Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Rotation

Pikajew1213

Pikajew1213

New Member
Simple question
I am not saying there will be a rotation I am only looking at the possibility of it and specifically the time it may occur

Do you guys think it is possible and Pokemon will decide it best to have a mid season rotation as they did last year giving us a five set format before nationals
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The early rotation last year wasn't done for fun, it was done because BW rules + old cards = a horribly broken format. It was like an emergency rotation.

It wasn't something that was done lightly, and I don't think they would want to repeat it in a hurry.
 
baby mario said:
The early rotation last year wasn't done for fun, it was done because BW rules + old cards = a horribly broken format. It was like an emergency rotation.

It wasn't something that was done lightly, and I don't think they would want to repeat it in a hurry.
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Exactly what I already told you... They will not rotate early...


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Just out of curiosity, what were some examples of old rules + new cards being broken? I didn't start playing until BW on so im not too familiar with the old rules
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Calm_Lava said:
Just out of curiosity, what were some examples of old rules + new cards being broken? I didn't start playing until BW on so im not too familiar with the old rules
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To elaborate on Saybleye, T1 TRAINERS and supporters allowed people to knock out an opponent's entire field with a combination of things such as Crobat G, poketurn, pokeblower, junk arm, seeker and Saybleye's attack-Overconfident. Saybleye's poke body let you automatically go first so this deck would aim to donk (it really had to donk or it would lose).
 
I wonder in an unlimited format game who would go first SF sableye or the opponent holding DW first ticket?, my guess is it would continue as a coin flip, but would like to hear what you guys think.
 
It certainly is possible, but unlikely. I wouldn't mind an early rotation that much though.
 
hiimjimmeh said:
I wonder in an unlimited format game who would go first SF sableye or the opponent holding DW first ticket?, my guess is it would continue as a coin flip, but would like to hear what you guys think.
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I think it'd be a coin flip in that case. It doesn't sound much different from when both people opened with Sableye back then, and makes the most sense to me.
 
Sableye's text:

If Sableye is your Active Pokémon at the beginning of the game, you go first. (If each player's Active Pokémon has the Overeager Poké-Body, this power does nothing.)
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First Ticket's text:

First Ticket – Trainer

First Ticket may only be played to determine who goes first. If you play First Ticket, you go first.

If your opponent also plays First Ticket, play Rock-Paper-Scissors to determine who goes first.

You may play as many Trainer cards as you like during your turn (before your attack).
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Hmmm.....

Considering the Rayquaza/Sceptile and Muk/zero retreat situation rulings, effects which zero out a cost are unaffected by cards which increase that cost. In that sense those effects are continuous and permanent, dominating temporary changes in game state. You can 'nudge' the attack cost up, but that 'nudge' doesn't keep happening. Zero -> nudge -> zero = zero.

In this situation, a Poke-body is a continuous always-active effect whereas trainers cause an effect then disappear. The trainer might 'nudge' their initiative when the effect is applied, but Sableye's poke-body dominates as it is a continuous effect. Understanding this situation requires interpreting the meaning of the phrase "goes first" in the context of a change of game state. Sableye's effect -> First ticket's nudge -> Sableye's effect = Sableye wins.

To help illustrate what I'm arguing, consider re-phrasing Sableye's text by integrating the fundamental nature of what poke-bodys are continuous effects:

A Poké-Body's effect is one that is in effect regardless. The player does not need to announce the use of a Poké-Body, since it is always active. In essence, a Poké-Power's effect is not always active, while a Poké-Body's effect is.
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As long as Sableye is your Active Pokémon at the beginning of the game, you go first. (If each player's Active Pokémon has the Overeager Poké-Body, this power does nothing.)
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Is this an abstraction? No, that's how bodies work. Whatever the resolution, flipping coins would randomise a non-random situation. RPS couldn't happen because the "if your opponent also plays First Ticket" is not fulfilled, it's a Sableye!

The only other (and perhaps valid) alternative is to rule the game in a broken game state. The game can't decide itself and hence cannot continue without enforcing ungrounded randomness or bias. Which player is responsible for this? The First Ticket player. Either rule a game loss to the First Ticket player (they could see the active Sableye and took action to break game state), this is what would happen in Yu-gi-oh. Nice option: retract the game state by ruling the First Ticket play illegit (as if they had attached more than one basic energy), returning the First Ticket to their hand and giving the Sableye player control. No rational player would play First Ticket with the knowledge it would create a broken game state, so they were acting out of naivity of rulings not deceit.

Very interested to see how this is ruled by Team Compendium. My bet is that First Ticket is a legitimate play but Sableye dominates. Can you play cards for zero effect? Yes and no. You can play catcher when your opponent has identical pokemon in play, that doesn't change game state.
 
Magic_Umbreon said:
The only other (and perhaps valid) alternative is to rule the game in a broken game state. The game can't decide itself and hence cannot continue without enforcing ungrounded randomness or bias. Which player is responsible for this? The First Ticket player. Either rule a game loss to the First Ticket player (they could see the active Sableye and took action to break game state), this is what would happen in Yu-gi-oh. Nice option: retract the game state by ruling the First Ticket play illegit (as if they had attached more than one basic energy), returning the First Ticket to their hand and giving the Sableye player control. No rational player would play First Ticket with the knowledge it would create a broken game state, so they were acting out of naivity of rulings not deceit.
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This is the only part I had a problem with. First Ticket is to be played when you go to determine who will be going first (aka when a coin flip would normally occur) that is before basics are flipped. Therefore you cannot know if your opponent has a sableye and, as a result, cannot be penalized for it.

Now as for which would win, I'm going with the coin flip theory as nothing else makes sense. Trainers do their effect, then go away. Bodies are always there (as you said) but the trainers action cannot be completed so, the trainer won't just go away.
 
Time for Pain said:
This is the only part I had a problem with. First Ticket is to be played when you go to determine who will be going first (aka when a coin flip would normally occur) that is before basics are flipped. Therefore you cannot know if your opponent has a sableye and, as a result, cannot be penalized for it.
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You're right, I confused the order. So the order of events is:

  1. Shuffle and mulligan until you both have a basic
  2. Play the basics facedown
  3. Lay prizes
  4. Opportunity to play First-ticket
  5. Coin-flip if no First-ticket was played
  6. Flip basics
  7. Proceed to turn one with the player who won the initiative

Under this strict order of events, poke-bodys are activated before the first turn... otherwise the first turn would occur without influence of the poke-body whatsoever! There is a sort of invisible "During a player's turn.." clause before all other poke-bodies it would seem?

You're right about the non-penalty, if the basics are facedown at that point then of course no penalty.

Pokemon is rife with contradictions such as those attacks that can be used whilst a Pokemon is asleep! Following the rules, that text should never get 'examined' by the game state, you can't declare the attack to implement the text of being able to use it, but obviously you actually can, it's a rule bender.

Now as for which would win, I'm going with the coin flip theory as nothing else makes sense. Trainers do their effect, then go away. Bodies are always there (as you said) but the trainers action cannot be completed so, the trainer won't just go away.
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The coin flip does not make sense, coin flips can't appear from nowhere. Is First-ticket even in play by the time Sableye is flipped according to my order of events?

Basically I'm arguing that the change in who goes first is an "effect" on the game state (or player) that pushes the initiative and so can get pushed back by a subsequent effect, it's simply phrased as if it were a permanent change for clarity. Formally:

"Place an initiative counter on the player who used First Ticket, players with an initiative counter go first"

And Sableye:

"Move the initiative counter to the player that controls Sableye"

And the coin flip that precedes Sableye's effect (as it is face-down) places an initiative counter, but this never occurs in the first ticket case.
 
Durant Eats Children said:
To elaborate on Saybleye, T1 TRAINERS and supporters allowed people to knock out an opponent's entire field with a combination of things such as Crobat G, poketurn, pokeblower, junk arm, seeker and Saybleye's attack-Overconfident. Saybleye's poke body let you automatically go first so this deck would aim to donk (it really had to donk or it would lose).
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Yes but T1 trainers were allowed prior to the rule change which was the original question
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Here is an example of why I think a rotation is coming and why the format will be BW-on:



For a couple months now the Walmart here in Sandusky, Ohio has been selling this box of different sets of cards. I've seen platinum, hgss, unleashed, undaunted, triumphant, and Call of Legends. If you buy a pack out of this box it is only $3.33.

My thought is that why would a distributor be trying to sell off the old packs?

Maybe the distributor got a sweet bulk buy and these packs just happened to be the ones included in the purchase.

Ultimately someone decided to sell off tons of packs to a reseller in order to make money on the overstock. Maybe it's just another distributor/repackager entering into the game. ( I should have checked to see who the company was. I'll check next time I'm there.)

It just seems odd that those boxes mostly contain Platinum-Call of Legends. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
 
keniselvis said:
Here is an example of why I think a rotation is coming and why the format will be BW-on:



For a couple months now the Walmart here in Sandusky, Ohio has been selling this box of different sets of cards. I've seen platinum, hgss, unleashed, undaunted, triumphant, and Call of Legends. If you buy a pack out of this box it is only $3.33.

My thought is that why would a distributor be trying to sell off the old packs?

Maybe the distributor got a sweet bulk buy and these packs just happened to be the ones included in the purchase.

Ultimately someone decided to sell off tons of packs to a reseller in order to make money on the overstock. Maybe it's just another distributor/repackager entering into the game. ( I should have checked to see who the company was. I'll check next time I'm there.)

It just seems odd that those boxes mostly contain Platinum-Call of Legends. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
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We have random repacks in MI from the Fairfield Co. all the time. I'm 99% certain it has nothing to do with rotation, since I doubt anybody but the PTO's and TPCi know what rotation will be.


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Rotation usually happens September 1st, However Last year it was July 1st to HGSS on due to many "broken combinations". That and Japan was already doing HGSS on
 
My guess is it'll happen after the just-released-in-Japan set, as that is technically still considered part of Black and White. The set after that will be BW2, giving them a full series +1, as had been the case for HGSS-on last rotation. The fact that the last rotation was early, but still had a full series plus 1 also leads me to believe it might even be BW2-2 that sees us rotate
EDIT: As for the First Ticket-Sableye SF debate, I think it would be like this:
1. Pokémon are face-down
2. Player with First Ticket shows it to opponent, and as such he is declared the first player
3. Both players flip over their Pokémon
4. Player with Sableye SF active then has his Poké-Body activate, allowing him to go first

So while both First Ticket and Sableye SF have an effect, because Sableye takes place after First ticket, Sableye trumps it.
 
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