I can't even figure out what you're trying to point out here. This is what you said:
You first say that one has to give ELO an adequate number of events to determine an accurate rating.
You THEN point out that someone who goes to only three events and "beats their ratings" deserves it more than them.
Um, you do realize that I went 20-4 in two States and a Regional and was in the T25. I had a City input up to that date, so I was in right there with only four events over several players who had significantly more events than me. Is driving 6, 6 and 12 hours one way for States and Regional not good enough for you or something? Put yourself in my situation. I work a heck of a lot harder than you do to get to events, trust me.
Hmm well no one said that the road to victory was easy right? Well perhaps it is easyer for some people, but if you have to take the long difficult rout so be it. If you can succed in doing so that will deffenitly prove that you have some talent. So what I'm trying to say is just hang in there and keep on fighting. If you make it to woulds the hard way you should have a better chance at winning it then the others. So good luck my friend and keep training!
Diaz
New Member
If you live in California, you have a SC and a RC in your state, you only need to leave the state for a second States.
There’s no restriction on the number of Cities that you can go to within your own state. So you should still be able to attend CCs and pad your rating without needing to leave the state. If there aren’t enough cities near you, that might be a problem with the number of TOs near you, not the rating system.
Without leaving Cali, you can attend BRs, CCs, a States and a Regionals. All you need to leave the state for is the second SC.
There’s no restriction on the number of Cities that you can go to within your own state. So you should still be able to attend CCs and pad your rating without needing to leave the state. If there aren’t enough cities near you, that might be a problem with the number of TOs near you, not the rating system.
Without leaving Cali, you can attend BRs, CCs, a States and a Regionals. All you need to leave the state for is the second SC.
meganium45
Active Member
Drew...my statement showed that I do not necessarily consider MO worthy of being a "Power State", and if you would have done the comp, you prob would have put NJ's number in there.
As for Chad...
Your 4 losses happened to occur in, in my estimation, the only 3 events that MATTER in the whole season.
If you would have gone 25-6, with your 10-0 State run being your only "power" event then I would say, with no qualms, NO, you do not deserve to be in the top 33.
You do have the advantage, leading up to Worlds, that you are prepped to have a good event, and lock in a seat to Worlds.
I hope you do. I have no reason to root against you.
As for Chad...
Your 4 losses happened to occur in, in my estimation, the only 3 events that MATTER in the whole season.
If you would have gone 25-6, with your 10-0 State run being your only "power" event then I would say, with no qualms, NO, you do not deserve to be in the top 33.
You do have the advantage, leading up to Worlds, that you are prepped to have a good event, and lock in a seat to Worlds.
I hope you do. I have no reason to root against you.
meganium45
Active Member
Chad, how many Cities did you attend?
Why?
In the St. Louis area we had 6 Cities, because we have 6 leagues.
We have 7 Battle Roads, same reason.
I don't care about you being from California.
The population out there is HUGE.
Key is, who is setting up your events, and are there enough gyms to rationalize more cities and battle roads?
Are there enough local players to have multiple leagues going?
I don't think St. Louis would be a top 5 City in California, but we have the events. And we have the numbers. Lotsa dedicated league leaders. Lotsa dedicated players.
You want the events? Help grow the game, have your parents help grow the game.
Willing to do it? If not....
Why?
In the St. Louis area we had 6 Cities, because we have 6 leagues.
We have 7 Battle Roads, same reason.
I don't care about you being from California.
The population out there is HUGE.
Key is, who is setting up your events, and are there enough gyms to rationalize more cities and battle roads?
Are there enough local players to have multiple leagues going?
I don't think St. Louis would be a top 5 City in California, but we have the events. And we have the numbers. Lotsa dedicated league leaders. Lotsa dedicated players.
You want the events? Help grow the game, have your parents help grow the game.
Willing to do it? If not....
ToysRUsKid
Active Member
NorCal CA/BRs have increased every year the past 3 years.
We actually had a back to back on the same weekend this year (what a shocker)
November-December, this usually how it works.
Chads Trip to my place #1 - Thanksgiving Break = Never A CC here, I never know why
Chads Trip to my place #2 - Christmas Break = 1 CC
Between that span, we have 3 weeks. The next couple of weekends he'll have to drive six more hours back down and up from school to my place just for a CC that we then drive 90 minutes for (minus the local one)
Would you drive to Ohio every week for the only CC's you can attend?
Chad only went to 1 CC this year.
We actually had a back to back on the same weekend this year (what a shocker)
November-December, this usually how it works.
Chads Trip to my place #1 - Thanksgiving Break = Never A CC here, I never know why
Chads Trip to my place #2 - Christmas Break = 1 CC
Between that span, we have 3 weeks. The next couple of weekends he'll have to drive six more hours back down and up from school to my place just for a CC that we then drive 90 minutes for (minus the local one)
Would you drive to Ohio every week for the only CC's you can attend?
Chad only went to 1 CC this year.
meganium45
Active Member
Don't blame me for that...you can see what I am pointing at.
Nothing restricts the number of events in your area except the OP in your area.
Vince
Nothing restricts the number of events in your area except the OP in your area.
Vince
Prof Clay
New Member
As I recall, there were a couple brand new PTO's named for the Cali area not long after the city events had been set for the season...I am sure those of you in the San Diego area and LA areas will find greater help in getting events in your areas in the upcoming season.
Get in touch with these folks...offer your services...offer to get leagues going in the hundreds of different municipalities that make up SoCal NoCal. The PTO's would LOVE to run events for you, but they need leagues and players to make it happen. :thumb:
Get in touch with these folks...offer your services...offer to get leagues going in the hundreds of different municipalities that make up SoCal NoCal. The PTO's would LOVE to run events for you, but they need leagues and players to make it happen. :thumb:
I'm not "sour" about the amount of events I get to. Let's make that clear. As I've said before, if people were paying entry fees to play in events, I would understand the advantage they get by going to more events.
I'm upset because I get to as many events as I can and have one of the best records in the country. And I do all this with so few events compared to everyone else in my state and the U.S. I shouldn't have to tell everyone how challenging it is to just never bomb an event, because if I do, I'm done and have no chance whatsoever. The luxury that you all have is a great thing to have and you should very thankful. I have a target on my back every event I go to and if I mess up once, it's over.
I've played as well as I possibly can this year, and it's just not good enough so far because I didn't get to a few more city level events. I think that's pretty messed up. It was the same way last year, except I only went 6-3 at Nationals, but hey, Kettler dropped and Ross didn't even play. If I got to the same amount of events as them, there's a lot of people that think I'd have qualified.
I'm not here to demand growth for the game or promote where I go to school for Pokemon. I love the game, but I certainly have priorities. I would say going through the lengths that I go through to get to the higher level events and my track record lately, particularly the last two seasons is good enough to be in the discussion for an invite.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: The point of the rating system was to reward consistent play and select players from all around the United States. If you throw out Oregon States because it wasn't even in my own state or against any of the competition I face here, I am 30-4 in California. That has to be among the top 5-10 best records against state competiton in the country. California is a region by itself. It's larger than a lot of countries that are receiving invites. My SPT Championship had 111 players just in Masters. Does anyone know how difficult it is to 10-0 an event like that? On no sleep and a 12 hour drive in the span of 24 hours, lol.
I have a great time playing, I'll see you all at Nationals.
I'm upset because I get to as many events as I can and have one of the best records in the country. And I do all this with so few events compared to everyone else in my state and the U.S. I shouldn't have to tell everyone how challenging it is to just never bomb an event, because if I do, I'm done and have no chance whatsoever. The luxury that you all have is a great thing to have and you should very thankful. I have a target on my back every event I go to and if I mess up once, it's over.
I've played as well as I possibly can this year, and it's just not good enough so far because I didn't get to a few more city level events. I think that's pretty messed up. It was the same way last year, except I only went 6-3 at Nationals, but hey, Kettler dropped and Ross didn't even play. If I got to the same amount of events as them, there's a lot of people that think I'd have qualified.
I'm not here to demand growth for the game or promote where I go to school for Pokemon. I love the game, but I certainly have priorities. I would say going through the lengths that I go through to get to the higher level events and my track record lately, particularly the last two seasons is good enough to be in the discussion for an invite.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: The point of the rating system was to reward consistent play and select players from all around the United States. If you throw out Oregon States because it wasn't even in my own state or against any of the competition I face here, I am 30-4 in California. That has to be among the top 5-10 best records against state competiton in the country. California is a region by itself. It's larger than a lot of countries that are receiving invites. My SPT Championship had 111 players just in Masters. Does anyone know how difficult it is to 10-0 an event like that? On no sleep and a 12 hour drive in the span of 24 hours, lol.
I have a great time playing, I'll see you all at Nationals.
meganium45
Active Member
Scizor, it is not the same as last year.
The problems with last year, for the most part, have been fixed with the K values of cities and BRs being reduced to where they should have been.
You rocked your State. You deserve to be in the top 50 in the country, and that is where you are.
Put together a good nationals run, and off you go to Orlando.
Vince
The problems with last year, for the most part, have been fixed with the K values of cities and BRs being reduced to where they should have been.
You rocked your State. You deserve to be in the top 50 in the country, and that is where you are.
Put together a good nationals run, and off you go to Orlando.
Vince
Scizor, did your loses come late in the season? Late season loses hurt.
I absolutely disagree that CA, or any state with large attendance, should get more invites to Worlds. Each state/region should be represented equally, not proportionally. But hey, our founding fathers bitterly fought over this same issue about "fair" representation.
Scizor, if possible, compare your record to others above you. I'll put money on it that they are comparable or better.
Anyway, I don't like the rating system as much as the next person, UNLESS it gets me an invitation to Worlds. THEN, it's the best system EVER. :tongue:
I absolutely disagree that CA, or any state with large attendance, should get more invites to Worlds. Each state/region should be represented equally, not proportionally. But hey, our founding fathers bitterly fought over this same issue about "fair" representation.
Scizor, if possible, compare your record to others above you. I'll put money on it that they are comparable or better.
Anyway, I don't like the rating system as much as the next person, UNLESS it gets me an invitation to Worlds. THEN, it's the best system EVER. :tongue:
how much money?
I went like 11-3 at states and then 8-3 at regionals. 19-6 is horrible, I bet chads record is much better than mine. I gained an overall 4.6 points from states and regionals which I had a 3rd and 4th place finish(3rd=states,4th=regionals)
I didn't say I wanted more invites than anywhere else. All I want is fair representation like you're talking about. Last I checked there were 2 players from the West Coast in the T25. Vince took it to T100, but look at the T25 by Region (I'm going to include 26th as 13th is banned or something):
1 Paul Johnston 1992.56 MA WA US
2 Matthew L 1907.38 MA LA US
3 Emmanuel Divens 1905.37 MA MN US
4 Adam Garcia 1895.45 MA TX US
5 Colin M 1895.03 MA MO US
6 Pablo Meza 1891.83 MA DF MX
7 Ian Brander 1890.04 MA CO US
8 Con L 1886.59 MA MA US
9 kyle sabelhaus 1879.46 MA SC US
10 Austin Reed 1874.72 MA OH US
11 Erik Nance 1874.34 MA NC US
12 Tyler Ninomura 1874.30 MA WA US
13 Not Opted Into Rankings 1871.10 MA OR US
14 Breton Brander 1870.61 MA CO US
15 Jay Hornung 1868.38 MA IA US
16 Ulises Santamaría 1867.41 MA DF MX
17 Josue Palomino 1865.10 MA MX MX
18 Jason Klaczynski 1862.62 MA IL US
19 Darrell Moreno 1862.23 MA NY US
20 Alex Hill 1860.42 MA FL US
21 Alex Frezza 1858.58 MA MA US
22 Dustin Zimmerman 1857.84 MA IN US
23 Andrew Cox 1856.93 MA MA US
24 Stephen Silvestro 1856.42 MA FL US
25 Ian Ryave 1853.83 MA PA US
26 John Kettler 1849.55 MA TX US
Pacific NorthWest, OR/WA: 2 Players
Mountain West, AZ/CO/UT: 2 Players
Southern Plains, LA/OK/TX: 3 Players
Missouri Valley, AR/MO/TN: 1 Player
Carolinas, NC/SC: 2 Players
South East, FL/GA: 2 Players
Midwest I, IA/MN/WI: 2 Players
Midwest II, IL/IN/MI/OH: 3 Players
Mid Atlantic, DE/MD/VA: 0 Players
New York, PA/NJ/NY: 2 Players
New England, CT/MA/RI: 3 Players
Northern California: 0 Players
Southern California: 0 Players
There's it broken down by Regions. And in case anyone tries to argue that California isn't 2 regions, remember that there are two Regionals here and this state is bigger than most of the entire eastern shorline, which has 7 players in the T25 (not including FL).
Steve: Well, I mentioned I went 6-3 at Nationals last year. I went to 3 BRs, won 2 of them and had a combined record of 15-2, won Regionals and I didn't play in any States - that was a big reason why I didn't get an invite. As you can see it's not exactly easy for me to get to them. But last year is last year.
Here's another for you above me other than Steve, Bobby Malec and his record: 18-6 overall at two States and a Regional, placing in T8 at one State and Regional and missing cut in the other. Has played in 114 games, winning 91 of them for an 80% win. Virtually the same record as me with lesser results at the "power events" and a lesser win % overall. There's two, Steve, how much money am I winning?
1 Paul Johnston 1992.56 MA WA US
2 Matthew L 1907.38 MA LA US
3 Emmanuel Divens 1905.37 MA MN US
4 Adam Garcia 1895.45 MA TX US
5 Colin M 1895.03 MA MO US
6 Pablo Meza 1891.83 MA DF MX
7 Ian Brander 1890.04 MA CO US
8 Con L 1886.59 MA MA US
9 kyle sabelhaus 1879.46 MA SC US
10 Austin Reed 1874.72 MA OH US
11 Erik Nance 1874.34 MA NC US
12 Tyler Ninomura 1874.30 MA WA US
13 Not Opted Into Rankings 1871.10 MA OR US
14 Breton Brander 1870.61 MA CO US
15 Jay Hornung 1868.38 MA IA US
16 Ulises Santamaría 1867.41 MA DF MX
17 Josue Palomino 1865.10 MA MX MX
18 Jason Klaczynski 1862.62 MA IL US
19 Darrell Moreno 1862.23 MA NY US
20 Alex Hill 1860.42 MA FL US
21 Alex Frezza 1858.58 MA MA US
22 Dustin Zimmerman 1857.84 MA IN US
23 Andrew Cox 1856.93 MA MA US
24 Stephen Silvestro 1856.42 MA FL US
25 Ian Ryave 1853.83 MA PA US
26 John Kettler 1849.55 MA TX US
Pacific NorthWest, OR/WA: 2 Players
Mountain West, AZ/CO/UT: 2 Players
Southern Plains, LA/OK/TX: 3 Players
Missouri Valley, AR/MO/TN: 1 Player
Carolinas, NC/SC: 2 Players
South East, FL/GA: 2 Players
Midwest I, IA/MN/WI: 2 Players
Midwest II, IL/IN/MI/OH: 3 Players
Mid Atlantic, DE/MD/VA: 0 Players
New York, PA/NJ/NY: 2 Players
New England, CT/MA/RI: 3 Players
Northern California: 0 Players
Southern California: 0 Players
There's it broken down by Regions. And in case anyone tries to argue that California isn't 2 regions, remember that there are two Regionals here and this state is bigger than most of the entire eastern shorline, which has 7 players in the T25 (not including FL).
Steve: Well, I mentioned I went 6-3 at Nationals last year. I went to 3 BRs, won 2 of them and had a combined record of 15-2, won Regionals and I didn't play in any States - that was a big reason why I didn't get an invite. As you can see it's not exactly easy for me to get to them. But last year is last year.
Here's another for you above me other than Steve, Bobby Malec and his record: 18-6 overall at two States and a Regional, placing in T8 at one State and Regional and missing cut in the other. Has played in 114 games, winning 91 of them for an 80% win. Virtually the same record as me with lesser results at the "power events" and a lesser win % overall. There's two, Steve, how much money am I winning?
the winning(w) would = opening bet was X,- the house rake of (r)10% to a maximum of $5, and the dealer tip.(y)
So it's x-r-y=w
Jason "Ness" Klaczynski: 9-2 Regional, 1st place, went to only one State, placing T4 with an overall record of 5-3. Combined record of 14-5 in those events. 74-20 on the year, rounds to 79% win. So, he placed in the T4 at a State, but took three losses, something I haven't done all year. His rating is high primarily because he won a Regional, but I won a State that is very comparative in size, undefeated and have a better record win wise and % wise in everything overall.
More coming!
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
BTW if anyone above me in rating (currently 36th or higher) is reading this and wants to post what I've been doing with records, it'd be nice.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
15-2 in my States is nearly exactly the same, but yeah, you're obviously up there for good reason.
More coming!
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
BTW if anyone above me in rating (currently 36th or higher) is reading this and wants to post what I've been doing with records, it'd be nice.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
15-2 in my States is nearly exactly the same, but yeah, you're obviously up there for good reason.
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I can vouch for the fact that States and Regionals have big impacts.
In CO, the Brander boys lost only once at each of the 3 States/Regionals they played at. My kid lost twice at each of the same events, finishing ahead of them at one event and right below them at the other two, virtually idential, finish-wise. Yet, they are ranked much higher.
The ranking system works as designed. Losing in the playoffs is the problem. If you make the playoffs and don't win out, you don't get rewarded. Only the champ get the big boost.
That's my point here. You must separate the swiss rounds from the playoffs in order to do a decent comparison.
It would be interesting to put all the records in a spreadsheet and compare, separating the wins/loses according to swiss/playoffs. I really think it's the playoffs that excel certain players (the champs) and either hurts or adds little value to all others.
That's the difference. I think those above you won major events, possible going undefeated, which really boosted them to the top, like the CO Brander boys. If they performed average at the BRs and Cities, yet excelled at the States/Regionals, they SHOULD be ranked high.
Anyway, I don't doubt you feel strongly that CA is competitive. The current ranking system doesn't like highly competitive ( 4 or more top players ) in one region. In the current ranking system, there can really only be about 3 or less top players in each region; otherwise, the competitition prevents a few from rising to the top. That's the nature of the beast.
In CO, the Brander boys lost only once at each of the 3 States/Regionals they played at. My kid lost twice at each of the same events, finishing ahead of them at one event and right below them at the other two, virtually idential, finish-wise. Yet, they are ranked much higher.
The ranking system works as designed. Losing in the playoffs is the problem. If you make the playoffs and don't win out, you don't get rewarded. Only the champ get the big boost.
That's my point here. You must separate the swiss rounds from the playoffs in order to do a decent comparison.
It would be interesting to put all the records in a spreadsheet and compare, separating the wins/loses according to swiss/playoffs. I really think it's the playoffs that excel certain players (the champs) and either hurts or adds little value to all others.
That's the difference. I think those above you won major events, possible going undefeated, which really boosted them to the top, like the CO Brander boys. If they performed average at the BRs and Cities, yet excelled at the States/Regionals, they SHOULD be ranked high.
Anyway, I don't doubt you feel strongly that CA is competitive. The current ranking system doesn't like highly competitive ( 4 or more top players ) in one region. In the current ranking system, there can really only be about 3 or less top players in each region; otherwise, the competitition prevents a few from rising to the top. That's the nature of the beast.
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TheDarkTwins
Active Member
See, I thought that was true, but I was doing the math and found out I would be over 20 points lower this year than if playoffs were "unrated". I think previous years for me I would of benefited from an "unrated" top cut, but I seemed to be improving overall so I would think that I would rather have something else than Unrated Top Cuts. What that is, I am not sure, but if the ranking system needs tweaking I dont think that is what needs it.
Drew
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