Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Reinventing the Mulligan System

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I do agree that 2-3 consecutive bad starts is either a "sign from the Pokemon gods" or your deck is flawed.

All starts are not equal, but optional mulligans CAN certainly help level things.

What would be REALLY funny is to see someone start with an average hand, hope to improve it a bit, then do an optional mulligan and end up with hand-crap. There needs to be some kind of elevated risk factor for taking optional mullies. Your opponent taking extra cards is not entirely the answer, IMO.
 
I do agree that 2-3 consecutive bad starts is either a "sign from the Pokemon gods" or your deck is flawed.

All starts are not equal, but optional mulligans CAN certainly help level things.

What would be REALLY funny is to see someone start with an average hand, hope to improve it a bit, then do an optional mulligan and end up with hand-crap. There needs to be some kind of elevated risk factor for taking optional mullies. Your opponent taking extra cards is not entirely the answer, IMO.
The idea is that the current system allows too much risk, we're not trying to mirror the level of punishment Pokemon currently has. What's wrong with your opponent drawing another card? Another card can change the game.
 
Also I understand chess and poker can be good comparisons in this situation, but telling people to go play that game as an answer to this problem isn't helping anything at all.

Your "problem" isn't a problem by everyone's standards though. Nor can it be said that a majority of the Master division players dislike the current mulligan system. I actually enjoy the mulligan system and think it makes the game more fun for me. You might counter this and say the game would be "better" with your propsed system, but that's only relative to your outlook on the game. I don't really see this as an issue, and I think a lot of other players dont see this as an issue because they understand that the pokemon tcg is an inherently luck based game.


If the purpose of this thread is to just vent about something that someone doesnt like about the pokemon tcg (lol, and i see a lot of those threads here on pokegym) then by all means go ahead and vent. But if the purpose of this thread is to enact some sort of change through a consensus that just isn't there or can not be gathered, in addition to correcting a "problem" that really isn't a problem because people come back from bad starts all the time (I for one have just as many amazing come back stories as DarthPika has epic hands of failure that make him lose stories) i think you're mainly wasting your time when you could be making decks that take advantage of the current system in place.

Go play chess, you'll be less frustrated I think. lol
 
Your "problem" isn't a problem by everyone's standards though. Nor can it be said that a majority of the Master division players dislike the current mulligan system. I actually enjoy the mulligan system and think it makes the game more fun for me. You might counter this and say the game would be "better" with your propsed system, but that's only relative to your outlook on the game. I don't really see this as an issue, and I think a lot of other players dont see this as an issue because they understand that the pokemon tcg is an inherently luck based game.


If the purpose of this thread is to just vent about something that someone doesnt like about the pokemon tcg (lol, and i see a lot of those threads here on pokegym) then by all means go ahead and vent. But if the purpose of this thread is to enact some sort of change through a consensus that just isn't there or can not be gathered, in addition to correcting a "problem" that really isn't a problem because people come back from bad starts all the time (I for one have just as many amazing come back stories as DarthPika has epic hands of failure that make him lose stories) i think you're mainly wasting your time when you could be making decks that take advantage of the current system in place.
For the majority of the people that have posted on this thread, aside from the unlimited aspect, which I now don't advocate, have liked the idea. No one likes bad starts right? But who actually decides to think of some way to change it, even when it happens to them? Most people would probably think they couldn't change anything, but I'm taking initiative, and for those that have read my idea, most like it so far.

Obviously this is not because I do not like the Pokemon card game. Also to counterpoint where you say this isn't a problem, and is only my opinion that it is a problem, it is also just your opinion that it isn't a problem, so that doesn't really create a valid arguement against creating a new mulligan system.
 
lol, I could've made my last post 6 words and still get the same message across:

Why fix something that isn't broke?
 
It's your opinion that it's not.

Just like how its your opinion that mulligans are a "problem?"

Man I really wish there was a set definition for what "broken" means in a competitive game, lol. I recommend you read David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" to see where my perspective comes from. (*I'll edit this post with the quote when I can find it)
 
To me, "Broken" = unlimited format(so many good memories). lol

As for my statement about the mulligan rule eliminating the need for match play, I was simply stating that if this takes the bad start out of the equation, then there is no need for more than one game.

If it does not eliminate the need for match play, then all it will do is create a marginal shift in stability of starting hands and likely increase the length of a tournament by an inordinate amount of time to do so.

Anyways, it's moot because your favorable playtesting results are from unlimited mulligans.
I know it sounds crazy, but I bet you can pick any card game in the world and get good starting hands if you can just say, "mulligan" whenever you don't like your start.
 
Why fix something that isn't broke?

I think it's "broke". Why do we even bother with having this big build up to get to top cut, when the current mulligan system pretty much brings it down to "who ever gets the better starting hand wins"? I am SO tired of playing well all day, and then being ruined where I really need the win because my deck gives me a bad hand. Really... You can say all you want to use claydol, rosanne, call, etc. However, that's STILL not going to stop you from every now and then getting completely unplayable hands.

My states deck had:

4 Rosanne
1 Bebe
3 Uxie
1 Uxie lv.x
1 Chatot
4 Cyrus
1 Cynthia
Standard SP trainers
4 Call
4 Crobat G + zong G (to ensure even more consistency)
4 Warp Point
1 Unown Q (get out of Azelf/Mesprit/Uxie starts with ease)
3-1 Palkia G line
1-1 Dialga G line
Azelf (time walk can be abused as a search tool in palkia)
Other Palkia lock junk

This deck litterally got a t2 Pearl Breath/Second Strike off 9 times out of 10. TWICE in a row in top cut I got a Mesprit, basic energy, and SP trainers. The second time I actually got a Dialga in it, but the same basic unplaybe mess. Please explain to me how the current mulligan system is fair? My deck was as consistent as it could possibly be. I went 5-1 in swiss that day to get to top cut. I then proceed to lose to a deck I really should have won against because of 2 unplaybe hands in a row. Why even bother having a winner if the winner beat the much better player because thier opponent got horribly unlucky? Doesn't that sound just a little wrong to you? I really hate how the current system basically states "It doesn't matter how consistent you are. One bad hand for you and your done". :nonono:

As for those who say it takes an incredible amount of skill to come back from a dead hand... pray tell, how do you win when you can't even ATTACK your hand is so bad? Hmm?
 
Well, I've had bad starting hands too.
Back in the day of haymaker; one Electabuzz and six fighting energy, topdeck another fighting energy(almost every fighting energy in the deck).
The days of Tyrogue, when both players would get a lone Tyrogue start and not much else, and it suddenly became a contest of who could flip two heads first.

Luck happens.

So DarthPika, how many times have you won a game because your opponent had a bad hand?
Isn't it convenient that it's only a gigantic problem after you get donked in a big event?

It's like the old Stone Barrage Geodude(Fossil), so crazy that nobody thinks about it, then some little kid gets six heads in a row and takes out your Magmar.
As much as it sucks to be on the receiving end of it, luck happens and no matter how low you make the odds, there will always be odds.

As it stands, the only 100% way to take luck out of starting the game is a completely broken mechanic.
Why not just let players choose two cards for their starting hand and draw the other five?
Somehow, it seems like a much more. . . . balanced way to solve your problem.

Donks have existed since Base, so I guess I just don't see it as the game-destroying monster that you do.
 
When I've won because my opponent had a bad hand, I've always felt that the win was an empty one. What fun is it winning if there's no skill involved? I hate it when I lose to a dead hand, and I hate it when my opponents lose because of a dead hand. When I'm in top cut, I want to be against the best of the best. I want to have a game. And by game, I mean a REAL game, as in a 40min down to the wire, nail bitter of a game that shows the true extent of both players skill and knowledge of the game. Bad hands happen more often than you seem to think. I'm tired of winning/losing because of them. I play to win, but I also play because I enjoy the game. What fun are 5-10min matches that you win with out even trying because your opponent literally can't draw anything?

I don't mind a little luck in the game. What I do mind is when luck completely determines the out come of a game. You should know as well as anyone else that a bad start usually means a lost game. IMO that shouldn't even be counted as luck. Luck is hitting that heads on the burn, or flipping heads with Gengars power. That's "in game" luck, and is fine. Bad luck in the sense that you never even have a chance to play the game really shouldn't be considered the same thing.
 
Just like how its your opinion that mulligans are a "problem?"

Man I really wish there was a set definition for what "broken" means in a competitive game, lol. I recommend you read David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" to see where my perspective comes from. (*I'll edit this post with the quote when I can find it)
Yes, they are opinion's, thank you for reiterating my post.

To me, "Broken" = unlimited format(so many good memories). lol

As for my statement about the mulligan rule eliminating the need for match play, I was simply stating that if this takes the bad start out of the equation, then there is no need for more than one game.

If it does not eliminate the need for match play, then all it will do is create a marginal shift in stability of starting hands and likely increase the length of a tournament by an inordinate amount of time to do so.

Anyways, it's moot because your favorable playtesting results are from unlimited mulligans.
I know it sounds crazy, but I bet you can pick any card game in the world and get good starting hands if you can just say, "mulligan" whenever you don't like your start.
Oh, well discussing the need of playing games best of 3 is for the other thread. You can create the condition that there is this mulligan system, and then say it isn't needed, because if we did that on here we would be discussing best of 3 games, not the mulligan system. But to reply to what you said, The mulligan system directly and almost distinctly affects bad starts, while playing games best of three shows a truer insight as to who would win more often between the two decks, and it does slightly fix bad starts, but not as much as this mulligan system.

Mulliganning 3 times at max will not be that time consuming, in the other thread the time for playing games best of 3 is already determined for the match to be 45 min, which is what's done in Europe and is conducted just fine.

My playtesting results are not entirely moot as you say, but I do understand they aren't that valid either. Also we never went crazy on the mulligans so that we could get a god hand because we understood the hand would lose to the opponent with a moderate hand and 7+ cards, but I don't care about that anymore. It's better to limit the system than rather tempt people to try and "abuse" it and then lose.

How about this:
Get no basics- show your opponent and free mull, otherwise mtg mull.
I've already addressed why mulliganning into a smaller hand can't work with Pokemon. The idea is to get a basic, with a smaller hand, that only decreases the chances of getting a basic, and decreases the chance of a decent hand even more.
Well, I've had bad starting hands too.
Back in the day of haymaker; one Electabuzz and six fighting energy, topdeck another fighting energy(almost every fighting energy in the deck).
The days of Tyrogue, when both players would get a lone Tyrogue start and not much else, and it suddenly became a contest of who could flip two heads first.

Luck happens.

So DarthPika, how many times have you won a game because your opponent had a bad hand?
Isn't it convenient that it's only a gigantic problem after you get donked in a big event?

It's like the old Stone Barrage Geodude(Fossil), so crazy that nobody thinks about it, then some little kid gets six heads in a row and takes out your Magmar.
As much as it sucks to be on the receiving end of it, luck happens and no matter how low you make the odds, there will always be odds.

As it stands, the only 100% way to take luck out of starting the game is a completely broken mechanic.
Why not just let players choose two cards for their starting hand and draw the other five?
Somehow, it seems like a much more. . . . balanced way to solve your problem.

Donks have existed since Base, so I guess I just don't see it as the game-destroying monster that you do.
And you would've had a fighting chance if you could mulligan that hand into a better hand, right? That's what we're saying, that luck doesn't have to completely ruin games for you, they can give you a handicap sure, and even that's manageable. But the games we are talking about, which are the games everyone gets, not just us, are when luck just tells you that you lose and you can't do anything about it, no I don't care that your deck beat everybody elses, no I dont care that the game just started, no I dont care that this is an important tournament, you're going to lose and there's nothing you can do about it.

Exactly what about choosing two cards and then 5 random ones for a hand sounds fair? Sounds very manipulative and abusive, our version while maintaining an amount of restriction and fairness, still leaves you with random cards, none of which were chosen.

Also, what is it supposed to mean that it's been around since base? They've changed rules since then, all card games have. Just because it's been around forever doesn't mean it's right.
 
Bad hands happened as far back as I can remember.

Bad hands happened more frequently in modified than in unlimited(because of the obvious difference in card pool).

Even if both players have exactly the start they wanted, it won't always be a 40-minute nail biter of a game.
Next up, nerfing bad matchups because a person shouldn't skillfully win their way into top X and then be eliminated due to a bad archetype matchup. lol

Everybody has been donked more than once in Pokemon and I judged enough events to see my share of bad setups.

What can I say, it happens.
It's a game.
At the end of the day, I go home, scratch my dog behind his ears, ask my wife how her day was and move on.
If I win or lose, it's still a game and has no effect on anything outside of that game.
Besides, if losing a card game in an unsatisfactory manner is the worst thing that happens to me, I've got a pretty good thing going. lol

The chance of a donk makes things interesting.
Whenever I won via donk, I offered to play a game against them(outside of the tournament), just to actually play it out for the fun of the game(the thrill of the game instead of the thirst for prizes).
It's a game and if you dissect it too much, it becomes something overly-analytical where everybody only cares about the prizes and fun becomes an afterthought.

Editing to avoid a double-post.

I said that donks had been around since base(if you didn't know that, you may not be as wise to the ways of the pokemon as you presume yourself to be).

Yup, I lost due to a bad starting hand. Oh well.
If it isn't a bad start, it can be due to suddenly not drawing energies, or having all of your key stage 2's prized or something of that nature.

I love the game with all of its flaws.
Luck happens.
If the rules aren't balanced precisely enough for you, you could always try games with a mana more to your liking. lol
 
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Bad hands happened as far back as I can remember.

Bad hands happened more frequently in modified than in unlimited(because of the obvious difference in card pool).

Even if both players have exactly the start they wanted, it won't always be a 40-minute nail biter of a game.
Next up, nerfing bad matchups because a person shouldn't skillfully win their way into top X and then be eliminated due to a bad archetype matchup. lol

Everybody has been donked more than once in Pokemon and I judged enough events to see my share of bad setups.

What can I say, it happens.
It's a game.
At the end of the day, I go home, scratch my dog behind his ears, ask my wife how her day was and move on.
If I win or lose, it's still a game and has no effect on anything outside of that game.
Besides, if losing a card game in an unsatisfactory manner is the worst thing that happens to me, I've got a pretty good thing going. lol

The chance of a donk makes things interesting.
Whenever I won via donk, I offered to play a game against them(outside of the tournament), just to actually play it out for the fun of the game(the thrill of the game instead of the thirst for prizes).
It's a game and if you dissect it too much, it becomes something overly-analytical where everybody only cares about the prizes and fun becomes an afterthought.

Editing to avoid a double-post.

I said that donks had been around since base(if you didn't know that, you may not be as wise to the ways of the pokemon as you presume yourself to be).

Yup, I lost due to a bad starting hand. Oh well.
If it isn't a bad start, it can be due to suddenly not drawing energies, or having all of your key stage 2's prized or something of that nature.

I love the game with all of its flaws.
Luck happens.
If the rules aren't balanced precisely enough for you, you could always try games with a mana more to your liking. lol
And we're telling you bad hands don't have to happen, you don't have to lose because lady luck decrees it as such, and it's become apparent that wasn't an intended part of the game, which we see through things like call for family and call energy.

Exactly how is losing without being able to do one thing about it supposed to be a part of the game? Further more how is that supposed to be fun? I don't see how this is supposed to be an intended part of the game, for fun or competitive reasons.

This discussion is pretty much in the narrow of pokemon, talking about it in the scope of things doesn't really apply. If you don't care about it and just want to do the things you always do without thinking about the game, then don't discuss it. But to us, you're right, it is a game, a game that we care about making fair for everyone.

I've already said that a tournament is not intended for fun, it's blatantly for competition and elitism. There is a top 4, and then there is everyone else who didn't win. We have leauge for fun, we have prereleases for fun, but we do not have tournaments for fun. If people may find competition and elitism fun, then that is something they did, but was not instilled in them from the tournament.

I understand what you meant when you said donks had been around since base, what I meant was that wasn't any kind of rational to not change the rules now. They had bill as a trainer back then, does that mean we should have that now? That was then, this is now.

Also, notice that you admitted the game has flaws, one that we're trying to fix, but you just don't care to change. And telling me to play another game has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. This is about pokemon, bring up other games to show examples is fine, but solving the problem with another game isn't really an acceptable resolution and is just insulting. I've already said not to do this, if you need to, please re-read the thread.
 
i thought of a new mulligan system
idk but let me know you guys think
its basically the same as the one out now but say you mulligan with a basic in your hand
you would have to reveal your hand to show you have a basic (instead of no basics) and mulligan for for 6 cards and your opponent has the option to draw an extra card

that way there skill inside the mulligan
idk let me know what you guys think
 
i thought of a new mulligan system
idk but let me know you guys think
its basically the same as the one out now but say you mulligan with a basic in your hand
you would have to reveal your hand to show you have a basic (instead of no basics) and mulligan for for 6 cards and your opponent has the option to draw an extra card

that way there skill inside the mulligan
idk let me know what you guys think
Once again, I've explained to a sense deafening extent why mulliganning to a smaller hand will not work. The idea is to obtain a basic Pokemon, and if you get a smaller hand that dwindles the likely hood even more so, we're trying to make the mulligan system fairer. Also showing your opponent parts of your deck through mulliganning is giving your opponent an unfair advantage that they don't really need in the first place.
 
So it is your opinion that the opponent should get less from a completely optional mulligan than they do from a forced(no basic) mulligan?

Of course, I'm sure the response will be another completely rational post about how nobody understands the perfect logic of your unproven theory.

So just to clarify:
1. Having no optional mulligans was fine for over a decade, up until the topic creator got donked because of a bad hand at a big event, then it instantly became a travesty that should have never been that way, but the topic creator just didn't notice until he was inconvenienced by the same rules that everybody has always used.

2. Optional mulligans should only be allowed in certain age groups(making rules that are age specific).

3. Testing of the optional mulligans has shown that when a person can shuffle their hand at will and retry until they like what they see, that better hands are more common.

4. Regardless of the massive benefit to be gained by the person using the optional mulligan, the only drawback should be that the opponent draws 1 card.

5. The fallback to anything is, "re-read the thread".

If you want to shout from the mountain tops that the apple you're eating doesn't taste enough like a pear, don't be shocked if somebody says to just eat a pear.

As far as caring about making it fair for everybody. . .
If each person has the same amount of basics in their deck, same trainers, and so on, wouldn't their odds of getting a lame start be almost exactly the same?

It may be disliked, but it's no less fair than flipping a properly balanced coin.

Then again, I don't feel there is any hope of a healthy discussion at this point(anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and has no clue what they are talking about after all), so I'm probably going to completely forget about this topic and move on to something else.
Have a pleasant day though and I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.
 
So it is your opinion that the opponent should get less from a completely optional mulligan than they do from a forced(no basic) mulligan?

Of course, I'm sure the response will be another completely rational post about how nobody understands the perfect logic of your unproven theory.

So just to clarify:
1. Having no optional mulligans was fine for over a decade, up until the topic creator got donked because of a bad hand at a big event, then it instantly became a travesty that should have never been that way, but the topic creator just didn't notice until he was inconvenienced by the same rules that everybody has always used.

2. Optional mulligans should only be allowed in certain age groups(making rules that are age specific).

3. Testing of the optional mulligans has shown that when a person can shuffle their hand at will and retry until they like what they see, that better hands are more common.

4. Regardless of the massive benefit to be gained by the person using the optional mulligan, the only drawback should be that the opponent draws 1 card.

5. The fallback to anything is, "re-read the thread".

If you want to shout from the mountain tops that the apple you're eating doesn't taste enough like a pear, don't be shocked if somebody says to just eat a pear.

As far as caring about making it fair for everybody. . .
If each person has the same amount of basics in their deck, same trainers, and so on, wouldn't their odds of getting a lame start be almost exactly the same?

It may be disliked, but it's no less fair than flipping a properly balanced coin.

Then again, I don't feel there is any hope of a healthy discussion at this point(anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and has no clue what they are talking about after all), so I'm probably going to completely forget about this topic and move on to something else.
Have a pleasant day though and I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.
Yes, that I think this new system should be put in place is my opinion.

1. No, it's been a problem, it's never been fair, we even see developers trying to fix the problem with things like call energy and call for family. The rule for confusion was apparently ok for years and then they changed it, other games like Magic have had rules for years and then changed it, just because a rule has time under it's belt doesn't mean it has more reason to stay.

2. Yes, I've said that this should be restricted to older age groups.

3. Yes, better hands are more common, which is the goal of this new system, to eliminate bad hands which take away games from people and give them no fair chance to fight.

4. Plenty of card games use the handicap for mulligans in one card increments, one card per mulligan is a lot more changing than you think.

5. I only say to re-read the thread because the same problems that I've already answered keep coming up For example, I had already addressed in the first page, the second post I made I believe, about how this would be restricted to certain age groups, but low and behold the exact same problem is brought up two pages later because someone didn't read that I had already addressed it.

Telling people to play a completely different game does not solve the situation, the goal from the beginning has obviously been not to create a fair based game, but to change something in pokemon to take away a certain level of luck and replace it with direct skill choice.

Just because everyone has an equal chance of losing without having a choice, doesn't mean it's fair.

It's absolutely not the same as flipping a coin, when you're flipping a coin that means that you're already in a controlled situation, this cuts you off from making any decisions other than your deck list or shuffling and then leaves your game at chance.

I don't understand how this isn't "healthy". To imply that I just absolutely refuse to listen to anyone, is a bold faced lie, I have replied to nearly everyone on this thread and have clearly explained my own logic. To which you also implied I thought was infallible, well not only have a changed the system because of what other posters have said, but if there is something wrong with my logic then by all means point it out, that's exactly why I made this thread and have been replying to nearly everyone who replies.

Also making this statement and then stating that you aren't going to reply anymore really shows that you don't care about making this point anyway, I've listened to all the things you've said, replied to all the things you've said, but now you just don't feel like discussing it anymore, which is fine, but you just had to get in the last word before you left. Doesn't that just make you spiteful?
 
Mulligan issue is really a consistency of build issue. I have a t-shirt that I bought from kohls that I wear at events. It says
"I am not Lucky, I am Good!" Meaning what might seem like luck to some, is "Intelligent Design"

Deck Building works through the balance of
Speed, (How quickly is it on Offense)
Consitency, (Likilhood of Set Up)
Stability, (Can handle Disruption)
Potentcy. (Attack/Disruption ability)

Flygon-Queen deck that I would give Speed=5, Consistency=9, Stability=5, Potency=8.
Uxie Double Donk deck is one that I would give Speed=10, Consistency=10, Stability=1, Potency=7.

Thus both decks are valid decks, the Flygon is built for the long game, with a 4 call 3/4 Claydoll line with really just Flygon and Queen as attackers. Can I lose to speed, yes, do i do better if I am set up.
Uxie Double Donk Consistently will I will deck myself first turn, put 140 damage on the board fist trainer turn, then do 80 damage every turn after, it's fault.... Very easy to disrupt it with trainer locks, power locks, etc.

Both Decks can win, both decks are designed to hit different parts of this Deck Spectrum. That is the metagame. Some people complain about donks and bad starts, but they are ussually playing TOO MANY TECH"S.

Yeah, I would win often if I had a Deck with Dusknoir, Luxray, Machamp, Nidoqueen, Gengar, Flygon, and Claydol... But what are the odds of getting all that out... Not really. The deck building needs to account for the enviroment to make your deck consistent enough to not have dead hands, but potent enough to win in the long game. Possibly some disruption elements to tame the speed elements in the meta game.

This is why complaining about mulligans and bad hands, what I am really hearing is
"I over tech my deck, and I have too many losses due to bad starting hands, or decks that out speed me."

Solution, Cut down on your tech, add consistency. Your tech gives you victories over good players, but the tech also increase the odds of you losing to bad players. Again, there will always be dead hands in even the most consistent builds. If there are changes to the mulligan rules, it just moves the enviroment to heavier tech, less consistent builds.
 
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