Rotation announced!
- Thread starter immewnity
- Start date
2 Formats. hahahahahah
More options. hahahahaha
That BW-on extended is so good a format. hahahahaha You can choose between T2 Accelgore/Goth lockdown or T2 200 with genesect. Man they are giving me so many new possibilities.
This game cant be good with this starting rule. Still the one who goes first has always the 75% chance to win, no matter which deck you are using. And if you go first, its your game to lose, not his game to win.
This game needs balanced cards, not new formats. (no flipping, no free retreat starters, more pokemon that do things only when they will be benced or evolved, no t2 200dmg basics and more supporters so that every deck wont play the same 30 cards)
More options. hahahahaha
That BW-on extended is so good a format. hahahahaha You can choose between T2 Accelgore/Goth lockdown or T2 200 with genesect. Man they are giving me so many new possibilities.
This game cant be good with this starting rule. Still the one who goes first has always the 75% chance to win, no matter which deck you are using. And if you go first, its your game to lose, not his game to win.
This game needs balanced cards, not new formats. (no flipping, no free retreat starters, more pokemon that do things only when they will be benced or evolved, no t2 200dmg basics and more supporters so that every deck wont play the same 30 cards)
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
Multiple Formats worosfor Magic and WOW, why cant it work for pokemon? Having 2 formats allows different tournaments to use different formats and not get stall.
How can you possibly know anything about a format being introduced 13 months from now when all they said was there's gonna be a new BW-on format? You have NO way of knowing what that formats going to be yet. For all we know EXs and pokemon catcher could be banned in that format.
Aside from your "statistic" no arguement, the first turn rules are awful. But there is a chance they change with XY.
Otaku
Active Member
I have to take issue with this.
The first turn rules were set and decided... and then the cards were made. Nothing we have now was either designed or selected for re-release under previous rule sets. Even if the rules changes were "last minute", how many of the most prominent cards are from the first two or three sets? I really doubt that they designed two years worth of releases ahead of schedule, locked them in, and then decided to adopt the current first turn rules.
It then stands to reason then that the problem is not the first turn rules, the problem is the intentional direction of the game or in executing card design. Some may ask "What's the difference?" but it is important to know what is wrong so that we can ask for the proper fixes. We don't know if the current rules work because so many contemporary cards are flat out unbalanced. Adopting some older rules would help a little, but mostly it would just reduce the likelihood of being donked... which is a problem for just about any deck not relying exclusively on Pokémon-EX.
Just imagine if instead of creating more complicated rules (and the reason we were given for the last rules change was simplification) the game designers stepped up to the plate and stopped designing Pokémon, Trainers, and Energy - yes, all three major card types - that abuse the rules so badly. Why do the best Pokémon-EX dominate? Because they have been designed for early game advantage while retaining a strong presence afterwards. This leaves little time for Pokémon and strategies that need all of three turns to set-up. There is also the seeming lack of effort (or at least serious effort) on making Evolution a "neutral" mechanic and not a punishment for Evolutions.
TL;DR: The card's were designed with these rules in mind... ergo the problem isn't the rules it is the design of the cards.
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
I don't think we need to rules to be immensely complicated. Keep the same rules with 1 amendment: the player who goes first deals no damage from attacks. They can still have the advantage of first evolution and setup but guarantees both players get a turn before the game ends. I don't know the old rules because ive only played under the BW rules so these rules may very well be better then previous years but Donks are not fun for anybody(ill take one if it arises, but would prefer to play an actual game) and not dealing damage if you go first prevents donks from ever happening. I think that would be good for the game.
Otaku
Active Member
Unfortunately, that isn't simple. There have been many revisions to the first turn rules, and they seem to have been reversed: the rules pertaining just to the first turn of the game are now the same as they were when the game began. The differences we used to have were things like no Trainers first turn, no Supporters first turn, possibly only Supporters first turn, etc. Even I lost track years ago. At one time you may have also had to skip your opening draw as well.
That just seems a bit much for the youngest, and honestly it doesn't solve the problem. As a relevant counter-example, in Yu-Gi-Oh you cannot attack your opponent if it is the first overall turn of the game; this is for the obvious reason that you start the game with no Monsters, Spells, or Traps in play and only a select few can be activated from hand. In Yu-Gi-Oh the primary win mechanic is depleting your opponent's "Life Points" through attacking with monsters.
The rule didn't stop First Turn Kill; FTK decks just win without attacking (either through effects that do damage without attacking or alternate win conditions). Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't use set rotation but Ban Lists and... FTKs still pop up periodically because card research and development still likes to use big, splashy effects and is bad at balancing them out. Wait! There's more; more common than FTKs decks are OTK decks... One Turn Kill. The problem wasn't solved just transformed by that rule. Some of their formats were all about OTK decks.
So I maintain; the best bet is to stop implementing the card design choices that make this an issue. I want balance; that means that whatever role a Pokémon plays in a deck it does it equally as well regardless of Stage. There will be different pros and cons for each Stage, and equal doesn't necessarily mean every Stage will be equally proficient (Stage 2 Pokémon just can't function as your opening Basic Pokémon). This comes by recognizing certain things (damaging attacks, potent effects) shouldn't be available those first few turns, giving time for the fastest decks at least to set-up.
TL;DR: I don't think a rule change will solve the problem so much as change it. We've had formats in the past all about the T2 OHKO; you had a better chance of fighting back, but they were much more abundant donks. Plus the game is designed for "donks" to prevent certain abuses, like extremely low Pokémon decks (or at least balance out the benfits provided by such builds).
if it is, lets all play 4 fast ticket :3
Ugh, Lets make it the statistical fact. Lets put an extra corner to match slip where players have to cross if they went first. The last 2 years when Ive been in tournaments (organizer or player) I ve asked if someone won AND if he/she started the game, and actually 75% is a very MILD guess.
I dont know how much you have been paying attention to this. But I think that the starting rule together with basic decks is the reason this game hasnt really skill based outside of Juniors. bo1 format in a game like this produces 7-0 and 8-0 players based on who has started the game. A player in a big tournament cant make the cut if he doesnt go first in any of the games.
I remember playtesting for the 2011 worlds and I played 15 games, where all 15 times the starting player won. Also this is how my gf made it to worlds from LCQ. She always went first in every game one and were able to win the games. And my gf vs some of the best J players and some best US players. Who should have won if this were a skill game?? Some girl who gets the deck 10 hours before the tournament and cant sleep well the last night before? Sure...
Envoyofduels
New Member
I actually keep track in my records of who goes 1st and I would have to say that without looking I would say 60-80 percent is a good number.
While I don't doubt that going first every game played a significant role, if I were your girlfriend reading this, I'd be pretty unhappy with you.
Making it through the LCQ is definitely impressive, and doing it sleep-deprived while still learning a deck? Sounds like she's a sleeper we may see at another Worlds in the future, not just "some girl." I don't like the first-turn rules either, but my personal anecdata doesn't suggest they're as broken as all that. (I wonder if Pokemon has data on this from PTCGO aggregate match results?) It would be interesting to see what the metagame looked like if T1 wins going first weren't a possibility, though. Would deckbuilding be more conservative? Would setup cards be played more? Even if this isn't the alternate format Pokemon gives us in 2015, it would be fun to play in a tournament or series of tournaments based on different T1 rules to see just how different it would be.
tomoyosfan1
Member
Gold is still in, so you can play any Pokémon Catcher next year, due to the previous print rule. You don't need to play only gold Catchers.
This makes me think of something interesting....
Why is it that most legendaries (rather, the really, really powerful ones) are banned from the video game, but seem to be encouraged in the card game?
Otaku
Active Member
My answer will sound harsh but I blame it on a game design failure; Legendary Pokémon typically have phenomenal power, with Base Stat totals higher than many other Pokémon and access to special "goodies". The video games don't really balance this out for competitive play, leading to them needing to be banned.
This may be why they are encouraged in the TCG; theoretically they can be balanced out here and thus this is the only tournament environment where most can be used. Personally, as we have the mutual constraints of "designing a balanced game" and "featuring Legendary Pokémon", I favor seeking a means of Legendary Pokémon being "special" but also being "balanced".
CyberTails
New Member
For me, the only cards lost for me this format are Communication, Revive and Energy Retrieval as I run those in my Zoroark Deck, but as soon as I can, I'll buy 4 Ultra Balls and Superior Energy Retrievals, as for a Replacement for Revive, I'll find something
Charranitar
Member
Anyone who thinks donks are a problem has no idea what they're talking about. It's just not very probable that a player will donk another player.
In 127 tournament games this season I wasn't donked a single time. I donked one opponent, Quad Sigilyph vs Eels matchup.
The decks I broke down were as follows:
7 Blastoise
3 Darkrai (DMT, Darkrai/Mewtwo, Darkrai/Accelgor/Sigilyph/Mew)
2 Big Basics (Tornadus EX/Landorus EX/Mewtwo EX/Sigilyph/Meloetta)
1 Darkrai/Garbodor
1 Rayquaza/Eelektrik
1 Ho-Oh/Mewtwo/Terrakion
1 Chandelure/Darkrai
1 Quad Sigilyph
1 Kyurem/Deoxys EX
1 Landorus/Lugia EX/Deoxys EX
1 Gothitelle/Accelgor
1 Cinccino/Virizion/Munna/Shaymin EX
1 Sableye/Garbodor
I think that's a pretty wide variety of decks so if donking was a real
Issue it would have come up more...not to mention the math doesn't support it either.
In 127 tournament games this season I wasn't donked a single time. I donked one opponent, Quad Sigilyph vs Eels matchup.
The decks I broke down were as follows:
7 Blastoise
3 Darkrai (DMT, Darkrai/Mewtwo, Darkrai/Accelgor/Sigilyph/Mew)
2 Big Basics (Tornadus EX/Landorus EX/Mewtwo EX/Sigilyph/Meloetta)
1 Darkrai/Garbodor
1 Rayquaza/Eelektrik
1 Ho-Oh/Mewtwo/Terrakion
1 Chandelure/Darkrai
1 Quad Sigilyph
1 Kyurem/Deoxys EX
1 Landorus/Lugia EX/Deoxys EX
1 Gothitelle/Accelgor
1 Cinccino/Virizion/Munna/Shaymin EX
1 Sableye/Garbodor
I think that's a pretty wide variety of decks so if donking was a real
Issue it would have come up more...not to mention the math doesn't support it either.
That depends entirely on the decks you play. One omission in your list of decks is Klinklang (unless I misunderstood your list). I personally play it and out of 30 or so games (between 2 BRs, Nationals, and a few rounds at league) I've been donked twice. This is a significantly greater ratio than what your testing demonstrated.
Donks are normally only a problem for people who experience them (I missed Top Cut at Nationals because of one, hence I think they're a problem :wink
.Charranitar
Member
I missed top cut in 2012 on a donk. That's the only time I've been donked.
The thing about donks is that you need to go 2nd, start only one Pokemon (this puts most decks low enough already of a probability not to get donked in a given game), and you need to be playing against a deck with donk capability. Pas that your opponent still needs to hit all the cards for the donk.
The thing about donks is that you need to go 2nd, start only one Pokemon (this puts most decks low enough already of a probability not to get donked in a given game), and you need to be playing against a deck with donk capability. Pas that your opponent still needs to hit all the cards for the donk.