Tell me... am I an evil game designer?

[Marril]

Okay, background, I work on a FF-based online game, chiefly implementing and maintaining summons. I'd implemented the first few ones easily enough, threw in a not-so-secret bonus one that's been well-received, a one hidden off in a far corner of the game, and now... well, more background first. I've never liked the hack-and-smash mentality in a game, which means when this one went in, you weren't supposed to fight her to get the ability to summon her. Thing is, I'm assuming players are smart enough to not just attack a boss without thinking about it. I watched and snickered as the first person to get to said boss got killed. "Oh well, I'll just go level up some more" was the basic reaction.

So, basically, I need a collective opinion: Has the average RPG player descended to such a low that the only instinct you have upon seeing a boss is to try and kill it? Would a designer really be in the wrong for creating plot-based quests with no combat involved, and not telling players that killing this boss is the wrong thing to do, like I have? If not, then why call them RPGs, since that implies roleplaying, interaction, and more than just fighting? Why not just call them "run-around-and-kill-everything" games if that's the case?

 

[Absoltrainer]

Best RPG EVER!!!!
1) Zelda Orcarina of Time
2)Star Wars Knoghts Of The Old Republic ( True RPG What you said effected the outcome of the geme)
3)Star Wars Knoghts Of The Old Republic II
4) Pokemon Fire Red / Leaf green
5)Pokemon Emerald

 

[Metagross_Ex]

Okay, background, I work on a FF-based online game, chiefly implementing and maintaining summons. I'd implemented the first few ones easily enough, threw in a not-so-secret bonus one that's been well-received, a one hidden off in a far corner of the game, and now... well, more background first. I've never liked the hack-and-smash mentality in a game, which means when this one went in, you weren't supposed to fight her to get the ability to summon her. Thing is, I'm assuming players are smart enough to not just attack a boss without thinking about it. I watched and snickered as the first person to get to said boss got killed. "Oh well, I'll just go level up some more" was the basic reaction.

So, basically, I need a collective opinion: Has the average RPG player descended to such a low that the only instinct you have upon seeing a boss is to try and kill it? Would a designer really be in the wrong for creating plot-based quests with no combat involved, and not telling players that killing this boss is the wrong thing to do, like I have? If not, then why call them RPGs, since that implies roleplaying, interaction, and more than just fighting? Why not just call them "run-around-and-kill-everything" games if that's the case?

Sadly, I think that the first idea most people tink of when in a boss battle is to kill it, it just seems lgical to most people. Gone are the days of something like FFIV during Cecil's fight against his dark self (not attacking it to win).

 

[The Anaconda]

i say leave it. if they're too stupid to figure out a strategy is needed, too bad for them

 

[Marril]

Oh, I'm leaving it anyway. It's hardly my fault that nobody thinks of trying to talk to said boss, especially since she doesn't aggro. The main purpose of this thread was just to ask why people are so stupid as to think that the only thing you should do to bosses is to kill them.

 

[The Anaconda]

Oh, I'm leaving it anyway. It's hardly my fault that nobody thinks of trying to talk to said boss, especially since she doesn't aggro. The main purpose of this thread was just to ask why people are so stupid as to think that the only thing you should do to bosses is to kill them.

simply, the "graphis more important then gameplay" mentality

 

[meganium_ex_killer]

Sadly, I think that the first idea most people tink of when in a boss battle is to kill it, it just seems lgical to most people. Gone are the days of something like FFIV during Cecil's fight against his dark self (not attacking it to win).

Yeah that was hard.Took a lot of tme until I saw a Gamefaqs FAQ about it saying you must not attack.But they said you can kill it if ou bring a lot of Hi-potions:thumb:

 

[fastphil]

The main purpose of this thread was just to ask why people are so stupid as to think that the only thing you should do to bosses is to kill them.

I think maybe because 90% of other RPG games have taught people over time that "bosses" are the bad guys and need to be removed from the world. Even some of the good bosses people are taught to fight. Example: "i'll join your party if you can best me in combat" Those kinds of scenarios happen a lot in various games so people probably think that if its a "boss" it needs to be defeated.

 

[Shiloh Phoenix]

see golden sun.

 

[Marril]

Ah, but fastphil: What's the point in calling an online RPG, especially one where no role is being played and the aim is to kill everyone in sight unless he's in a town, a roleplaying game? Wouldn't I just do well to assume that people are smarter than to take the "hulk smash" mentality? I submit that a solid 85-90% of so-called "RPG" players wouldn't know how to roleplay if you gave them a fully-accredited course on it.

I think the perfect example would be Maou/Magus from Chrono Trigger. You can either take the "hulk smash" mentality and kill him, get his item and some exp, or you can spare him and get a powerful party member. The only thing is that you're given a binary choice of kill him or not—I'm assuming there are players out there who would, without knowing the predetermined consequences of each action, opt to not kill Maou and see what happens.

Thoughts?

 

[fastphil]

I think the perfect example would be Maou/Magus from Chrono Trigger. You can either take the "hulk smash" mentality and kill him, get his item and some exp, or you can spare him and get a powerful party member. The only thing is that you're given a binary choice of kill him or not—I'm assuming there are players out there who would, without knowing the predetermined consequences of each action, opt to not kill Maou and see what happens.

Thoughts?

I agree with your estimation on players that have no concept of RPGs....they are soooo used to games that force them in one direction and in order to accomplish anything you have to defeat some monster or another. Thats just the way the games and the gamers have evolved. I think thats why i liked Bioware RPGs more than most others...like KOTOR 1&2 and Jade Empire. Every decision you made affected the outcome of an event or the storyline. You can choose good or evil at every step of the way and you dont HAVE to fight everyone you come across. The good thing was they didnt leave out exp if you chose to use diplomacy to get by someone and if you chose to fight, you got exp that way as well. I'm sure most people chose the darkside and killed everything in their paths.....at some points thats a lot of fun to see how people react when you steal from them or kill everyone in the cantina (or where ever)....but its also just as fun to play the hero and see all the different outcomes.

As for Mauo, most people would probably choose to battle and then maybe hear from a friend or read on a website that if you use diplomacy you can get him on your team. People would then either reload or restart to get him. But their first instinct would be to defeat him first. Thats just the way gamers think nowadays

 

[PokePop]

I think maybe because 90% of other RPG games have taught people over time that "bosses" are the bad guys and need to be removed from the world. Even some of the good bosses people are taught to fight. Example: "i'll join your party if you can best me in combat" Those kinds of scenarios happen a lot in various games so people probably think that if its a "boss" it needs to be defeated.

Gee, Robin Hood was a Medieval RPG and Little John and Friar Tuck were "Bosses".
This "track" has been laid down for centuries, it seems. :tongue:

 

[Marril]

Adding to the topic, here's a chat log of me talking with a player about this very quest. I'm Narol. The person who got killed in the quest is Gwynne, and Cendril is some random player who popped in with some comments. This took place on the out-of-character (ooc) channel, and I just dropped the question on her without any context.

Narol oocs: Gwynne.
Gwynne oocs: yes?
Narol oocs: I have a question for you.
Gwynne oocs: okay
Narol oocs: Are you really so maniacally homicidal as to murder everything you come across as a first instinct?
Gwynne oocs: ...
Gwynne oocs: maybe...
Gwynne oocs: why do you...ask?
Narol oocs: You'll see.
Gwynne oocs: ...that doesnt sound too good
Cendril oocs: She didnt kill me when we first met ^_^.
Gwynne oocs: Because..I couldnt
Gwynne oocs: lol
Gwynne oocs: im kidding
Cendril oocs: o.o...*shivers a little*
Narol oocs: Alternatively.
Narol oocs: Would you do any favours for someone who tries to murder you?
Gwynne oocs: yes, if its in a game
Gwynne oocs: In real life...I couldnt...really do that
Gwynne oocs: I have no reason to trully hate people
Gwynne oocs: If they were able to murder me, I should do my best as to where they cannot
Gwynne oocs: So, yes

I can sum up the problem at hand with just that one question I asked: "Are you really so maniacally homicidal as to murder everything you come across as a first instinct?"

 

[moza]

If the Aimer is red, you Betcha! :lol:

I am personally not a Hard-Core gamer, but i do like a little bit of strategy, but not to much, it get's confusing :lol:

 

[Blaziken98]

Marill is 100% rigth Bosses souldn't be go level up and defeat them with an all powerful warrior. Boss battles sould consist off puzzles that make you think on your feet. Not just fight but descover there weakness or complete a task to help your defeat of them. Marill if you hadn't already you sould play Shadow of the Colossus it is an amazing game filled with none stop boss battles but not just averge ones they challenge you to think in abstract ways and use nothing but a sword and horse to defeat the Colousus after solving the puzzle to there weakness.
Keep working on it (And play Shadow!!!) Good Luck