Speed Charizard (MD-on)

[burnpsy]

Note: This is for my baby brother, who is 7. He's in Juniors, of course. This is also for next season meaning it's MD-on.

Charizard (60)

Pokémon (18)

4-2-4 Charizard [AR-AR-AR]
3-3 Ninetales [PL#SH6-GS]
2 Uxie [LA]

Trainers (23)

Trainers (20)

1 Luxury Ball
4 Poké Drawer +
4 Pokédex HANDY910is
3 Pokémon Communication
3 Rare Candy
3 Super Scoop Up
2 Warp Point

Tools (3)

3 Expert Belt

Supporters (6)

1 Fisherman
3 Pokémon Collector
2 Professor Oak's New Theory

Stadiums (3)

3 Broken Time-Space

Energy (10)

10 :fire: Energy

Strategy

Charmander + Fire Energy + Rare Candy + Charizard + 5 Basic :fire: Pokemon = T2 80. Everything else simply supports that.

 

[freshsenior]

get something to tech against umbreon ud or you are screwed

 

[burnpsy]

get something to tech against umbreon ud or you are screwed

Unless it suddenly becomes popular in Juniors, it's not a problem. Also, the following things in the deck can damage Umbreon:

Charmander (2 energy, 5HKO, gets 2HKO'd)
Charmeleon (2-3 energy for a 2HKO at best, gets 3HKO'd)
Cyndaquil (8HKO with 1 energy, 4HKO with 2 energy, gets 2HKO'd)
Quilava (2 energy for a 3HKO, 3 energy for a 2HKO, gets 3HKO'd)
Vulpix (8HKO with 1 energy, 3HKO with 2 energy plus 3 in hand, gets 2HKO'd)

Of these, Charmeleon and Quilava unquestionably kill it before Umbreon can do the same, even if Umbreon tries upping the damage - it won't allow survival unless it deals all 80 in one go (assuming Charmeleon/Quilava hit Umbreon first as opposed to vice-versa - though Umbreon hitting first will still lose without extra damage). So, where's the extra 50 coming from? As I'd likely use Typhlosion to power those guys up, it needs an extra 40. With Expert Belt on their Pokemon, they need only an extra 20. However, this won't be possible without Crobat G, Buck's Training, Metagross SV, Special Dark Energy or PlusPower. I'd honestly KO Metagross before getting to Umbreon if it weren't for the fact that a belted Quilava/Charmeleon OHKOs Umbreon under those circumstances. If it were to use the others, they would not be able to consistently do it - especially since that extra 20 they needed became an extra 40 because of a Belt (the exception being Special Dark Energy, but all I have to say to that is "good luck drawing it", and they'd need more than one to OHKO anyways.

Either way, Umbreon will likely not be popular, so it's not an issue. If it does, then I will tell my brother to do the above before we go to any POP events.

 

[Denjin Hadou]

So... what problems are you seeing that you might think need attention? Other than that, it looks like a fine Juniors deck to me.

 

[burnpsy]

So... what problems are you seeing that you might think need attention? Other than that, it looks like a fine Juniors deck to me.

I thought there wasn't really much of an issue - but I've thought that with many other decks that I've made. I mainly made this thread to check.

Thanks for helping me verify that there are no obvious, glaring issues that I missed.

 

[Denjin Hadou]

I guess if you can add another Expert Belt or tech in a Fisherman/Palmer's Contribution, it might do something for the deck.

Ah, but this's a speed deck. Sorry about that, I usually keep an eye on the endgame whenever I look through a decklist.

 

[burnpsy]

I guess if you can add another Expert Belt or tech in a Fisherman/Palmer's Contribution, it might do something for the deck.

Ah, but this's a speed deck. Sorry about that, I usually keep an eye on the endgame whenever I look through a decklist.

The endgame IS an important part of any game, I know. I've actually tried Palmer's and Fisherman in here for that very reason. As I expected to happen with Palmer's, since many other decks ended up with the same reaction, Palmer's was only needed once every 40 games or so, give or take (which is more than some other decks I've built, testing Palmer's for 100+ matches and never using it once).It's only helpful when my 'Zards are all gone, but losing all of the 'Zards even for a single turn (as they go to the deck, it's unlikely to pull them out instantly without a Supporter for the turn) can cause a loss of the two prizes left after the 4 Charizards went down - and that's assuming all they KO'd were the 4 Charizard - Sableye will most likely be gone by then too, meaning that one must get a new Charizard out quickly before the opponent takes prize 6. Fisherman could work. I just instinctively didn't have it in there after drawing it early game so often. While this is a Speed Deck, games don't always end up ending that fast.

However, all of those things you suggested merit another test. How would you suggest fitting them in here to try?

 

[Barkjon]

Reading the above post, you want Palmers/Fisherman in there?

First off, how many Fishermen? I'm guessing 1 or 2.

I'd take out a few energies for them - 16 is a big amount, even for a 'Zard deck.

 

[iDonkedYou]

Put some dark energy, so you can T1 if possible with Sableye.

 

[freshsenior]

Unless it suddenly becomes popular in Juniors, it's not a problem. Also, the following things in the deck can damage Umbreon:

Charmander (2 energy, 5HKO, gets 2HKO'd)
Charmeleon (2-3 energy for a 2HKO at best, gets 3HKO'd)
Cyndaquil (8HKO with 1 energy, 4HKO with 2 energy, gets 2HKO'd)
Quilava (2 energy for a 3HKO, 3 energy for a 2HKO, gets 3HKO'd)
Vulpix (8HKO with 1 energy, 3HKO with 2 energy plus 3 in hand, gets 2HKO'd)

Of these, Charmeleon and Quilava unquestionably kill it before Umbreon can do the same, even if Umbreon tries upping the damage - it won't allow survival unless it deals all 80 in one go (assuming Charmeleon/Quilava hit Umbreon first as opposed to vice-versa - though Umbreon hitting first will still lose without extra damage). So, where's the extra 50 coming from? As I'd likely use Typhlosion to power those guys up, it needs an extra 40. With Expert Belt on their Pokemon, they need only an extra 20. However, this won't be possible without Crobat G, Buck's Training, Metagross SV, Special Dark Energy or PlusPower. I'd honestly KO Metagross before getting to Umbreon if it weren't for the fact that a belted Quilava/Charmeleon OHKOs Umbreon under those circumstances. If it were to use the others, they would not be able to consistently do it - especially since that extra 20 they needed became an extra 40 because of a Belt (the exception being Special Dark Energy, but all I have to say to that is "good luck drawing it", and they'd need more than one to OHKO anyways.

Either way, Umbreon will likely not be popular, so it's not an issue. If it does, then I will tell my brother to do the above before we go to any POP events.

That is true, umbreon might not play any popularity, but it could be because it could be a great tech in several decks. If you are set up already and umbreon attacks, you are forced to set up another stage 1 or 2 pokemon. Plus you will ahve to 1hko it or else it will retreat and use its main to ko your charged up pokemon, then after words, they will just repeat. I'm just saying, because leafeon ud could be viable for next format, using various eeveelutions to support it.

 

[burnpsy]

Reading the above post, you want Palmers/Fisherman in there?

First off, how many Fishermen? I'm guessing 1 or 2.

I'd take out a few energies for them - 16 is a big amount, even for a 'Zard deck.

You have a point there. It's just that haveing 14 :fire: Energy guarantees that there's 1 in every 4.28 cards, making sure I have one to use for Ninetales next turn. I'll test a Fisherman over one - two may clog.

Put some dark energy, so you can T1 if possible with Sableye.

Not really necessary. The Dark energy will get in the way of a Charizard setup, and likely won't be drawn when needed.

That is true, umbreon might not play any popularity, but it could be because it could be a great tech in several decks. If you are set up already and umbreon attacks, you are forced to set up another stage 1 or 2 pokemon. Plus you will ahve to 1hko it or else it will retreat and use its main to ko your charged up pokemon, then after words, they will just repeat. I'm just saying, because leafeon ud could be viable for next format, using various eeveelutions to support it.

You're forgetting - Leafeon LV.X has a similar effect to Leafeon UD, but as a PokePower.

Everyone hypes the Eeveelutions. They usually don't work out.

 

[freshsenior]

You have a point there. It's just that haveing 14 :fire: Energy guarantees that there's 1 in every 4.28 cards, making sure I have one to use for Ninetales next turn. I'll test a Fisherman over one - two may clog.



Not really necessary. The Dark energy will get in the way of a Charizard setup, and likely won't be drawn when needed.



You're forgetting - Leafeon LV.X has a similar effect to Leafeon UD, but as a PokePower.

Everyone hypes the Eeveelutions. They usually don't work out.

Leafeon lvx lets you play another energy card each turn. Leafeon ud does 50 for each status the defending pokemon has for :colorless:. Combined with roserade attach a rainbow thats 100+poison. the deck does fine at the moment.

 

[burnpsy]

Leafeon lvx lets you play another energy card each turn. Leafeon ud does 50 for each status the defending pokemon has for :colorless:. Combined with roserade attach a rainbow thats 100+poison. the deck does fine at the moment.

As far as that goes, Charizard already OHKOs Leafeon and Roserade.

Not only would using Umbreon compromise consistency, but Warp Point removes the effect.

Also, I think you need to read this:

Chiming in with a rating or evaluation like these:

* This still loses to <deck name here>.
* This is not a tier 1 deck.
* This deck is a 9 out of 10.

is considered SPAM in a deck help and strategy forum.

The bolded is what everything you've said amounts to.

 

[waynegg]

As far as that goes, Charizard already OHKOs Leafeon and Roserade.

Well, Charizard is slower to set up (Stage 1 vs stage 2), slower to power up ( 1 Energy vs 3 Energy), hits for less damage, takes longer to recover after KO, and there are a couple of very simple ways that fit nicely into a Leafeon (and other Grass type) deck which eliminate their Weakness. With Fire decks guaranteed to be common at the beginning of the season (Ninetales Engine) you can rest assured that anyone running a Grass deck will cover their Weakness.

Also, If you're really wanting to cll it a speed deck, you are going to need to up the Uxie for consistency, drop a lot of supporters and replace them with Dusk Ball, Pokedex Handy910is, Poke Radar, Unown R, Poke Drawer, etc. to maximize thinning your deck and getting what you need to be "Speed". And max the Rare Candy and BTS, to improve consistency. You could also lose 3-4 Energy.

 

[burnpsy]

Well, Charizard is slower to set up (Stage 1 vs stage 2), slower to power up ( 1 Energy vs 3 Energy), hits for less damage, takes longer to recover after KO, and there are a couple of very simple ways that fit nicely into a Leafeon (and other Grass type) deck which eliminate their Weakness. With Fire decks guaranteed to be common at the beginning of the season (Ninetales Engine) you can rest assured that anyone running a Grass deck will cover their Weakness.

Belted Charizard with 1 Energy and 2 Fire types on bench will always OHKO Leafeon RR. OHKOing Roserade UL requires no Fire Pokemon on the bench, simply a Belted Charizard with a single Fire Energy. Also, this deck is running enough support to have a turn 2 Charizard.

What are you talking about?

Also, If you're really wanting to cll it a speed deck, you are going to need to up the Uxie for consistency, drop a lot of supporters and replace them with Dusk Ball, Pokedex Handy910is, Poke Radar, Unown R, Poke Drawer, etc. to maximize thinning your deck and getting what you need to be "Speed". And max the Rare Candy and BTS, to improve consistency. You could also lose 3-4 Energy.

I called it a speed deck because it was just that during testing - speedy. Increasing the Uxie count can cause problems, Dusk Ball and PokeRadar are unreliable, Pokedex and PokeDrawer aren't really needed, Unown R can cause horrible starts, and 3 BTS + 4 Candy is enough - I don't need a 4th BTS in here. The energy count is also OK - I've tried lowering it before, not pretty.

What is "Speed" if not a Turn 2 setup? Those changes only leave the deck more vulnerable.

 

[Denjin Hadou]

Wayne's talking about powering up Charizard for Burning Tail.

 

[burnpsy]

Wayne's talking about powering up Charizard for Burning Tail.

Oh. That really doesn't matter against a Leafeon + Roserade deck. As I explained, Charizard can handle them with Fire Wing.

 

[waynegg]

Umbreon
Metapod

With everyone expecting to see a fair share of fire, please explain how Charizard is going to OHKO like you say with Fire Wing, or do you just expect the rest of the competition to lay over and OMG Chawizawd!

I thought you seriously wanted help with your deck, not to just ignore any suggestions someone gives you. A speed deck is defined by heavy Trainers, Low Energy, minimal Supporters, and being able to get a full set up 90% or more of the time by turn 2, which the build you have doesn't do. The Trainer suggestions I made along with the Pokemon (Uxie and Unown R) will give you the that.

If you aren't comfortable playing that strategy, fine. But don't outright dismiss it when you haven't even given it a shot. Can you get a horrible lone Unown start? Sure. Is it likely? No.

 

[freshsenior]

As far as that goes, Charizard already OHKOs Leafeon and Roserade.

Not only would using Umbreon compromise consistency, but Warp Point removes the effect.

Also, I think you need to read this:



The bolded is what everything you've said amounts to. Unless you're intending to either state a relevant problem, or have a fix to that which is more reliable than the solution I mentioned immediately after your first post in this thread (without messing with consistency, of course), I suggest you stop posting in this thread.

First off, I am not spamming i am giving you a suggestion, i didn't say you would lose to a deck, i said you might lose to an umbreon. All i was suggesting is you find something to counter it, your choice, its your brother's deck not mine.

I just gave an example of a deck that might run umbreon, you were the one to start this brouhaha,

I like the warp point idea and that would help out a lot. Charizard has quite a big retreat cost, so you will need quite a bit when ppl come with crobats and all these other status effect decks.

 

[AyameHikaru]

If you want it to be speedy, drop the Typholsion line, which rarely even gets up by T3. As you said, you really don't need Charizard's second attack, it's the first you focus on.

-2-1-2 Typhlosion
-1 Rare Candy

+1-1 Ninetales
+1-1 Rapidash Wild Guard (SP isn't as prominent in Juniors last time I checked, but if he comes up against SP he'll need the help.)
+1 Communication
+1 BTS

3 Ninetales could mean drawing 9 cards, which greatly helps your setup. Max BTS means you can set up your support Ninetales super fast. And with a main attacker that only needs one energy, losing 3 of your 13 R energy shouldn't significantly hurt.