Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG

[vaporeon]

Basically all I see here, is you complaining about all the cards you lose to. The only unbalanced part of Pokemon is the first turn rules. All the cards that you said 'need to be banned' can be, and are, played around every day.

I also find it funny that you want Juniper banned, but then want Stevens advice back. Same with Plus Power gone, but want Strength Charm back. Strength Charm still gives that 'Magic Ten' that allows Reshiram to OHKO anything with 130 Hp.

Junk Arm is far from broken. You have to discard two cards. It has a cost. It's very balanced.

Yanmega is good. I'll agree, but it's far from broken. Sure, it can attack for free, but it doesnt do THAT much damage for free, and it's not always possible to the same hand size. It even limits itself on how many cards it can play a turn if it doesn't have Copycat/Judge. Also, IIRC, no one was complaining about G-Dos being good. Matter-of-fact, I'm pretty sure people were saying it sucked. Yet it did 90 for free. Hmmm.

Seeker would actually be better if it didnt pick up your opponent bench IMO. Alot of the time it allows your opponent to pick up that Pachi/Shaymin/Blissey Prime/ damaged pokemon.

Also, WHY in Gods' name would you WANT power spray back? That was the most frustrating card I've ever played against. Power Spraying an Uxie would win you the game, you know how much it sucked t get an Uxie power sprayed, then have nothing for 3-4 turns.

Lastly, I don't really understand all the Catcher hate. It disrupts your opponent. So? It's good, sure maybe even 'broken' but it's not really that big of deal. Both sides can use it, and it still takes some skill to play. You have to pull up the right card in the first place. I can't tell you how many times someone's catcher'd up the wrong pokemon, not hurting me at all. I feel like the worst thing Pokemon could do is start banning cards. If you don't like what's being printed, and think things are 'OMGZ TO POWERFULL!!!!1!!!' stop playing. You play to win the game, and you play the cards that win you games. Enough said. I'm tired of seeing everyone complaining about so many things. If you don't like it THAT much, why are you even here in the first place?

Like I said, these thing would bring skill back to the game. Its not about losing to the cards because everyone loses to them, even you. This thread is about trying to bring back skill to the game, not to see how many times I can junk arm a plus power to get a KO.

 

[HornetsBasketballFan]

Like I said, these thing would bring skill back to the game. Its not about losing to the cards because everyone loses to them, even you. This thread is about trying to bring back skill to the game, not to see how many times I can junk arm a plus power to get a KO.

But all the cards you mentioned also take skill to use correctly. So I don't see your point.

 

[baby mario]

How would Power Spray AND Goop Gas Attack (presumably changed so they work on Abilities) bring skill back into the game?

Would Power Spray mean having SP back too?

Please explain HOW the cards you want back require any more skill to use than the ones you want banned, because all I see in your lists are . . .

a) Here's a bunch of current cards I don't like

and

b) Here's a bunch of random cards I like from the old days

There's no real thought gone into this, or how it would affect the meta at all. (PP is broken and Strength Charm is something you want back?)

 

[vaporeon]

But all the cards you mentioned also take skill to use correctly. So I don't see your point.

They don't really take skill, just play and profit. We don't need so many easy to play cards.

---------- Post added 10/26/2011 at 04:43 AM ----------

How would Power Spray AND Goop Gas Attack (presumably changed so they work on Abilities) bring skill back into the game?

Would Power Spray mean having SP back too?

Please explain HOW the cards you want back require any more skill to use than the ones you want banned, because all I see in your lists are . . .

a) Here's a bunch of current cards I don't like

and

b) Here's a bunch of random cards I like from the old days

There's no real thought gone into this, or how it would affect the meta at all. (PP is broken and Strength Charm is something you want back?)

You can't stack Strength Charm, plus its a tool so you have to make a choice. We need a card 'like' Power Spray so other decks just don't run the field. Goop Gas Attack would be changed to work with abilities and would need to be a supporter. It's just a list of cards I don't like because I use them. What I listed were cards we need back that bring skill back to the game.

 

[baby mario]

They don't really take skill, just play and profit. We don't need so many easy to play cards.

Once more:

Please explain why . . .

- Strength Charm takes more skill than PP
- Steven's takes more skill than Juniper
- Goop Gas Attack takes more skill than Catcher or Reversal

Thank you.

 

[Ness]

I think people have a misconception that the amount of skill it takes to play the Pokemon TCG has changed signficantly over the years. The reality is that the skill has remained about the same (perhaps a little higher in 2005, 2006, 2008), but players have simply gotten better. As players get better and a game gets more competitive, luck starts to decide more games.

One of the best things you can do to promote skill (and originality) is not post deck lists online. Make your own decks. When everyone starts copying lists online, that entire area of skill (deck building) is now removed from the game. Sites that publish deck lists are bad for the game and actually remove skill from the game. Notice how TheTopCut never actually posts deck lists. In fact, Kyle Sucevich actually had to start playing weaker decks online because so many people started to actually exploit his stream, printscreening his matches for 30 minutes until they could copy his entire list. Sad!

 

[vaporeon]

Once more:

Please explain why . . .

- Strength Charm takes more skill than PP
- Steven's takes more skill than Juniper
- Goop Gas Attack takes more skill than Catcher or Reversal

Thank you.

You can't stack Strength Charm, you don't always draw six cards with Steven and has restrictions and you can't compare GGA to Catcher or Reversal.

 

[HornetsBasketballFan]

You want to know why Stevens Advice is actually MORE broken that Juniper? You don't discard your hand. Which means you don't have to worry about ;laying without those resources. Which technically requires LESS skill. Most people don't stack Plus Power either. It's mostly used to get all the 120's to be 130's.

 

[Ness]

I would love to see supporter cards like Steven's Advice come back. I enjoyed 2005 when Copycat & Steven's were the main forms of draw and you had some power over how many cards your opponent could draw. This was one of the overlooked factors of skill that would decide Medicham ex vs Nidoqueen games. A smart Medicham player could manipulate his hand and bench size to limit the Nidoqueen player's draw and run them out of Nidoqueens.

 

[HornetsBasketballFan]

They don't really take skill, just play and profit. We don't need so many easy to play cards.

.

So NO skill goes into deciding which cards to discard with Junk Arm? No Skill(Albeit more of a deck building skill) goes into playing Vileplume? No skill goes into playing Yanmega? Cause I've seen a lot of people make the wrong plays with all three of these cards. Why? They lacked the SKILL. Just because you may/may not have the skill to play these cards correctly, doesn't mean that they should be banned. No card should ever be banned. Sets should be rotated, and thats it. Banning cards would be the worst thing P!P ever did, and would kill this game.

Also, the way I see it. QUIT COMPLAINING. As I stated before, if you do not like this game, or anything about this game. Quit playing. Complaining on here that certain cards are 'to good' and 'should be banned' is just dumb. They're good and rare because that's how card games work. 9/10 the best cards are the rare ones. And the best cards get played. Play them, counter them, or quit.

 

[vaporeon]

I'm going to stop you there. You seem to get skill and misplays mixed up. Even the most skilled players misplay from time to time from a number of thing. Games ban things to keep the playing field healthy. Could you imagine what the VGC would be like if they allowed things like Mewtwo to be played. In the Video Game tournaments for Pokemon, they have quite a large ban list for Pokemon, attacks and items. They banned them to keep the game healthy, so why not the card game.

Sure, some decks take skill to play and to me those would be any trainer lock and rogue deck. Most of the decks winninf now in the high numbers are just autopilot decks. it's not hard for those decks to do what they do and maintain a setup. Yanmega prime on the other hand, takes little to no skill at all. All you do is match hand sizes and go from them. Maybe you're a yanmega player so sorry if you take offense to it.

This is far from complaining. This thread is for trying to find a way to fix the game and everytime someone post something to try to fix, people rage and say get out. I say things like this because I have a deep love for this game and format after format, the game has been getting worse and I've been waiting for a good format now for a few years, since ex series was rotated. That was a long time ago.

It's hard to counter cards or plays when there is nothing out to counter them. We have no good stadiums, tools, TM's, no good options of recovery. The only thing good are a hand full of Pokemon that people use in every deck. How do you not see that as a problem?

 

[cabd]

I'm going to stop you there. You seem to get skill and misplays mixed up. Even the most skilled players misplay from time to time from a number of thing. Games ban things to keep the playing field healthy. Could you imagine what the VGC would be like if they allowed things like Mewtwo to be played. In the Video Game tournaments for Pokemon, they have quite a large ban list for Pokemon, attacks and items. They banned them to keep the game healthy, so why not the card game.

Sure, some decks take skill to play and to me those would be any trainer lock and rogue deck. Most of the decks winninf now in the high numbers are just autopilot decks. it's not hard for those decks to do what they do and maintain a setup. Yanmega prime on the other hand, takes little to no skill at all. All you do is match hand sizes and go from them. Maybe you're a yanmega player so sorry if you take offense to it.

This is far from complaining. This thread is for trying to find a way to fix the game and everytime someone post something to try to fix, people rage and say get out. I say things like this because I have a deep love for this game and format after format, the game has been getting worse and I've been waiting for a good format now for a few years, since ex series was rotated. That was a long time ago.

It's hard to counter cards or plays when there is nothing out to counter them. We have no good stadiums, tools, TM's, no good options of recovery. The only thing good are a hand full of Pokemon that people use in every deck. How do you not see that as a problem?

Did you honestly just call Yanmegazone auto-pilot?

The deck that requires planning in advance, resource conservation, knowing when to mix strategies, reacting to opponent plays several turns in advance, knowing which attacker to use, knowing when to match hand sizes and when to risk playing cards out, knowing when to evolve and when not to (mewbox matchup for example) is auto-pilot?

Maybe to you, vaporeon, but for me the deck takes plenty of planning, skill, and reasoning.

You can complain about reshiram/typhlosion until you're blue in the face, because i agree just a tad that it has very few options, but yanmegazone is not the same.

I've won games with nothing but aggro kingdra prime before. Other games, i've kept my board free of any yellow cards. Other games, I do nothing BUT yellow swarm. And some games, I mix and match. Some games I even drop ERL, for example.

Any shred of weight I gave your argument about skill vs luck just went out the window. You're arguing that the Dialgachomp of this format is skill-less.

I know of no deck less forgiving of misplays, and by extension, rewarding of clever skillful play, than yanmegazone in this format. (Goth is close behind, though, when it comes to certain matchups)

TL;DR
Skill exists in decks, you've just got to play with it and not be so closed mentally.

 

[vaporeon]

Did you honestly just call Yanmegazone auto-pilot?

The deck that requires planning in advance, resource conservation, knowing when to mix strategies, reacting to opponent plays several turns in advance, knowing which attacker to use, knowing when to match hand sizes and when to risk playing cards out, knowing when to evolve and when not to (mewbox matchup for example) is auto-pilot?

Maybe to you, vaporeon, but for me the deck takes plenty of planning, skill, and reasoning.

You can complain about reshiram/typhlosion until you're blue in the face, because i agree just a tad that it has very few options, but yanmegazone is not the same.

I've won games with nothing but aggro kingdra prime before. Other games, i've kept my board free of any yellow cards. Other games, I do nothing BUT yellow swarm. And some games, I mix and match. Some games I even drop ERL, for example.

Any shred of weight I gave your argument about skill vs luck just went out the window. You're arguing that the Dialgachomp of this format is skill-less.

I know of no deck less forgiving of misplays, and by extension, rewarding of clever skillful play, than yanmegazone in this format. (Goth is close behind, though, when it comes to certain matchups)

TL;DR
Skill exists in decks, you've just got to play with it and not be so closed mentally.

I'm just talking about Yanmega, I'm not talking about Yanmega Magnezone deck.

 

[Ness]

Too many of you are falling into the endless circle of trying to restore skill in the game by removing cards. Even if this could be done, it wouldn't fix the problem! There's a reason the first thing I pointed out was why trying to ban/remove cards isn't a practical solution: it gets the game nowhere.

---------- Post added 10/26/2011 at 10:01 AM ----------

Major Magic events do a Top 8 cut, regardless of event size.

I just now realized my typo. I meant to type a smaller Top Cut. One of my ideas to save time is to play more swiss, and then cut to a smaller Top Cut. What this does is it basically replaces a round or two of Top Cut with a swiss round. This saves time because swiss rounds are shorter than Top Cut rounds.

 

[Rambo]

It annoys me when people look down on catcher like it's a pile of filth that's too "broken" and should be banned. Gust of Wind wasn't banned, and that was used in a format where Stage 2 Pokemon saw play with the same type of rare candy as there is now (i.e. Pokemon Breeder).

How is Catcher broken for a start, if both players have the option to use it? It's not like only one deck has the option to use it. The only decks that don't use it have the ability to prevent your opponent to use it (i.e. Vileplume varients).

Pokemon Catcher if anything brings balance into the game, claiming that it puts stage 2 decks at a huge disadvantage I feel is a massive understatement, as it puts both Stage 1 and Stage 2 decks at predominately the same disadvantage. If you think about it a consistent build of a Stage 2 deck takes the same amount of time to evolve to the main pokemon as a Stage 1 deck.

Stage 1 scenario: Turn 1 play the basic, Turn 2 evolve the basic
Stage 2 scenario: Turn 1 play the basic, Turn 2 evolve the basic with rare candy.

You may complain you need an extra card for stage 2's, rare candy. But that's the idea of a Stage 2, you should be evolving through the stages, which is the point of a stage 2. In the pokemon games, you don't just skip the quilava because you feel your opponent's donphan is too strong for it.

Catcher should do the same amount of damage to each deck, if they had similar starts (i.e. both have collector). If you're really worried about catcher, get multiples of the card, which is what both decks would be doing. It shouldn't affect one more than the other.

You'll probably find people complaining most about catcher are those using Stage 2 decks, whether it's a major deck like ReshiPhlosion/Gothitelle, or a gimmick deck, like Gigalith.

Even gimmick Stage 2 decks like Gigalith benefit from Catcher, as it can slow down your opponent as you have a slow set up, by dragging out one of their more "useless" pokemon.

You'll find over the ages, the games go through stages of what type of card dominated the game, recently it's been more trainer based, so trainers should be used to counter it, as they're the only type of card to match the speed of an opponent's trainer.

Apart from the opening coin flip, which I really disagree with, it would stop people whining about ZPS being too broken if it goes first, I feel the game has increased in skill from previous formats, where it was dependant on whether or not you could afford the cards (with the exception of gyarados). Luxchomp, SP variants even going back to decks like Destiny, required a lot of money if you wanted to compete with the top players that provided a similar situation. Right now the only card that seems to be like this is Yanmega, which is slowly decreasing, and Pachirisu, which is steady. ZPST and Yanmega Variants are good decks, but aren't the only tier 1 decks that can compete. Reshiphlosion is a cheap deck to make, Typhlosions can be as little as £4 and Reshirams as little as £3 and even Ninetales as little as £2.50, and there are plenty of options of other decks that could be used, depending on what cards a small spender may happen to open from their little amount of packs.

I'm not sure I agree with Steven's advice making a return, as the format back then felt a lot different than it does now. I remember back then, although it was more around the late ex era than the nidoqueen/medicham era, where hands were more clumped, and it was harder to get rid of cards than it is now, like junk arm. You'll find hand sizes are a lot smaller now than they were on previous formats because of similar reasons.

I think the addition of cards like Catcher have improved the skill requirements of the game, as the player has to think more strategically, rather than following a set pre-planned game strategy, that they have formulated. More playtesting will have to be done to counter new cards coming out, that will improve league attendance, and overall increase the skill level of the game.

But yeah, that's just my thoughts..

 

[ajwalker]

Also, the way I see it. QUIT COMPLAINING. As I stated before, if you do not like this game, or anything about this game. Quit playing. Complaining on here that certain cards are 'to good' and 'should be banned' is just dumb. They're good and rare because that's how card games work. 9/10 the best cards are the rare ones. And the best cards get played. Play them, counter them, or quit.

I confess I started playing the TCG at the release of Diamond and Pearl (Empoleon theme deck was the first one I ever bought) so I don't have the wealth of playing/card history so many of you have.

However, I find it difficult to stomach how some people seem to want to shut down nothing more than discussion and debate and label it complaining. I see nothing wrong with any thing in this discussion/debate that should be construed as "complaining" IT'S A DISCUSSION, pure and simple.

You obviously have your opinion about things and others have their own, you stating your opinion doesn't make it "complaining" any more than any other poster stating theirs. Has the level of discussion fallen so far that any expression of a difference of opinion should be attacked and silenced? What country is this again?

It isn't "dumb" for anyone to state their opinion, even if it doesn't agree with yours or even the majority, it's still a valid opinion that deserves to be respected and not attacked. If you don't agree with it, fine, offer counter arguments or whatever, but there is no need to attack the person or their opinion.

And it is juvenile to say that because someone doesn't agree with your opinion you should try and stifle them by saying they should "quit playing."

I loathe Pokemon Catcher, I think it is the dumbest thing and worse card to have been introduced into this particular format, it makes me wonder if TCPi did any testing before they released it. If I had been playing during the time of Gust of Wind, I probably would have said the same thing back then. But you know what? THAT'S MY OPINION.

On the other hand, I love Pokemon and because I think Catcher is stupid, doesn't mean I should "quit playing" because I have a right to my opinion and am expressing it respectfully in the appropriate place - in a thread about restoring skill to the game. I'm not stopping random people on the street and "complaining", I'm talking among fellow players who obviously love the game as well. And we should be able to gather, discuss, debate and even disagree with each other while discussing the game we all love in a RESPECTFUL manner.

What's your problem with that?

---------- Post added 10/26/2011 at 07:53 PM ----------

One of the best things you can do to promote skill (and originality) is not post deck lists online. Make your own decks. When everyone starts copying lists online, that entire area of skill (deck building) is now removed from the game.

Maybe people are just looking for the easy way out?

I admire the players who give significant thought to deck construction, that's an art form I'm hoping I'm getting better at :wink: But I agree, it's way to easy to copy a deck list and run it as is and not even "tweak it" to individual play style.

I can see how that lowers the overall quality or individuality of the game. It gets stale really quickly. And having people have to "think through" their own deck construction instead of copying it from the net would help a great deal.

 

[vaporeon]

Thats how I feel about netdecking for the most part. If I can make a deck, win with it and play them in tournaments with my rating on the line, then can other people.

 

[GinoLombardi21]

If Pokemon wasn't luck based for the past three years I would have won Nationals 09', 10', and 11'.
-Just Saying

 

[cabd]

If Pokemon wasn't luck based for the past three years I would have won Nationals 09', 10', and 11'.
-Just Saying

You, and everyone else who played that day. I know you're a big name player, but you're essentially saying that the wins by our National champs are worthless. Not cool.

 

[vaporeon]

Luck should be part of every game but it should not be the deciding factor. Luck should play a very little part of the game.